There's too much fucking Dalek's in the new Doctor Who

[AndroAsc]

I think this has been said before (I'll be very surprised if it has not)... but why is it that every FUCKING season or half-season there is Daleks in the new Doctor Who series (since 2005)?

In the first season, it was established that the Daleks was wiped out in the last time war, and so introducing the Daleks involved lots of interesting plot devices. But after a while, they ran out of plot devices to explain why an extinct species would return, and for a species that has been supposedly wiped out in the time war, they keep coming back every fucking season.

And yes, even the latest episode last week had Daleks. WTF man... can't the writers invent new villains? I know the Daleks where the archenemy of the time lords, but this is getting fucking ridiculous.

And for the record, the archenemy of the Time Lords, which are supposedly one of the most powerful civilizations ever written in science fiction (based on a community ranking on this forum some years back).... really fail to evoke any sense of power or awe in me... are so underwhelming to the point that at times they are portrayed as pathetic and comical. If you're going to create the archenemy of one of the most powerful civilizations, at least make them intimidating.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well, since "The Victory of the Daleks" in season 5 they were no longer extinct, they were out there re-building and expanding and conquering things. They had to appear in the 50th special since it was, you know, about the Time War that they fought in. And in the 50th they had the most to lose fromt he Time Lords returning. So of course they would be there.

And in Eccelston and Tennant's era, it was Daleks surviving the Time War and desperately trying to continue to survive, so you had at least the possibility of interesting stories.

Out of universe, they are highly popular, can be quite scary and the BBC needs to get it's money's worth out of the fairly elaborate props-cum-costumes.

[Tribble]

IMO the Daleks first two appearances were well done. "Dalek" established for new viewers that despite their pepper-shaker appearance this was one species not to be trifled with. If that was what just one Dalek was capable of, it was easy enough to imagine how terrible the Time War must have been. I view their appearance in "Parting of the Ways" similarly to Terminator 2 - not exactly necessary, but enjoyable. And it did give the Doctor closure with regards to his actions in the Time War; when he was faced with similar circumstances he decided he would prefer to die rather than become the man he was before (a decision which many people seem to forget!) I wish they had stopped mentioning the war after this episode, as I feel that nothing more really needed to be said.

Apart from these two episodes Dalek appearances tend to be "meh," though I admit rather enjoyed watching the Cybermen and Daleks' attempts at "diplomacy"... and the Dalek who offered up some tea.

[Purple]

Honestly I have to say that I disagree with the sentiment wholeheartedly. My favorite episodes always were those when the Daleks made an appearance, any appearance. There is something about them, those evil unstoppable shakers of salt that glues me to my seat.

[Broomstick]

I've heard that Terry Nation's estate requires that the Daleks appear at least once a season or else Who loses all rights to use them at all. I do not know if that is true or not.

[PREDATOR490]

Fuck em all.

Lose the rights and Doctor Who will be better for it because it will force the writers to actually wipe the damn things out and find another crutch to lean on. Probably the Cybermen although the Weeping Angels are moving up that list.

That said, the issue is more the inability of Doctor Who to break out of the generic hack forumla they keep using. Doctor Who is completely bi-polar to the point of absurdity as a result.

[Purple]

Fuck em all.

Lose the rights and Doctor Who will be better for it because it will force the writers to actually wipe the damn things out and find another crutch to lean on. Probably the Cybermen although the Weeping Angels are moving up that list.

O-o. Are you serious? The Daleks are the Doctors most iconic and frightening adversary. If not for them the Doctor would not be the Doctor. It would just be another generic SF series with a guy and a girl flying around in space. I refuse to even imagine such a world.

That said, the issue is more the inability of Doctor Who to break out of the generic hack forumla they keep using. Doctor Who is completely bi-polar to the point of absurdity as a result.

Are the two of us watching the same series?

[Tribble]

Honestly I have to say that I disagree with the sentiment wholeheartedly. My favorite episodes always were those when the Daleks made an appearance, any appearance. There is something about them, those evil unstoppable shakers of salt that glues me to my seat.

