LaCroix wrote:Just how would he meddle with us? What could a medieval warlord with a few (mediocre) magic tricks be able to give in order to gain influence? And remember, the moment he opens his portal, he can't close it, anymore - the moment people find out (and they will - you can't hold this kind of thing secret for very long in our time) , people will realize that this is middle earth, and then its O-N (with capital letters)...
You seem to forget that
1. we know what an asshole Sauron is
2. While his powers seem enticing for a middle earth peasant or even prince, his abilities and powers are nothing that anybody in first world wouldn't be able to emulate with the help of "SCIENCE!"
Tiriol wrote:Yeah, a mediocre magic trick of shapeshifting (it's never said that he can't take on new forms, just that he can no longer appear fair and pleasant), mental domination, telepathy, summoning spirits of the dead etc. Most of those tricks he has actually used to a good result, even in the book: Pippin, a member of a race unusually resiliant t outside domination and temptation, was catatonic after a brief discussion with Sauron and that's when Sauron was fairly quick with him. Saruman came under his control (Gandalf makes a convincing hypothesis that Saruman didn't have much of a choice after first making contact with Sauron, that he was compelled to make reports to the Dark Tower and though he could try to lie to Sauron, even a master Wizard and a being of the same near-divine origin as Sauron himself, he couldn't do so well enough or shield his thoughts from the Dark Lord) and Denethor, who actually had an advantage with the Seeing-Stone, went insane. Sauron has enough power to make just about everyone subservient to him with very few exceptions - even during the Second Age only few had the strength and will to face Sauron with his Ring. And those were near-mythical beings when compared to the beings of the Third Age, Aragorn and Gandalf being notable exceptions.
1. We know that as readers of LotR, but Sauron's pretty good at lying. He might go for the strategy of pretending that the LotR is a major piece of propaganda and that he was portrayed unfairly. And if he sends Mannish agents first, they would pretty much think that he is a divine ruler, not a demonic overlord.
2. Tell me, what SCIENCE allows you to crush someone's willpower and turn him into a catatonic puppet parroting your words with no heed to outside world? What SCIENCE allows you to change shape or to convince your greatest enemy to make you into his closest advisor after he has defeated your army and dragged you in chains into prison? Was Saddam Hussein not SCIENCE enough for that? And how the fuck does SCIENCE make someone virtually immortal (like Sauron did with the Nazgûl - the backstory doesn't mention how long it took for them to become wraiths, but it wasn't that quick) or let him come back from the dead?
How did I in fact dance around your statement, now when the posts are in context (which I do notice you cleverly avoided doing)? All what I can say about "mediocre" magic tricks is that I don't know how you define being "mediocre", so I must at least give you that, it's so subjective statement. I notice that you dropped your SCIENCE! when called on it, though. It's almost as if... YOU were doing the dance.Lacroix wrote:You danced around my statements quite well, but still, being able to shift your shape, dominate the will of one person, cast a shadow over land, etc, are not that great magic feats, after all, and still, what would be a gain of having Sauron on your side?
And as I've stated, Sauron can spend centuries building up his base of power and network of contacts and influence. It's not like he just showed up in Eregion and they instantly started doing his bidding, he actually had to gain influence on them first and sink his hooks into their ambitions. And with the Ring in his hand, he can do that in a matter of years at most - of course, Eregion was populated with Elves, not with (mortal) Men, who just tend to have a somewhat different view of timetable and time management than effectively immortal Elves. Sauron turned Ar-Pharazon from his greatest foe into his little lackey, who sacrificed humans, worshipped Morgoth of Elder Days as a god, made Sauron his chief advisor and the high priest of entire Numenor and attacked the Valar at Sauron's suggestion. And that was without Sauron having any contacts within the King's close circle (that we know of) beforehand.
Firstly, money can't buy the kind of influence that Sauron can gain. It doesn't matter how much you give money to someone, he still chooses to obey you or go along with you. Sauron doesn't give that option, as witnessed in Saruman and Pippin. You have no choice but to obey him and his commands. He can drive you catatonic without lifting a finger to do so. Do you intend to throw huge stacks of cash on someone's head until they are plummeled to brain-death?Bending the will of a person? Nice, but with money, you can buy as much influence as you want to.
Secondly, Sauron can influence a huge amount of people directly (that is, maintaining a mental connection between him and them) and bend them to his will. His entire army lost its will to fight the moment Sauron turned his attention from them to Mount Doom and after his demise, every single creature who was bound to his will was driven insane or lost all hope. You don't do that kind of thing with money. No matter how god-awfully rich Bill Gates is, his existence isn't the single driving force behind a veritable army that will become filled with despairing and insane men and women incapable of any real action.
That wasn't the case in the Second Age nor it was the case during the many centuries in the Third Age when Sauron was gathering his forces and consolidating his hold on power. As I stated previously, Sauron can afford to think on a VERY long-term scale: if he had lived on our Earth, he would have single-handedly seen the rise and fall of the Roman Empire and the rise and fall of the British Empire - and the rise of the Egyptian and civilization to boot, as well. Why the hell would he attack an unknown enemy without gathering some intelligence first and WHEN that intelligence shows how ludicrously outclassed he is militarily, why wouldn't he try to bridge that gap, gather more resources etc.? It's not like he can die of old age so he has to hurry up. The only factor that may speed up his plans is how the portals work, how open/hidden they are etc. Otherwise he has plenty of time to do anything he wants.Military power - which was the base motivator for most who joined him (they knew he would win, anyway, as Saruman stated) - not possible - his armies are outdated and almost useless.