The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug (spoliers!)

[Ted C]

Finally saw it. I appear to have become acclamated to PJ's story-changing antics, as I just rolled with whatever he did and enjoyed the movie (pretending it had nothing to do with the novel).

[Simon_Jester]

What got me is how they expanded some parts but shrank others like Beorn. Beorn is such a minor character who is just stuck in the film because he was in the book.

To be fair, he also resolved the problem the dwarves had at the end of the first movie- that they were being pursued by aggressive goblins/orcs on wargback. Beorn serves to scare off the pursuers and provide the dwarves with the means to move fast enough to escape that danger.

[Ted C]

What got me is how they expanded some parts but shrank others like Beorn. Beorn is such a minor character who is just stuck in the film because he was in the book.

To be fair, he also resolved the problem the dwarves had at the end of the first movie- that they were being pursued by aggressive goblins/orcs on wargback. Beorn serves to scare off the pursuers and provide the dwarves with the means to move fast enough to escape that danger.

Actually, at the end of part 1, I had the impression that travel by eagle had left the orcs and wargs far behind. There was no orc problem at the end of the first movie. The opening of part 2 partly negated the eagle rescue.

[Covenant]

I'm a huge Tolkein fan but I have no problem with the artistic licence taken for these films. Early on I decided that if I was ever going to enjoy any of these, I had to see them as a really hodge-podge "What if...?" tale and I have so far really enjoyed the off-the-rails bits. I'm seeing it as a bit of added excitement, where I am genuinely surprised about the events, rather than something to be upset about. This, to me, does not seem to change the source material out of disdain, but out of a childish glee for the setting and materials. So it's a hugely fun ride, with boisterous acting and gorgeous scenery.

I felt the opening scenes were the worst in the movie, by far. In 3DHFR the stone set looked horrific, and I really felt they could have just more naturally moved into the Beorn segment as they did in the book. The running and running was a bit annoying. The copy-paste CGI ponies were also annoying. It's sad because I knew I would like the movie, but was frustrated with that section. It was a step back from Bree. It also makes the Beorn bits come out of nowhere and will make Beorn's reappearance somewhat nonsensical. The book had the same issues but I felt it had an echo of the original meeting with Bilbo and was one of those odd moments of fairytale wonderment like Tom Bombadil. What they have now isn't bad but I'm hoping there's more in the extended cut. Also didn't like his makeup.

I liked the addition of Tauriel, though I would have liked more Galadriel too. I think the fight in Laketown was unnecessary, as was the healing bit, though it was such a nice scene overall that I can see them wanting to shoehorn it in there. I think you could have done that whole section differently, but turning the barrel-ride into a war was interesting. I enjoyed it but I don't think I would have signed off on it, personally. We could have done other things with that time and even if some people react badly to the love triangle I think we could have maybe done some more of that in the last movie, when a good amount of the Dwarfs are meant to die. Not rage worthy, but I do think it really makes their job harder for the next movie.

The elves seemed way over-cocky in this movie. I liked how, at several points, Legolas was in real danger of being killed but was saved by timely intervention from someone else. Both Thorin and Tauriel saved him from being stabbed in the back, and I liked the idea that this is a rougher, less qualified Legolas who is going to get humbled over the course of the two movies. The edge he had early on and then the shock at seeing himself bleed supported that.

Liked the design of Smaug, wished he had four legs. But not a big deal. Did not like the way he got tricked in the mine, if only because it seemed overly silly. They could have combined the "Hey over here!" scene with the one in the forges really easily, by going right from Bilbo fucking stuff up to the Dwarfs having to escape, Thorin and co' doing the mineshaft fight, and ending up in the forges. Especially justified because it would highlight how Smaug doesn't give a shit about most of the Dwarfs, he just wants to kill Thorin. That would make them both seem dangerously single-minded and be a good metaphor.

Also didn't like the big gold statue. I felt like they should have known that had no chance of working. When Smaug was walking across the tops of the forges, he wasn't burning his feet. He seemed unperturbed. I think it was meant to be a thing like "You want gold, Smaug? How can you resist this!" and he's like "It's so beautiful!" and then it blows up on him, but it didn't come out that way. It seemed like a terrible plan that had no hope of working.

What I was hoping is that they were melting the gold then driving it down one of those channels, going to trap Smaug so he falls down, and then force feed him a river of molten gold. Horribly wounded, Smaug would stagger out (as he does, though I might have also had him be blinded in one eye and maybe tattered in the wings so he's clearly in a terrible state and cannot defend himself) and get himself killed.