So for you I guess "Daleks in Manhatten" is still a far better episode than say Blink, or Caves of Androzani? Hey, whatever floats ur boat.

[Purple]

Honestly I have to say that I disagree with the sentiment wholeheartedly. My favorite episodes always were those when the Daleks made an appearance, any appearance. There is something about them, those evil unstoppable shakers of salt that glues me to my seat.

So for you I guess "Daleks in Manhatten" is still a far better episode than say Blink, or Caves of Androzani? Hey, whatever floats ur boat.

Far better, no. Quite good simply because of the Daleks, yes. The Daleks just seem to add a +10 to every episode.

[Zixinus]

They are the Doctor's most iconic enemies and thus have to be showed every season for the simple reason that they're popular. Ratings have to go up somehow. Whether you like them or not, they are as stuck with Dr.Who as they are with blue phone box. Add to the fact that some directors/writers have been Who-fans who want Daleks and you can see the current situation.

I do agree that they should stop writing them into the corner and then breaking down the walls just to write them into a plotline again. Write them being able to come back at the end and be done with.

[DaveJB]

Write them being able to come back at the end and be done with.

That's been the case in every one of their appearances since Moffat took over. In fact, even in the RTD era there were only three times where they pulled the "The Daleks are dead forever and ever" card (Dalek, The Parting of the Ways and Journey's End) out of five stories where they played a significant role.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm very fond of the Daleks, since they are the first Doctor Who episodes I can ever remember watching (it was the Cushing films actually now that I tihnk about it, but still) and that sort of imprinted them on me.

Most of the time a Dalek episode is a good episode. Sometimes however, like Daleks in Manhattan, it is terrible. But I don't think that's a result of the Daleks themselves, it's writers not knowing how to write a good Dalek story.

Hell, if it wasn't for the Daleks Doctor Who woudl have been a footnote in TV history as an ambitious but short-lived sci-fi serial.

As for the "stop leaving them as totally dead" that was the point of Victory of the Daleks, they get away and as a result now you can have them appear without needing ten minutes of "how did they survive THIS time?"

On the one-a-season thing, that was BBC policy at one point (early-mid seventies IIRC) because they were such good ratings-grabbers but I don't think it is due to Nation's estate.

[Havok]

I've always been confused by the hate for Daleks in Manhattan.

I mean is it the pig people? The use of the Empire State building? The over the top New York accents? The fact that they used them all together?

The story is good to me because it is about the Daleks trying to evolve not just repopulate so they can EXTERMINATE! It's Daleks trying to be more and I like that.

I also think it is a good companion piece to Dalek because while that shows the final end of the original Daleks due to merging with humans and realizing the loss of it's people and being terrified of being alone, DiM is trying to show a new beginning and a different type of Dalek due to merging with humans and being terrified of not being able to adapt and evolve and survive and save the Daleks.

It's all the Doctor stuff I can do without in the two-parter. He is just there to show us what is going on. It's a Dalek story, not a Doctor Who story.

[Havok]

Write them being able to come back at the end and be done with.

That's been the case in every one of their appearances since Moffat took over. In fact, even in the RTD era there were only three times where they pulled the "The Daleks are dead forever and ever" card (Dalek, The Parting of the Ways and Journey's End) out of five stories where they played a significant role.

I wouldn't count Dalek in that list because while the supposed last of the Daleks dies, they establish that Daleks could indeed and definitely did escape the Time War and time lock and obviously if one could, others could (and did).

[Ahriman238]

Pig-people, annoying characters with annoying accents, DNA transmitted by sunburst lightning-strike giving human-dalek hybrids free will (because humans didn't have that already?) Overly convoluted and circular plot, the daleks doing the one thing that is anathema to them, what the dalek in 'Dalek' killed himself for accidently doing to a far lesser degree. The Doctor's own characterization. There's lots to hate.

[Havok]

Ah so the science of that particular episode of Doctor Who is bad. Gotchya. lol
And anathema? The entire premise is that these four Daleks were engineered to think outside of what normal Dalek thinking is. Their entire purpose for existence is to be anathema or didn't you gather that part? Can't FOUR Daleks out of billions be a tiny bit different? You act as if the entire race is shown to be acting out of character.

