Super powers and mass, matter and energy

[mr friendly guy]

Ok, not the most eye catching title, but I had a thought about the interaction between mass and energy and comic book characters who can manipulate mass. For the purpose of this thread, I am going to confine the discussion to comic book characters whose power is supposed to work on a scientific basis, and not one of those magic characters where the rules of magic aren't defined as well as the laws of physics. This of course allows comic writers leeway to come up with peculiar powers which may or may not work when the plot dictates.

Back to the topic. Take for example the mass gainers. These include super beings who can increase to giant size eg Elasti Girls (DC comics), Giant Man (Marvel comics etc) and some who can increase their density like Will O wisp and Vision from Marvel comics.

Lets use the example of Elasti Girl, who is stated at 5 and a half feet but can grow to 1000 feet. So she gains mass and size. How much? Well size is easy enough to work out. Her height increases 181.8 times, thus her volume would increase by a factor of 3, so 181.8 cubed or > 6 million times the volume. Mass unfortunately is harder to work out. It will definitely be more than 6 million times. Consider the fact large sauropods might reach 100 feet in length, and certainly not 1000 feet in height. So no land animal can grow to the size Elasti Girl can grow. What this means is that human bones would not be strong enough to support Elasti girl’s increased weight if they maintain the same density. This is because the cross sectional area of Elasti girl’s femur increases by a factor of 2, ie 181.8 squared, but her mass would increase at a greater rate (assuming equal density). That is mass increases by a 181.8 cubed. So her bones must somehow become stronger as well or else she will break her leg just standing up due to the increase pressure. Interestingly Ultimates #2 (2002) had 60 feet as the maximum height human bone can support someone. Hank Pym certainly grows at best 100 feet in the 616 universe, and has nothing on Elasti Girl’s 1000 feet.

At 1000 feet, Elasti girl is as tall as some skyscrapers. I have no idea how strong the substance must be to hold up such a structure, steel clearly can hold it. It would make thematic sense to me that the bones simply become denser rather than change into some new substance with a higher strength to mass ratio. Muscles must become denser to help support this increase mass, or else she wouldn’t be able to walk. Blood plasma would most probably have the same density as increasing viscosity of blood would just interfere with blood flow. Arguably the cells must themselves be denser as she would have to use more pressure to pump blood into her brain now that she is a 1000 foot giant. I have no idea how strong bone has to become, nor how to work out how much more denser this becomes to support it.

This extra muscle strength would explain why Giant Man (Pym) can match giant robots or Titans about his size.

Going on, where does this extra mass come from, and where does it go when they shrink down? There is the usual subspace extra-dimensional trope. In fact in the Marvel Handbook in the 90s its states that some beings eg the Vision disperse the extra mass extradimensionally while Will of Wisp disperses it intradimensionally. Ok, lets keep that in mind. Now lets consider the mass itself.

So unless the extra-dimensional mass starts off as the exactly the same matter as the person increasing in size, (which becomes problematic when you consider Marvel's Pym Particles can allow anyone to increase in size and mass), then it makes more sense that they mass is converted to the right type of matter on entering our dimension. Intuitively it makes more sense to me that the mass starts off as energy in the other dimension, and then converts to the right matter when entering our dimension. That is my speculation, and for all I know the extra dimensional matter is some special substance which can copy matter like DS9's changelings. However, if the mass does start off as energy, it does lead to some interesting consequences. For example, could a character simply allow this energy to enter our dimension without converting to matter? That is create immense energy blasts, given that the amount of energy that could be converted from that mass (ie tonnes) would be nuclear bomb level of yield.

Lets now go onto the matter transmuters. Here is where things get really cool. These guys change matter, eg Sersi (Marvel), Cosmic King (DC) etc. They are stated work on at least the subatomic level (duh, since changing elements requires a substance having different number of subatomic protons in the nucleus). Its unclear whether they can manipulate thing beneath protons/neutrons and down to the quark level. Lets consider the implications of what else they should be able to do with the same power set.

1. Lightning bolts

Since electricity is carried by electrons, I don't see why they shouldn't in theory be able to shoot lightning for example by moving electrons. Maybe the electrons are too small for them to "grasp" with their powers. But they can still manipulate the bigger protons and neutrons. Ok then, but they could still carry charges by firing protons.