Also, I would have enjoyed if that fight had broken some of Smaug's diamond waistcoat away (which they also did not emphasize well enough) so that it was clear that Smaug was basically invulnerable BEFORE but now he's weakened and killable. This would give me some idea that the Dwarfs even had a chance of success at their plan, which as it stands it feels like they didn't. That's not game ruining--Thorin's WTF face and Bilbo's "Oh god what have we done" comment make it seem like this was just a HORRIBLE PLAN that never had a chance of success. Which is okay, they can be flawed.

Anyway, not a great movie, but a very enjoyable one. Saw it twice, enjoyed it a lot, recommended it to others. Not setting a high bar, but when I hit the Bathroom afterwards there was a little 5 year old kid correcting his dad on the timeline of the movie, and the young dad had clearly read the book recently too. The fact that it's able to be watched and understood, and loved, by a kid like that is something Tolkein would have liked. Gets my approval.

[Tiriol]

Also, I would have enjoyed if that fight had broken some of Smaug's diamond waistcoat away (which they also did not emphasize well enough) so that it was clear that Smaug was basically invulnerable BEFORE but now he's weakened and killable. This would give me some idea that the Dwarfs even had a chance of success at their plan, which as it stands it feels like they didn't. That's not game ruining--Thorin's WTF face and Bilbo's "Oh god what have we done" comment make it seem like this was just a HORRIBLE PLAN that never had a chance of success. Which is okay, they can be flawed.

From what I remember, Smaug DOESN'T have a diamond waistcoat in this movie series. They're all just normal dragon scales on his belly, one which was ripped off by a Black Arrow fired by Bard's ancestor and hasn't healed ever since.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, and that's the grounds for complaint. By trying to increase the drama of Bard's story (unnecessarily), they undermine the impact of the massive amount of time and CGI they spent on the dwarves' fight with Smaug.

[JME2]

I'm guessing the whole 'Thrush tells Bard about Thermal Exhaust Port" wasn't going to work with their depiction as well.

Similarly, I do like how they got around Bilbo understanding the Mirkwood Spiders -- that with the Ring on, they're speaking Black Speech.

[Covenant]

From what I remember, Smaug DOESN'T have a diamond waistcoat in this movie series. They're all just normal dragon scales on his belly, one which was ripped off by a Black Arrow fired by Bard's ancestor and hasn't healed ever since.

Yeah, no real diamond waistcoat here.

He has a sparse coin or two stuck to his tummy tum tum, but that's about it. You notice that when he crawls overhead and one or two falls down. His nickname is Smaug the Golden, so it would have been entirely reasonable to cover his undersides with gold. Perhaps they did one render pass with that and decided he looked more like Sparklesmaug the Blingy and decided to scrap it, but I think you could have kept it just on his gut and left it there.

Plus, they very rarely show his undersides in much of any lighting. He could have shown it off once (for example, like in the book when Smaug demonstrates his invulnerable magnificence) and then left it hidden the rest. But when Smaug goes for his Kraft Cheese bath (not creating heat effects around the gold made it look like room-temperature Velveeta) at the end he could have left and been red and pruney, devoid of his coat and clearly in bad shape.

But you are correct, they didn't show any of that and did rework the backstory.

By trying to increase the drama of Bard's story (unnecessarily), they undermine the impact of the massive amount of time and CGI they spent on the dwarves' fight with Smaug.

They also enlarged Bard's part from a simple hero to a potential rival and semi-antagonist, smuggler, rabble-rouser, and fellow with a genetic memory of how to fire a Dwarf ballistae. I didn't care for that myself, but I figured people might balk at the idea of normal bowmen killing a dragon the size of a small plane. Having it be a bit of anti-dragon Artillery makes a degree of sense... but honestly, seeing how poorly it did, it again feels like a terrible idea. Bard's ancestor banged a single scale, what, three times? And then it only brought a scale off? Okay, fine, but unless you have like 10 Windbows how the crap are you going to take down a dragon? Smaug may be bigger than the average dragon in existence these days, but we do not really know that for certain. We have nothing else to compare it to. Anyway, again--it felt like the plan was never going to work, so giving Girion some shit for not hitting a fist-sized bullseye on a fast moving aerial target 5 times.... I don't know. Maybe Dwarfs and Elfs can do it but I think it's pretty damn impressive he hit as many times as he did.

