What happens when a world joins the UFP?

[FaxModem1]

When a world finally meets all the requirements, and all the i's have been dotted and t's have been crossed, what happens then? Does the local military still stay around? What happens to their fleet? Are they now considered Starfleet ships? Their military? What happens to the infrastructure of their planet?

Let's use, say, Bajor, as an example.

[DaveJB]

Planetary governments definitely had a lot of autonomy back in the TOS era, and they were generally free to run their own infrastructure and set their own laws, so long as they abided by Federation rules; I suppose the nearest present-day equivalent would probably be the EU.

The TNG era Federation on the other hand I believe was implied to be a lot more like the USA, with the Federation much more deeply involved in the running of each planet, and Federation law fully replacing the laws of the individual worlds.

As for member fleets being integrated into Starfleet, I don't think that ever happened. The Vulcans were pretty explicitly stated as having their own fleet, as were one or two other member races, even in the TNG era.

[Lord MJ]

The TNG era Federation on the other hand I believe was implied to be a lot more like the USA, with the Federation much more deeply involved in the running of each planet, and Federation law fully replacing the laws of the individual worlds.

Eh? What evidence is there for this? And how often did we see Federation members worlds in the TNG era anyway?

[Lord MJ]

If anything, I say that unless they live in or spend much time in space, on a colony world, or on a world like Earth, the average person in the Federation has virtually no contact with the Federal government of the Federation. Unlike in the US, where the federal government's touch is felt by everyone.

Military? Depends. Bajor explicitly mentioned the militia being joined into Starfleet. But we don't know if that includes Fleet assets or also the ground forces, local security forces, etc. We've seen no evidence across Trek of local infrastructure, military or otherwise on Federation member planets being made up of Starfleet personnel, except on Earth.

[Lord Pounder]

Is there any evidence of non-standard ships being integrated into the Federation Starfleet? Even during the Dominion War and against the second Borg invasion every Federation ship we see was standard design, apart from the phantom Millennium Falcon.

[Lord MJ]

By the time of the 24th century, most of the new world's interstellar technology is obsolete compared to the tech used by Starfleet. So most of the ships from new member worlds would not be useful for anything other than perhaps planetary defense.

In the early days of the Federation, it's possible that the new member worlds tech was on par with Starfleet, but that would be in the 22nd and 23rd centuries. That tech too, would be obsolete by the TNG era.

[Agent Sorchus]

This is actually a potentially fascinating subject. Like what about a potential member having a decently advanced ships and specifically Cloaking tech? How would the federation deal with that? The Romulans?

By the time of the 24th century, most of the new world's interstellar technology is obsolete compared to the tech used by Starfleet. So most of the ships from new member worlds would not be useful for anything other than perhaps planetary defense.

Ahh what then of the excelsior hordes? Not that advanced. Really ship construction is so important in the later era I'd expect to see lots of potential yards springing up as otherwise outer members use whatever technical expertise for better political recognition.

In the early days of the Federation, it's possible that the new member worlds tech was on par with Starfleet, but that would be in the 22nd and 23rd centuries. That tech too, would be obsolete by the TNG era.

Is there any evidence of non-standard ships being integrated into the Federation Starfleet? Even during the Dominion War and against the second Borg invasion every Federation ship we see was standard design, apart from the phantom Millennium Falcon.

Or the bulk work and "Tech Level" insensitive stuff is done by smaller yards and all the delicate and finishing work is done by work teams from the Corps of engineers. We really don't know, but is a potential explanation for the kit-bash models seen in DS9, which have weird hulls and other more standard parts. USS Yeager for instance: Voyager Saucer and F16 hull.

[Lord MJ]

Ahh what then of the excelsior hordes? Not that advanced. Really ship construction is so important in the later era I'd expect to see lots of potential yards springing up as otherwise outer members use whatever technical expertise for better political recognition.

Excelsior still far more advanced than the Tech that applicant member worlds shown on TNG possessed. Those planets not possessing a large Starfleet of any kind. Not even at the level of the 22nd century powers. Essentially possessing ships that could defend their planet if even that.

That's not to say that those planets do not have advanced tech in other areas, but they are apparently lacking the infrastructure to field interstellar forces and projecting power beyond their home systems.

[Alferd Packer]

Is there any evidence of non-standard ships being integrated into the Federation Starfleet? Even during the Dominion War and against the second Borg invasion every Federation ship we see was standard design, apart from the phantom Millennium Falcon.

Only apocryphal evidence from Star Trek Online. The Federation has available to it Caitian, Vulcan, and Andorian ships, while the Klingons have Gorn, Orion, and Nausicaan vessels in some capacity or another.