And in the end, even these Daleks can't break the mold. Geezus the whole story end with them being exactly the same as ever.

I agree the Doctor stuff was bleh, but as I said, it isn't a Doctor story, it is a Dalek story.

[DaveJB]

To me, the biggest fault with the Manhattan/Evolution two-parter is that it completely wastes the potential of the idea it had. For the first twenty minutes or so of Evolution, it looks like it might go somewhere interesting with the hybrid Sec. But then the other three Daleks depose him, the rest of the story turns into a standard-issue Dalek action adventure, and Sec only pops up for thirty seconds at the end to get killed. Add even worse science than usual and the silliness of the pig people, and you get a story that's... well, not really one of the worst NuWho stories (or even the worst NuWho Dalek story - Victory of the Daleks was arguably worse, and Journey's End was way, WAY worse), but still a major disappointment.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah, I think that is the major hate for it. It was a really interesting idea but it was terribly done. Add to that the fact that it didn't need to be set in New York (and hence could have avoided the OTT accents) using the pig slaves rather than robomen (which at least could have plausibly blended in with a crowd). The dalek-human hybrid was interesting but Sec just looked dumb. I mean, really, really dumb. The whole DNA through lightning which was really gamma rays even though those wouldn't penetrate the atmosphere, the Doctor's character and the entire character of Solomon. Also the whole "we'll turn humans into Daleks" was tried in Evil of the Daleks in a far more sensible manner that didn't involve silly face tentacles.

Most of all though, it felt like someone filmed a bad fanfiction script with a big budget. It's the same feeling I got watching Star Trek V.

So, yeah, good idea, badly executed.

Oh and btw Havoc you said "you act as if the entire race is acting out of character." At this point they WERE the entire race, so, yeah, they were out of character. It had some good moments though, mostly the amusing Dalek looking furtively over it's shoulder when discussing Sec's actions.

[Purple]

I don't really agree with any of that overall. The accents were a bit strange. But I would not go so far as to call them annoying. The whole lightning powered thing is not that much out of line with mainstream SF. I mean for gods sake we have star trek and the magical particle of the week. And the pig people were, whilst a bit pointless overall not a big hindrance either. I mean I don't really understand why the Daleks needed to turn people into mind controlled pigs instead of just mind controlling them. But the costumes were done nicely and it fits the plot (and gives us a nice romantic ending) so why complain? And the whole doctor adding his own DNA bit can be easily explained if you consider that it was probably simply needed to counter what ever brainwashing the Daleks put into their process.

Hell, I just re watched the two parter today for the sake of checking and I like it just fine. It's fun, it has action, mystery, drama, romance and the Daleks. What's not to like?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I suspect it's like the recent christmas special, people hate it because it could have been so much better than it was, with a few changes it would have fit better with prior Dalek stories (using robomen in place of pig slaves, using the Dalek factor in place of whatever it was). Even the lightning thing could have been used since it was actually quite cool. Don't call it a gamma strike full of gamma rays for one. Leave it as ordinary lightning and you even get a homage to Frankenstein which would have been cool.

Sure, if you watch the episodes on their own merits they aren't too bad. They're meh, average season-3 episodes. However, it could probably have been compressed into a single episode and still worked well. But fans don't watch it on its own merits, they look at it as part of the overall Dalek story, where it is not too good. For added negativity, Caan's escape caused Journey's End which was awful.

[Tribble]

Plenty for the people who didn't like it. You find the accents strange... I find them annoying. You find the pigs a bit pointless... I find them the most ridiculous henchmen the Daleks have used in Nu Who. You view the ending as being romantic.... I view the ending as being retarded. It all boils down to personal opinion, which is fine. I think you can agree though that the general consensus was that the episode was bad, even if you personally enjoy. I guess the big difference between you and I is that I do not give a +10 (or automatically perfect score on a 10 point scale) to every episode that happens to have a Dalek in it. But hey, as Chuck likes to say, we're just viewers with an opinion.