I think Bard was a major weakpoint in this movie. He looks too Elfy in some ways, and also lost a bit of the (small) character he had before to make him scowling and angry. I totally understand their desire to enlarge Bard's part so that he does not come out of nowhere, but honestly, there were a lot of other ways to do this that I think would have been better. But it wasn't bad. Nothing was super bad. Just things I felt were weaker than they could have been.

I do wonder if they'll abandon the Thrush entirely. Now that the story of the empty scale is known, to Bard especially, I doubt he will need to be informed of it by the Thrush. Which is too bad, I really like the talking animals.

I am worried that if they do not have a talking Thrush at all then Bilbo's contribution to the dragon slaying is nil, and also it will probably mean they nix the magic Ravens (Roac I believe) who help Thorin deliver messages while they're blockaded. The ravens are a powerful old fantasy symbol, and related to other "king under the mountain" mythologies, so it would be sad to see it go.

[Civil War Man]

I do wonder if they'll abandon the Thrush entirely. Now that the story of the empty scale is known, to Bard especially, I doubt he will need to be informed of it by the Thrush. Which is too bad, I really like the talking animals.

I am worried that if they do not have a talking Thrush at all then Bilbo's contribution to the dragon slaying is nil, and also it will probably mean they nix the magic Ravens (Roac I believe) who help Thorin deliver messages while they're blockaded. The ravens are a powerful old fantasy symbol, and related to other "king under the mountain" mythologies, so it would be sad to see it go.

I just take it as a given that they nixed the thrush. Every change they made to Bard's part of the story would make absolutely zero sense if they include the thrush anyway. I mean, why would they bother having him already know about the loose scale if a bird's going to tell him it is there?

[Covenant]

They'd only include the talking Thrush as a way to introduce the audience to the idea of talking birds on the Lonely Mountain. In the book previously we had talking Eagles and then talking Thrushes, and then the Talking Raven which has major plot significance.

Without Roac we lose a huge amount of information about what is going on outside the walls. Some of that COULD be transmitted by Bofur or Fili returning from the human encampment to warn Thorin and advise him to make peace. Theoretically the same agent could be used to go contact Dain.

[Simon_Jester]

I think Bard was a major weakpoint in this movie. He looks too Elfy in some ways, and also lost a bit of the (small) character he had before to make him scowling and angry. I totally understand their desire to enlarge Bard's part so that he does not come out of nowhere, but honestly, there were a lot of other ways to do this that I think would have been better. But it wasn't bad. Nothing was super bad. Just things I felt were weaker than they could have been.

Elfy? Not sure I understand, unless your complaint is that he's too much of a pretty-boy.

[Lost Soal]

By trying to increase the drama of Bard's story (unnecessarily), they undermine the impact of the massive amount of time and CGI they spent on the dwarves' fight with Smaug.

They also enlarged Bard's part from a simple hero to a potential rival and semi-antagonist, smuggler, rabble-rouser, and fellow with a genetic memory of how to fire a Dwarf ballistae. I didn't care for that myself, but I figured people might balk at the idea of normal bowmen killing a dragon the size of a small plane.

What genetic memory? Its a giant crossbow, you point and pull the trigger.

Having it be a bit of anti-dragon Artillery makes a degree of sense... but honestly, seeing how poorly it did, it again feels like a terrible idea. Bard's ancestor banged a single scale, what, three times? And then it only brought a scale off? Okay, fine, but unless you have like 10 Windbows how the crap are you going to take down a dragon? Smaug may be bigger than the average dragon in existence these days, but we do not really know that for certain. We have nothing else to compare it to. Anyway, again--it felt like the plan was never going to work, so giving Girion some shit for not hitting a fist-sized bullseye on a fast moving aerial target 5 times.... I don't know. Maybe Dwarfs and Elfs can do it but I think it's pretty damn impressive he hit as many times as he did.

I don't believe he did hit the same scale multiple times, from what I recall of the scene he never got a direct hit square on, it was always glancing hits. Had he been able to hit it directly so the force could actually propel into Smaug instead of sliding along his side then it would have killed him, at least that's the implication I get.

[Covenant]

Elfy? Not sure I understand, unless your complaint is that he's too much of a pretty-boy.