2. Radiation blasts

Neutron radiation- Well at least neutron radiation anyway. Since they can move neutrons, why can't they just fire off neutron radiation in a particular direction. Certainly heroes might have a moral compunction against killing, but villains?

Fission - Could they not transmute a large amount of fissionable material and let it explode? In fact Sersi managed to nullify an Earth destroying Nega Bomb in Avengers vol 1 #366 by transmuting the elements which cause the explosion. Now you might say that was just dialogue rather than visuals (the bomb still had enough power to destroy a small island because Vision miscalculated how much time Sersi had left to transmute), but we have seen a Nega Bomb destroy the entire Kree Empire before. This version was a smaller version of the one that destroyed the Kree Empire.

3. Telekinetic blasts of immense power

This depends on how they move the protons and neutrons around when they transmute matter. Sersi and the Eternals for example are stated to do this with their power of their minds. So its telekinetic but on a small scale with increase precision.

Lets just assume transmuters work on a similar principle. Lets take Element Lad from Legion of Superheroes. He can transmute air into inertron (and vice versa). Inertron of course is a super dooper strong material which can hold pre crisis Superboy under "normal" conditions. For anyone interested, Superboy when under the control of Charma becomes fanatical and strong enough to snap inertron. So a trasmuter can rip apart the bonds telekinetically, they must be able to exert lots of force.

So forcefield prevents you turning them into a frog? Ok then. Lets hurl matter at intense speed with high pressures and see if we can't break it down with repeated assaults. Or try and break it down telekinetically first, and then transmute them.

4. Pheromones

Lots of characters in comic book universes have mind control powers via pheromones. Characters include Mandril (Marvel), the Purple Man (Marvel), the Mephistoid (Marvel), Charma (DC comics, post zero hour version of her) etc. Theoretically a transmuter can duplicate the substance. Keep in mind they can transmute complex alloys and some of them like Sersi, can sense the molecular structure of which they manipulate. Presumably all of them can sense the structure in some way or else it would be hard to manipulate.

5. Matter to energy

Now this has the potential for abuse. In Final Crisis Legion of 3 Worlds, the villainous Cosmic King saved Superman Prime from kryptonite poisoning by changing the kryptonite to yellow sunlight. That’s right, he can convert matter to energy. He can at least manipulate the light waves to a certain frequency and wavelength to give it a yellow colour.

The first obvious implication for a comic book fan is, lets change yellow sunlight to a colour Kryptonians and Daxamites can’t absorb, like red.

The first obvious implication for a scientist might be, can’t he just create a giant explosion like when matter and anti matter meet? Since mass and energy must be conserved… This would be of course deadly for him, but it depends on the range of the attack and the amount of matter he converts.

The next implication is he can also manipulate bosons as well as fermions. Bosons are the force carrier particles, eg photons for electromagnestism, gluons for the strong nuclear force and the theoretical graviton for gravity. Interestingly in the Marvel Handbook of the 90s, Eternals such as Sersi as supposed to fly by manipulation of gravitons. Now they might not necessarily be able to manipulate other bosons like gluons for example, but if they can manipulate gravitons and photons, could they not do a Magneto or Graviton and repel people with the fundamental forces.

On another side note the futuristic heroes from Legion of Super heroes Light Lass and Star Boy can decrease and increase “mass” respectively. Unfortunately comic book writers seem to use the term weight and mass interchangeably. They work by affecting gravity, rather than the matter, so in a sense they are affecting weight even though writers say they are affecting mass. To somehow affect mass, they would have to be able to manipulate the Higgs Boson. I will come back to that later.

6. Is there a powergamer in the super hero team?

Ok, this is just a thought and might not work out. But say the matter manipulator could combine the ability of a mass manipulator for a combo attack.

Say for example a matter manipulator can get a regular supply of mass to transmute into energy for an attack. Now can the matter manipulator get this increase mass without a team mate with the required power?

Two options spring to mind. The first one is Pym Particles with the magical, er I mean the ability to gain mass in a manner beyond our science to explain, but not the science of the Marvel universe.
Of course if you have Pym Particles, a more obvious thing to do with them is to make a super strong character into a 100 feet giant. But since the Avengers have no sense of maximising powers, he only uses this on non super powered humans like himself and Hawkeye.