[Prannon]

This isn't borne out by direct evidence on screen, but suppose this. What if the major Federation Member worlds had a ship yard of some sort. Given the vast distances between star systems, I can imagine that ship yards in a particular system would be disproportionately manned by a the native species of that system.

Now suppose that the member world that happens to host such a ship yard gets to design and build their own ships? Yes, in the Federation, the general design philosophy would be the same, but this would allow for the wide variety of ships that we get to see. Perhaps the Galaxy class was designed by committee between humans and vulcans, while the Excelsior class was designed primarily by human militarists, while the Intrepid class was designed predominately by Vulcan science leaning minds. *shrug*

To tie this into the main topic, if you're a very prominent and well established member world, and if you have the capital and resources to host a ship yard of your own, you get to contribute your own tidbits of ideas to the Federation starship design philosophy. Bajor probably wouldn't have the capital and resources to be able to contribute all that much in their initial years of Federation membership, except perhaps to build smaller craft like scout ships and patrol ships. That's pretty much all we ever saw on screen, anyway.

[FaxModem1]

That wouldn't work, as we see all different types of ships built at the same shipyard. Specifically, Utopia Planetia, above Mars.

[Lord Revan]

one possibility is that member world maintain a fleet of starships for police duties, I mean someone has to try to capture all those pirates and smugglers and using a connie or a Galaxy for those duties seems like an overkill.

[Lord MJ]

I would fully expect the members world's to be responsible for policing, law enforcement, and basic security within their home systems.

As far as interstellar policing, it would make sense that the Federation or Starfleet has a separate department to handle those things, but their is nothing in canon regarding that.


Out of Universe, Gene Roddenberry essentially said "There is no such thing as Space Pirates."

[Havok]

Just replicators and transporters could completely remake an entire planet, and I mean completely remake. The thing is, the Federation are a bunch of cocks about letting planets join (go ahead and see Bajor) and Star Trek writers don't quite get the impact of instant transportation and the complete annihilation of famine and class.

[Zed Snardbody]

Weren't there a couple instances of all Vulcan crewed "standard" Starfleet ships?

I'm trying to decide if that would be more akin to a Coast Guard cutter being crewed with all Floridians since they're from the area and dont have to recruit other people or a naval vessel crewed by nothing but African Americans just because.

[Havok]

The latter, but I mean there is a fundamental difference, that is not racist or stereotyped, in how humans and other species approach not only standard everyday events and actual problems as opposed to Vulcans. The idea of Vulcans wanting to serve with other Vulcans is well... and sorry... logical. It's not "OMG HE IS WHITE ON THE LEFT!" kinda stupid.

I can honestly see it being a specific Vulcan request as well. ( I think it was IIRC)

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Out of Universe, Gene Roddenberry essentially said "There is no such thing as Space Pirates."

The writers of the Enterprise Episode "Fortunate Son" clearly forgot that then

Weren't there a couple instances of all Vulcan crewed "standard" Starfleet ships?

In "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", the USS T'Kumbra was an all-Vulcan ship. According to Memory Alpha, the USS Hera and USS Intrepid (NCC-1631) were predominantly Vulcans too. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the artificial gravity was turned up on those ships

[Kuja]

The latter, but I mean there is a fundamental difference, that is not racist or stereotyped, in how humans and other species approach not only standard everyday events and actual problems as opposed to Vulcans. The idea of Vulcans wanting to serve with other Vulcans is well... and sorry... logical. It's not "OMG HE IS WHITE ON THE LEFT!" kinda stupid.

I can honestly see it being a specific Vulcan request as well. ( I think it was IIRC)

In addition, under certain circumstances it could make sense to crew a ship with all of one race.

For a Vulcan example, low-altitude survey of a star's corona. Vulcans are far better suited for handling the conditions of elevated heat and ambiant light levels than humans, so there you go, throw a Vulcan crew together and send them off. It's not really analogous to crewing a ship with, say, Mexicans as opposed to Koreans since the differences between human ethnicites are far less pronounced than biological differences could be between humans and aliens.

I mean, if you discover a planet that has an atmosphere primarily composed of chlorine, and you have a race in your organization that can breathe chlorine, it just makes sense.

[FaxModem1]

Just replicators and transporters could completely remake an entire planet, and I mean completely remake. The thing is, the Federation are a bunch of cocks about letting planets join (go ahead and see Bajor) and Star Trek writers don't quite get the impact of instant transportation and the complete annihilation of famine and class.

With Bajor, we see them supply the Bajorans with supplies, infrastructure for rebuilding, security, etc. They were about to join the Federation in season 5, but Sisko told them, as the emissary, to join after the Dominion War, so they wouldnt be curbstomped by the Dominion. How are they being a 'bunch of cocks' about it?