No, I just mean he's a lean-and-lanky sort of dude with the pulled back hair that trails down the side of his head. It isn't that I'm mistaking him for an Elf, but I think he's a bit of a disappointment when it comes to character choice. Just about everyone in the movie has that kind of look, even several of the Dwarfs, so I found it to be a little distracting. Not a complaint, I just wish he was more distinctive.

What genetic memory? Its a giant crossbow, you point and pull the trigger.

Just a joke because that thing cannot be easy to aim well, especially without so much as an aiming nub. I had also assumed from what I saw that Bard was right and Girion had hit him 3 times, but 3 times in the same spot.

I checked it again and that is not true--the first arrow hits Smaug squarely in the right breast, the next one in the left. But the second one is a T intersection with the Dragon, so I don't know how much more favorable a shot you can expect to get.

[PREDATOR490]

Interestingly, How It Should Have Ended have done a youtube of this film and I am jaded enough about the shoehorn of Legolas that I can see what they did for fun... actually being in the next film.
They depict Legolas shooting the Dragon with the black arrow since he is the aimbot marksmen which the film demonstrated without restraint.

As for the love triangle - Tauriel is kinda cute but I see her as pointless because her story is not going to go anywhere. Legolas does not show up with her in the LOTR so... either she is going to die or fuck off. Same with Legolas really, he has been forced into these films but other than filling up screentime, what difference is he actually making ?

The situation with Gandalf equally annoyed me for how much filler crap it was worth. Old man goes around banging his stick on the ground to reveal the bad guys on his own in a place he thinks is a trap then gets his ass kicked. No surprise there, what exactly was he trying to accomplish ?

Dragon - Unimpressed
Smaug ultimately gets made to look like an idiot repeatedly... failing to see what makes this Dragon so impressive.


Ultimately, the entire film feels like padded out filler with little effort to use the padding to actually explain or explore the world they are in. Instead, fill the screen with increasing amounts of CGI action shit and lame attempts at drama.

[Ted C]

It *would* have been better if Gandalf had gone and met with the White Council and convinced them to attack Dol Guldur in force (which is what happened "off-screen" in the books). Would have made some sense.

Legolas whacking Bolg may be beneficial in some way.

Tauriel is made up from whole cloth; there's no way her story can go anywhere, so I would prefer they spent less time on it.

[Simon_Jester]

As for the love triangle - Tauriel is kinda cute but I see her as pointless because her story is not going to go anywhere. Legolas does not show up with her in the LOTR so... either she is going to die or fuck off. Same with Legolas really, he has been forced into these films but other than filling up screentime, what difference is he actually making ?

We already knew he was prince of the wood elves. It's entirely appropriate that he make an appearance in any Hobbit film that doesn't keep an insanely tight focus on the dwarves+Bilbo party.

Whether it does enough for ticket sales to justify Orlando Bloom's wages... dunno.

The situation with Gandalf equally annoyed me for how much filler crap it was worth. Old man goes around banging his stick on the ground to reveal the bad guys on his own in a place he thinks is a trap then gets his ass kicked. No surprise there, what exactly was he trying to accomplish ?

I think he was trying to 'fight for information-' learn enough about exactly what was there and how powerful the threat was that he could retreat and consult with the White Council on the matter.

He walked into the trap confident of his ability to break out- which was justified if all he had to deal with was the orcs, you saw how easily he handled them. The shade of Sauron, on the other hand... not so much.

Dragon - Unimpressed
Smaug ultimately gets made to look like an idiot repeatedly... failing to see what makes this Dragon so impressive.

Fair point.

[Grumman]

Interestingly, How It Should Have Ended have done a youtube of this film and I am jaded enough about the shoehorn of Legolas that I can see what they did for fun... actually being in the next film.
They depict Legolas shooting the Dragon with the black arrow since he is the aimbot marksmen which the film demonstrated without restraint.

I liked that. It reminded me of something you'd see in Shamus Young's LotR webcomic.

[Elfdart]

I watched it again, which says something because I didn't watch any of Jackson's other movies more than once in the theater (I didn't bother with ROTK). A few points:

It *would* have been better if Gandalf had gone and met with the White Council and convinced them to attack Dol Guldur in force (which is what happened "off-screen" in the books). Would have made some sense.

He sent Radagast back for help while he poked around, spying and possibly spoiling.

Legolas whacking Bolg may be beneficial in some way.