The second one is if they can manipulate bosons, perhaps they can do the same with the Higgs Boson to give matter more mass to convert to energy (I have no idea if that’s doable, but supposedly it gives matter mass).

Thoughts?

[avatarxprime]

As to your discussion on size increasing, you wouldn't necessarily want bones to get substantially denser as that means they becomes stiffer and more subject to fracture. Given all the fighting that size changing heroes tend to get into, it wouldn't be the best situation for them. Honestly, they'd need to have a radical alteration to their internal anatomy to support their increase in size. You'd probably want their skeleton to conform more to the design of a bat or bird in terms of sections of more dense bone (supporting weight) vs. sections of less dense (supporting torsional strain) than the standard human configuration. You'd also want radical alterations in the various organs in terms of size and amount of body mass they account for when going up as the body just doesn't scale.


Also, just for what you're taking about with Pym Particles, you're pretty much dead on for the idea. Here's a page from a comic where they expand on it some. So basically, all the powers that we see all of these heroes use, all rely on Pym Particle manipulation.

[Tsyroc]

That's interesting. That would also explain why in his last solo series Wonder Man was able to change size without having the additional Pym particle treatment that Goliath had.

[mr friendly guy]

So Pym Particles also give Hank increase durability and strength as well as size. It however isn't clear whether it also increases density, since Vision gained strength and durability by increasing density, but AFAIK Wonder Man doesn't. It might be easier to simply assume Giant Man gains durability but not density, as that will open up a whole lot of problems in trying to work out the new mass.

There is also obviously a limit to how much durability Pym Particles give when growing in size, or else there wouldn't be a 100 foot limit (again the increase mass on a smaller surface area would lead to bones breaking). Presumably this leads to

a. If Pym Particles could be "configured" to give durability (ala Wonder Man) as well as size (ala Giant Man) then the recipient could grow bigger than 1000 foot
b. Or if we just get a superbeing who is more durable, say an Eternal, Thor even Spiderman, they would be able to surpass the 100 foot limit.

BTW avatarxprime, which issue and comic is that from?

[avatarxprime]

Well I figure Vision's density powers are "messed up" size changing as implied in the panel. Suppose that Vision is locked in terms of his volume (cause Ultron couldn't duplicate the process properly), so when he tries to grow he gains the mass that comes with it, but doesn't change his overall size and thus becomes more dense. The reverse process covers becoming less dense and easily explains why he can function when he should be losing a rather significant chunk of his mass, he's really not, it's just dimension shifted and he can function for the same reason anyone who shrinks or grows with Pym particles can, magic other dimensional mass shifting.

Also, the image is from FF volume 2 #16, the final issue wherein they wank Scott Lang into someone who can solo Dr. Doom.

[mr friendly guy]

Well the Vision's "standard" mass is 300 pounds, and he can increase it to 90 tons (short tons). Thus that's a 600 times increase in mass.

http://www.comicvine.com/vision/4005-1504/

Hank Pym's height isn't given, but lets assume roughly 6 feet. If he grows to 100 feet, that's 16 2/3 times his height, so his mass would increase by the cubed amount of this, ie 4600 times. So I guess you can look at the Vision as messed up size changing, not only does he not grow in size, he also can't match a size growing character's increase in mass.

Of course, DC characters which don't use Pym particles to grow in size, still have the same problem of trying to explain their extra durability, especially when they can grow taller than 100 feet.

[Tsyroc]

Well the Vision's "standard" mass is 300 pounds, and he can increase it to 90 tons (short tons). Thus that's a 600 times increase in mass.

http://www.comicvine.com/vision/4005-1504/

Hank Pym's height isn't given, but lets assume roughly 6 feet. If he grows to 100 feet, that's 16 2/3 times his height, so his mass would increase by the cubed amount of this, ie 4600 times. So I guess you can look at the Vision as messed up size changing, not only does he not grow in size, he also can't match a size growing character's increase in mass.

Of course, DC characters which don't use Pym particles to grow in size, still have the same problem of trying to explain their extra durability, especially when they can grow taller than 100 feet.