[Ted C]

Presumably a newly joined planet continues to manage most of its own affairs, as it has presumably already adjusted its method of government and policies to comply with Federation requirements for membership.

The planetary government will have to appoint a representative to the Federation Council.

The planet's space navy presumably remains (Vulcan still has a defense fleet, for example), but it presumably needs to have some means of coordinating with Starfleet, and their fleet command structure presumably becomes subordinate to Starfleet Command.

[Ted C]

In "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", the USS T'Kumbra was an all-Vulcan ship. According to Memory Alpha, the USS Hera and USS Intrepid (NCC-1631) were predominantly Vulcans too. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the artificial gravity was turned up on those ships

The Intrepid, from TOS "The Immunity Syndrome", had an all-Vulcan (or nearly all-Vulcan) crew.

I doubt such ships have higher gravity. Despite the superhuman strength of Vulcans, gravity on Vulcan seems very similar to Earth's, as humans walk around on it on various occasions without any difficulty.

[JME2]

Just replicators and transporters could completely remake an entire planet, and I mean completely remake. The thing is, the Federation are a bunch of cocks about letting planets join (go ahead and see Bajor) and Star Trek writers don't quite get the impact of instant transportation and the complete annihilation of famine and class.

With Bajor, we see them supply the Bajorans with supplies, infrastructure for rebuilding, security, etc. They were about to join the Federation in season 5, but Sisko told them, as the emissary, to join after the Dominion War, so they wouldnt be curbstomped by the Dominion. How are they being a 'bunch of cocks' about it?

Pocket Books' DS9 relaunch dealt with the integration in the Bajor novella "Fragments and Omen" from Worlds of Deep Space Nine.

Whiel the civic government was left intact, the Militia had to be integrated into Starfleet and a representative on the Federation had to be chosen.

IIRC, some in the Milita were not happy at what they saw as conscription.

[Havok]

Just replicators and transporters could completely remake an entire planet, and I mean completely remake. The thing is, the Federation are a bunch of cocks about letting planets join (go ahead and see Bajor) and Star Trek writers don't quite get the impact of instant transportation and the complete annihilation of famine and class.

With Bajor, we see them supply the Bajorans with supplies, infrastructure for rebuilding, security, etc. They were about to join the Federation in season 5, but Sisko told them, as the emissary, to join after the Dominion War, so they wouldnt be curbstomped by the Dominion. How are they being a 'bunch of cocks' about it?

Because the Federation could have fixed Bajor in a fucking year. I mean they were fighting over some ground cleaning machines in like season 4 or 5 IIRC still. I get the whole "you need to do it yourself" thing, but it's not like the Bajorans fucked their own world up like Humans did, they were occupied and devastated by the Cardassians. For over 50 years.

They could have had SF engineers on point, they could have let them into the Federation and then helped them rebuild at a snails pace. No, it wasn't until the wormhole was discovered that the Federation even fucking cared about Bajor enough to send out more than a fucking commander that didn't even want to be in Starfleet anymore and apparently like 5 engineers to fix Terak Noir.

[Lord MJ]

Because the Federation could have fixed Bajor in a fucking year.

Umm.. How could they have done this exactly?

They could have had SF engineers on point, they could have let them into the Federation and then helped them rebuild at a snails pace.

And how does that translate into getting Bajor fixed in a year? And why do you think that such a force would even be welcome on Bajor? Their was resistance to the idea of the Federation even being on DS9. How would a force of Federation engineers planetside be received? Especially if they are not going to provide much value above the supplies and industrial equipment already supplied to the Bajorans. And the Bajorans didn't even have a stable government at the beginning of DS9. I would presume the Bajorans didn't even apply for Federation membership until after that whole "Circle" coup took place.

No, it wasn't until the wormhole was discovered that the Federation even fucking cared about Bajor enough to send out more than a fucking commander that didn't even want to be in Starfleet anymore and apparently like 5 engineers to fix Terak Noir.

Starfleet was on DS9 by Bajor's request, and the wormhole was literally discovered mere days after Starfleet took over Terok Nor.

[avatarxprime]

That wouldn't work, as we see all different types of ships built at the same shipyard. Specifically, Utopia Planetia, above Mars.

There are multiple shipyards in Federation space (although most appear to be centered on Utopia Planetia), but ships have been constructed elsewhere.

The Defiant (and its sister ship Valiant) were not built at Utopia, neither was the Prometheus. I think Prannon's theory makes sense, if the different shipyards all compete with each other for the new ship building contracts then obviously each winning design is heavily influenced by the owners of that shipyard. Utopia Planetia is the biggest shipyard in the Federation and likely gets a disproportionate share of construction duties. Of course, once a design is selected it would be passed out to all members, it's just the design phase that is likely a competition.