My only beef with the scene is that Legolas didn't just shoot Bolg or his warg as he rode off, rather than chasing after them. My girlfriend gasped when he put that kung-fu block on the elf's sword ("He can't do that!").

Tauriel is made up from whole cloth; there's no way her story can go anywhere, so I would prefer they spent less time on it.

On the other hand, she has the best theme music of any character in these movies:




Yes, I know it's cribbed somewhat from Last of the Mohicans, which is to be expected since it's obvious Peter Jackson watched that movie dozens of times. Steal from the best, as the saying goes.

I think they'll kill her and Kili off together. I would (He dies fighting for his uncle; she dies fighting for him). One thing I always preferred in the Rankin-Bass cartoon version to the book is that most of the thirteen dwarves get killed in the last battle, kinda like in The Seven Samurai, who lose four in battle.

As for Smaug looking foolish, I didn't think so. With the dwarves being so small and so few it would be like a tiger trying to catch mice. I thought the golden shower was an attempt to smother the dragon, not burn him. Gold was just the handiest, most common metal they had to work with.

Also didn't like the big gold statue. I felt like they should have known that had no chance of working. When Smaug was walking across the tops of the forges, he wasn't burning his feet. He seemed unperturbed. I think it was meant to be a thing like "You want gold, Smaug? How can you resist this!" and he's like "It's so beautiful!" and then it blows up on him, but it didn't come out that way. It seemed like a terrible plan that had no hope of working.

It's not like they had a whole lot of options to choose from. There was no Sicarius Dracorum laying around for them to use.



That's what I call +3, motherfuckers!

[JLTucker]

IOn the other hand, she has the best theme music of any character in these movies:

Lies.

http://youtu.be/aOINKaOnuvE?t=2m30s

http://youtu.be/DippXnb1PJs?t=25s

[Elfdart]

Are you trying to put me to sleep or something?

[JLTucker]

Are you trying to put me to sleep or something?

I like music that isn't cliche of epics. The Tauriel stuff is pretty awful by Howard Shore standards. He really, really dropped the ball with The Hobbit. I wonder if so much work was put into that another book could be published on the complexity of the music.

Edit: I posted those music clips because Aragorn and Arwen are the inspiration for Kili and Tauriel's filler love story.

[Elfdart]

What got me is how they expanded some parts but shrank others like Beorn. Beorn is such a minor character who is just stuck in the film because he was in the book.

To be fair, he also resolved the problem the dwarves had at the end of the first movie- that they were being pursued by aggressive goblins/orcs on wargback. Beorn serves to scare off the pursuers and provide the dwarves with the means to move fast enough to escape that danger.

Actually, at the end of part 1, I had the impression that travel by eagle had left the orcs and wargs far behind. There was no orc problem at the end of the first movie. The opening of part 2 partly negated the eagle rescue.

Not really, dog-like creatures can cover ridiculous amounts of ground non-stop, trotting for over 24 hours without stopping. Once they regain the scent, they can start hounding the party all over again. On top of that, Darth Drogo has already sent out couriers to find Thorin's band and tell everyone about the reward. It also looks like Azog replaced his losses (maybe picking up these couriers along the way).

[LaCroix]

My only beef with the scene is that Legolas didn't just shoot Bolg or his warg as he rode off, rather than chasing after them.

He was out of arrows, as far as I could see...

[xerex]

The situation with Gandalf equally annoyed met was worth. Old man goes around banging his stick on the ground to reveal the bad guys on his own in a place he thinks is a trap then gets his ass kicked. No surprise there, what exactly was he trying to accomplish ?

It *would* have been better if Gandalf had gone and met with the White Council and convinced them to attack Dol Guldur in force (which is what happened "off-screen" in the books). Would have made some sense.

Gandalf has deliberately put himself in danger in Dol Guldar to force the White Council to come to his rescue and attack the Necromancer. .

[Tribble]

Gandalf has deliberately put himself in danger in Dol Guldar to force the White Council to come to his rescue and attack the Necromancer

The sad thing is you are probably right. Not only that, he may have deliberately put himself in danger in the hopes of getting Sauron to gloat and reveal himself. The fact that Sauron fell for something that obvious is pretty sad. He is literally getting dumber with every movie. Next thing we know he'll be holding onto a bald cat while pointing out that Gandalf's cage is both easily escapable and poorly guarded.

For some reason, I feel that Gandalf's discovery of the Necromancer in the book was a little more involved than becoming a damsel in distress and getting Sauron to fall for it.