I think the excuse for Giganta's growth, additional strength and durability is magic, mostly to piss off Batman. I think there's supposed to be some sort of "sciency" explanation for what Atom Smasher (Nuklon) does. I think he got his start changing his mass and then later added the size changing thing later on. He's the godson of the original Atom so I'm not sure how much his name selection has to do with how his powers work and how much of it is in homage to his godfather/hero.

[Tsyroc]

In the Marvel's Ultimate line they pretty much pointed out how much it would suck ass to have growth powers in the modern day. Against the military and other supers you are just a bigger target unless there some way to add more protection than what is naturally added with the increase in size and mass. In certain situations he might be very effective but in a way he's kind of like a mech. A high value asset just waiting for some farmer, with little training, to take him out with an RPG.

Hank Pym also had to protect his eyes from the amount of light they would be able to collect because of their increased size. There were also concerns about calorie intake and when and when not to eat. Don't eat and then shrink.

To me, it seems like the two DC characters I mentioned in my previous post who increase in size are more resistant to damage than the Marvel characters who are only changing size via Pym particles. When you get to Wonder Man and Goliath/Power Man they are supposed to start out superhumanly durable. IIRC they can also grow much taller than a regular person using Pym particles because they are essentially "energy beings". Personally, I liked it better when the two of them were physical beings with "Ionically Powered Cells". That made more sense when it came to them being physical beings and having skin durability rated on the Mohs hardness scale.

Back during "Operation Galactic Storm" they adjusted the strength level of people who grew via Pym particles. Previously at his regular max height Hank Pym could lift about 25 tons. During "Operation Galactic Storm", Hawkeye was pissed about being left out because he wasn't powerful switched back to Goliath and in his max height he could match the Thing's 85 ton max lift. Isn't retconning and updating fun?

[avatarxprime]

Hank Pym's height isn't given, but lets assume roughly 6 feet. If he grows to 100 feet, that's 16 2/3 times his height, so his mass would increase by the cubed amount of this, ie 4600 times. So I guess you can look at the Vision as messed up size changing, not only does he not grow in size, he also can't match a size growing character's increase in mass.

Well it's a little better using the numbers stated on the Marvel wiki, which gives Hank's height as 6'11", so it ends up being an increase of ~3000 times (14.5x increase in size), so only a 5x difference rather than 8x. Also Hank can grow taller than 100 feet now, but only for a short period of time.


As to the matter of DC characters, a lot of them seem to have no distinct explanation given for their powers. Atom Smasher's sciencey description is based on him being able to increase the spacing between his atoms to increase his size with another power allowing him to gain mass so that he isn't losing density. That implies some kind of weird manipulation of the electromagnetic force and Higgs Bosons, which means he could be a heck of a lot more powerful than he is displayed as if he pushed his abilities.

[Batman]

In my experience, trying to explain superhero powers is usually an exercise in futility. You either end up with an explanation that really doesn't explain anything, it just slaps a label on the magic/technobabble whatever is going on, or you end up with an explanation that does not work.
I mean let's take my favourite victim for this kind of discussion, Clark. The guy supposedly works on solar power. 'Ah, but he can metabolize solar energy extremely efficiently'. So how does he metabolize sunlight that never actually hits him? The man has a surface area of what, 4 square meters including the cape? I don't think the solar system (and possibly the universe) has existed long enough for him to absorb enough solar energy to pull the stunts he routinely does.

[biostem]

Growth and shrinking powers always annoyed me - the human body simply will not work properly if scaled up - heck, even real people who got up to 8+ feet started having serious spine, leg, and other problems. Bone and muscle simply o not suffice at the large sizes depicted.

It's the same with powers as "simple" as invulnerability - I mean, I had to prove that I had certain immunizations in order to go to college - I can't imagine that Ma & Pa Kent were good enough to fake those, when Clark went school. I also can't imagine that he never had to pass a physical or anything.

Regardless, these powers are more often than not chalked up to some mystery particle or physics-bending ability...

[Batman]

Actually in the US I think the Kents had a decent chance of weaseling out of medical shots on 'Waah! Religion!' grounds, and for the last-call it 30 years or so?-his superpowers didn't kick in until he was a teenager/twen so he might simply have gotten those shots.