[Tribble]

I'll give the episode this much credit: the Daleks weren't stupid enough to literally shoot themselves to death like they did in the special. Which makes even less sense when you consider that Arcadia had already fallen and the Daleks we're focusing all their efforts on the Capital. Why were there Daleks trying to bombard the capital from the opposite side of the planet? And if it was because the sky-trenches on Arcadia had failed, why didn't they focus all of their efforts on the breach? If I remember correctly, the Daleks have plenty of weapons capable of blowing up planets, so why didn't they use one the moment they were able to breach the sky trenches on Arcadia? And perhaps most importantly, why did they completely ignore the Doctor's TARDIS's as they went flying around? Sure TARDIS's are tough and nimble, but you would think that 10 million+ Dalek ships would be more than enough to at least hit and destroy one or two of them. Instead, all the Daleks do is increase their bombardment on the capital. Ya, completely ignore the fact that your mortal nemesis is doing something right in front of you.

At least in "Daleks in Manhatten" they were in a desperate enough state that you could see them trying anything out... like using pigs. lol

[Havok]

I doubt 10 million plus ships could logistically all fire on the capital all at once. Besides just because the capital was the main target, doesn't mean it was the only target. I also don't think the Daleks would want to obliterate Time Lord planets as they want their technology.

And the pigs don't bother me one bit. The Daleks are messing with human genetics and are splicing in their own. Why is it such a stretch to think the pig people are not only a work force, but were practice. It's just what I assumed watching the episode.

[Purple]

I suspect it's like the recent christmas special, people hate it because it could have been so much better than it was, with a few changes it would have fit better with prior Dalek stories (using robomen in place of pig slaves, using the Dalek factor in place of whatever it was). Even the lightning thing could have been used since it was actually quite cool. Don't call it a gamma strike full of gamma rays for one. Leave it as ordinary lightning and you even get a homage to Frankenstein which would have been cool.

I see what you mean. So it's basically something that angers hardcore fans because they could have used all those cool things you remember and wanted to see but that the rest of us that don't know what you are talking about don't really notice. I can understand that, being a hardcore fan of some things as well. Hell, that's exactly how I felt watching the new hobbit (small H for a reason).

This said, I always felt the whole gamma ray thing was a homage to classic marvel/dc comics and the radiation is magic era.

Sure, if you watch the episodes on their own merits they aren't too bad. They're meh, average season-3 episodes. However, it could probably have been compressed into a single episode and still worked well.

That's probably true.

But fans don't watch it on its own merits, they look at it as part of the overall Dalek story, where it is not too good.

I guess so. I guess I newer thought of it that way.

For added negativity, Caan's escape caused Journey's End which was awful.

I think that this is a tad unfair. Judging an episode based on later ones. That's like saying the allied victory in WW1 was bad because it led to WW2.

I guess the big difference between you and I is that I do not give a +10 (or automatically perfect score on a 10 point scale) to every episode that happens to have a Dalek in it. But hey, as Chuck likes to say, we're just viewers with an opinion.

Well, I won't argue on the personal taste angle, because honestly that's not an argument that can be reasonably argued. But just for the record. The scale is 1 to 20 in my case. I like the Daleks but it has its limits.

EDIT: Upon contemplating on this I realized that was a lie. The scale is bloody 1 to 10. The sight of a Dalek is enough to glue me to the screen even if it's just a desktop background (I just checked).

[Eternal_Freedom]

For added negativity, Caan's escape caused Journey's End which was awful.

I think that this is a tad unfair. Judging an episode based on later ones. That's like saying the allied victory in WW1 was bad because it led to WW2.

Yes it's unfair, but when you are already disinclined to like an episode because of the other reasons I listed and the wasted potential, and when looking at it in retrospect, it's another nail in the episodes coffin.

Like I said, I can watch these two and find them at least watchable, nothing to shout about but nothing particularly that made me think "fuck this." But when you start thinking about it's place int he large story, you get an "ah shit" moment and off down the rabbit hole you go, emerging with an opinion of the episode as utter shite.