[mr friendly guy]

Hank Pym's height isn't given, but lets assume roughly 6 feet. If he grows to 100 feet, that's 16 2/3 times his height, so his mass would increase by the cubed amount of this, ie 4600 times. So I guess you can look at the Vision as messed up size changing, not only does he not grow in size, he also can't match a size growing character's increase in mass.

Well it's a little better using the numbers stated on the Marvel wiki, which gives Hank's height as 6'11", so it ends up being an increase of ~3000 times (14.5x increase in size), so only a 5x difference rather than 8x. Also Hank can grow taller than 100 feet now, but only for a short period of time.

I must have somehow missed that part about Hank's height when I skim read various sources. At 6'11" that would make Hank taller than Thor who is only 6'6". I don't ever recall him being that tall, and always thought he was around Cap's height.

[mr friendly guy]

In my experience, trying to explain superhero powers is usually an exercise in futility. You either end up with an explanation that really doesn't explain anything, it just slaps a label on the magic/technobabble whatever is going on, or you end up with an explanation that does not work.
I mean let's take my favourite victim for this kind of discussion, Clark. The guy supposedly works on solar power. 'Ah, but he can metabolize solar energy extremely efficiently'. So how does he metabolize sunlight that never actually hits him? The man has a surface area of what, 4 square meters including the cape? I don't think the solar system (and possibly the universe) has existed long enough for him to absorb enough solar energy to pull the stunts he routinely does.

Some Superman fanboy once said there was an issue where one of Clark's enemies speculated that solar energy just helped him metabolise some technobabble reaction where he draws his real power from, which would most probably be from subspace er I mean an extradimensional source. That makes more sense in a comic book physics type of way than he gets it purely from solar energy. This was pre Flashpoint reboot though.

However my main point isn't so much to try and totally explain super powers, but to explore the implications of those powers. Just like in the old SW vs ST threads we would talk about the NDF effects of phasers, discuss their implications (ie limitations) without going into how it actually achieves the NDF effects. In this thread, the implication are that the same process which gives size growers their large size, must also increase durability as well or else they wouldn't be able to stand.

[biostem]

Well, here's a question regarding these growth powers:

1. Could Pym, say, shrink down to his smallest size, grab a small gold nugget, and have it grown back up to normal size as he does?

2. Could he shrink down to his smallest size, eat some little crumb of food, get filled up w/ that, then expand back to normal size, and still be full?

3. Could he, say, wrap a strong wire around a robot's neck, then cause it to shrink, thereby decapitating said robot?


I'm really curious about how this size changing interacts w/ conservation of energy or matter - you can't just make atoms bigger, so either mass is added or taken away, or it's shunted/drawn from somewhere else.

Also, are the various mechanisms that cause these changes required to maintain the size change - can Pym shrink someone then just abandon them at that size?

[mr friendly guy]

Well its possible to imprison someone by shrinking them down. The Avengers did that to Kree Scientists during operation galactic storm.

[avatarxprime]

I must have somehow missed that part about Hank's height when I skim read various sources. At 6'11" that would make Hank taller than Thor who is only 6'6". I don't ever recall him being that tall, and always thought he was around Cap's height.

I agree, when I read that I couldn't believe it and they didn't have a citation for it so *shrug*

As to the Superman thing, I would go with something similar if I had to explain it, kinda like the retcon they did with Cyclops and his optic blast. Originally he absorbed and stored solar energy and emitted it as his blasts, now he absorbs energy in general (but does solar best) and uses it to power a dimensional aperture that connects him to another dimension which is the source of his beams.

Well, here's a question regarding these growth powers:

1. Could Pym, say, shrink down to his smallest size, grab a small gold nugget, and have it grown back up to normal size as he does?

2. Could he shrink down to his smallest size, eat some little crumb of food, get filled up w/ that, then expand back to normal size, and still be full?

3. Could he, say, wrap a strong wire around a robot's neck, then cause it to shrink, thereby decapitating said robot?

1. For as long as he holds on to it, it reverts once no longer under the influence of his Pym particles unless he specially treats it. Alternatively, it might just keep growing. He once had a gun, that Scott Lang stole, which shrunk anything it hit, but it had a problem where it was unstable and continued shrinking it until it ceased to exist (the problem was eventually corrected).

2. I'm not entirely sure. I think either him or the Atom (from DC) had rules about eating during a size change and then reverting.

3. Maybe, in the recent Avengers A.I. series he caused handcuffs placed on him to shrink so they opened up under the strain, so it would depend on the strength of the wire, maybe an adamantium or carbonadium (a more flexible version of adamantium) would be able to handle it.

[Tsyroc]

2. I'm not entirely sure. I think either him or the Atom (from DC) had rules about eating during a size change and then reverting.

I think at some point it has been mentioned in comics for both. It's definitely mentioned for Hank Pym in the Ultimates, but I'm pretty sure I saw the Atom discuss the same thing too.


Back on Hank Pym. I think he's generally listed as 5' 11" in most versions of the Handbook of the Marvel Universe. 6' 11" is definitely too tall as his base height. I think he tended to
go around at ~ 10ft or so when he was Giant Man/Goliath until he needed to be bigger (or smaller). It might have been as much as 15ft. He was usually shown as being bigger than
the other Avengers when he was in costume. Wouldn't want the guy known for being tall to be shorter than Thor or the Hulk.

I liked it when he combined Ant-man and Giant Man so his costume was mix of both.

[mr friendly guy]

This just occurred to me. With matter transmuters they are taking several different actions simultaneously. For example they can transmute non living matter into living matter and vice versa. * Given how much more complicated living creatures are, and how the change is pretty much instant, the number of molecular bonds they would have to manipulate at once is immense. This would suggest at least a high amount of "computing power" and at least fast perception. The implication is they can react with their minds pretty fast if not with their bodies, and even with the latter if they perceive things earlier, they can react earlier.

* for example Sersi changed her Brethren handcuffs into flowers and has been turning humans into stone.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Going on, where does this extra mass come from, and where does it go when they shrink down? There is the usual subspace extra-dimensional trope. In fact in the Marvel Handbook in the 90s its states that some beings eg the Vision disperse the extra mass extradimensionally while Will of Wisp disperses it intradimensionally. Ok, lets keep that in mind. Now lets consider the mass itself.

So unless the extra-dimensional mass starts off as the exactly the same matter as the person increasing in size, (which becomes problematic when you consider Marvel's Pym Particles can allow anyone to increase in size and mass), then it makes more sense that they mass is converted to the right type of matter on entering our dimension. Intuitively it makes more sense to me that the mass starts off as energy in the other dimension, and then converts to the right matter when entering our dimension. That is my speculation, and for all I know the extra dimensional matter is some special substance which can copy matter like DS9's changelings.

The matter/energy of that dimension is in this weird, quantum-like undefined state where it's everything at once. There was an Iron Man where Iron Man (back when James Rhodes was Iron Man) entered that dimension, and he had a very disorienting experience where he was growing and shrinking at the same time and so forth. Some of the matter from that dimension leaked into the laboratory and turned into grey sorta-living ooze that vanished as soon as the portal was turned off.

This is all assuming they haven't retconned the whole thing since I read it, of course.

[avatarxprime]

I've been thinking about the matter transmutators, it doesn't necessarily need to be an issue of massive information processing (well it could be for the ones who can do it on a large scale with very fine control), but for more generic things, it could just be an example of expert recall like with chess masters. The matter manipulators can perceive the bonds and states of matter and after years of manipulating them get to recognize certain states and can rapidly work with them.

[mr friendly guy]

I had a bit more time to think about what transmuters could also do.

1. Biological warfare

Great Supervillain possibilities here. Consider the fact that polio can now be synthesised in a lab. I have heard this argument used against vaccinations because once we eradicated polio, we stop vaccinating after a few years. Then some nutjob can create it in the lab and release it.

Generally if transmuters can change living things into other living things or non living things into living (Sersi did it to 3 of malestrom's lieutenants, changed some hi tech handcuffs into flowers etc) they should be able to synthesise some viruses provided they know what they "look like." After all viruses cannot be as complicated as eukaryotic cells.

The main one though is the flu, just tweaked things here and there (assuming transmuter has some knowledge of how the flu works).

2. Copy superpowers

The Deviants once tried to compel Sersi to transmute them so they could also form a Uni mind as they wanted to challenge the Celestials. So is there some dead power houses in the Marvel whose body we could look at and try and copy his molecular structure? Well yeah. Legion, X-Man, Sentry at one time or another.

Its obvious not going to be like Amazo with almost instantaneous copying, and it will require a bit of study and maybe trial and error. But a Supervillain who keeps to the shadows has time on their side.

3. Sound powers

Ok sound can be used in comics to do all sorts of cool stuff, like hypnotise, disrupt a Green Lantern's concentration (hypersonic weapons) etc. Well sound is the vibration of the molecules in the surrounding medium. Since transmuters can also manipulate things on a molecular level by moving one part to another, could they not make air vibrate at certain rates (after practice) and duplicate the sound effects.

4. Elemental bending

Manipulating matter on a subatomic scale can change one substance to another, but if we just do in on a molecular scale, we should just change its shape. Think the Legend of Korra. Imagine surrounding themselves with <insert fictional metal armour>. Like Toph Bei Fong.

5. Fast movements

Speaking of changing the shape of things. If we postulate that they transmute by moving molecules/subatomic particles here and there, we have to wonder how fast they can move them. Considering they can transmute ridiculously hard to destroy substances, eg Captain America's shield, inerton (LSH) then we could say transmuters can hurl molecules with intense force, and hence at fast speeds.

Now can they do the same to their own molecular structure?
1. IIRC the Alpha Flight hero Northstar flies by causing his molecules to move at immense speeds, rather than simply the brain telling his muscles to move.
2. We see the Eternals reconstitute their own molecular structure after being disintegrated by Blastaar in Avengers volume 1 #310.
3. So some matter transmuters like Sersi of the Eternals can control her own molecular structure, although I would argue all transmuters could theoretically do the same.
4. So instead of hurling some other substance's molecules at immense speeds, why don't you move yourself at intense speeds? That is telekinetically hurl yourself away.

There are a few problems. Your body may not be able to withstand those intense speeds, even if your powers somehow hold it together. Its going to be painful, and we know transmuters can still feel pain. I would argue an Eternal's body can take the immense speeds, as we see Makkari of the Eternals move at intense speeds. In an issue of Quasar we beat the Runner in a race. Also note that Eternals can teleport, but the Marvel Handbook states they find it uncomfortable, so this type of trick has its price.

6. Magnetism

I will need to think more on this, but there was a chapter in the science of supervillains on why Electro becomes Magneto if he moves. Since transmuters must be able to move protons to change one substance to another, would this not generate a magnetic field when it moves?

Like I said, I will need to read that chapter again, but I will put it out there.

7. Economic disruption

This is going to be fun. Consider that in a battle with the Young Gods, Sersi transmuted a pool of water one of the gods was attacking her with to silicon, since her opponent can only manipulate water because of.... of... um.... yeah lets not think this too hard. Now it didn't strain her and the pool if we are conservative is at least 2 x 2 x 2 metres, ie 8 cubic metres (it easily surrounded her opponent).

Lets assume each day a transmuter changes 8 cubic metres of some worthless stuff into the equivalent volume of gold, 2 times per hour, 8 hours a day, 365 days a year (since it doesn't strain them much, you would think they would be able to do much more). Yes I know gold is different from silicon, but Sersi also transmuted gold to pay the Heroes for Hire.

That's about 46720 cubic metres of gold created in a year. The density of gold is 19300 kg / cubic metre, so the transmuter synthesises 901,696,000 kg of gold per year at a conservative rate. Now lets look at value of gold. As I type this its about $41,532.66 USD per kilogram. That means they generate about $37.4 trillion dollars worth of gold in a year. That's bigger than the GDP of the top 4 real world countries for 2013 combine (ie generates more value in goods than the US + China + Japan + Germany).

Now I know gold is going to be devalued eventually by this trick, so then lets move onto other precious metals like silver, rare earths, lithium etc. Also lithium has the potential to change the electric car industry (Dr Manhattan actually did this in Watchmen by making lots of lithium). Uranium and thorium might also change the world with the nuclear industry.

Since this is comics, there are also rare metals in the Marvel universe like vibranium and adamatium which could net you a fortune.

A transmuter could change a shit hole country into an economic superpower, but not a military one. Imagine doing this for a regional power.

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Transmuters can do so much if you just think through the logical implications of this.

[madd0ct0r]

this tennis ball? now made of U-238. catch.