Shooting discussion devolves

[Ziggy Stardust]

In light of their having capitalized on such a tragedy, I'm trying to look at all of the factors here objectively, and a very big factor is that there has been a FALSE story reported by the mainstream media that SHOULD raise some very serious flags with people.

Are you sure you understand what the word "objective" means? Hint: it doesn't involve pants-shitting lunacy.

[Nephtys]

Possibility 1: People made a wrong report because of panic and confusion in the middle of a disaster.
Possibility 2: A wide reaching government conspiracy reaching to the top of law enforcement, military, diplomatic circles as well as the office of the president himself, that had decided to employ hundreds of agents to commit a grievous act against their own people to deflect media attention away from another issue. Fortunately, none of the hundreds of agents felt anything wrong, nor were there any leaks to the 'real' story from getting out. Also, complicit local authorities, shadowy commando operatives that escaped without being caught on camera and/or silenced witnesses.

Soo.... yeaaaaaah....

[Zirojtan]

See, I love this. I have never understood this behavior, but I encounter it all the time.

All of you have zeroed in on a specific thing that I said as a side note, and have married yourselves to the idea that this side note was the most important aspect of the point being made. Let me say this again. I DID NOT SAY THAT THE INITIAL REPORTS OF MULTIPLE SHOOTERS ARE WHAT PROVES A MEDIA COVER-UP OF DETAILS OF THE STORY. Please, please, PLEASE try to understand that. The fact that the media initially reported more than one shooter was a side dish with a main course of POLICE AUDIO DESCRIBING VISUALS OF MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL AND CAPTURE OF AT LEAST ONE, AS WELL AS THE EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT OF A STUDENT FROM THE SCHOOL VERIFYING THAT THE ARREST OF AT LEAST ONE PERSON. If you do not believe me, google something to the effect of "Sandy Hook Multiple Shooters", and the police audio is readily available to you on a number of websites.

This is a symptom that alludes to the larger problem that I described in earlier posts though - the APATHY. Not one of you seems to have listened to that audio, neither do you seem like you're willing to. Your minds are already made up, and you're skimming what I say for any minute detail that you can find that can discredit the story told to you over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by people on television, who many of you will acknowledge have a clear agenda all the time, except when you feel like they're being honest.

I could probably post links to the audio and come back here later to see even MORE posts about how the initial reports on the news aren't always correct, and see that you guys didn't even LOOK. And that right there is PRECISELY why your instant dismissal of what you term as "conspiracy theories" and "pants-shitting lunacy" is so funny, because you all have this embedded belief that someone, somewhere would tell you all the truth if there was any truth to be told, and that people somewhere would be up in arms - essentially that the problem would solve itself and you wouldn't have to do anything. What people who refuse to look at or consider alternative points of view often fail to realize, is that people like yourselves aren't in the minority. If the government wanted to pull something like this off, they wouldn't NEED to be that discrete, because as long as the reporters on television told you one story, you'd just laugh anyone with a different story out of the room.

The idea that if the real information were leaked, there would be sweeping action is a MYTH. There are many fine examples of how this myth has been busted in recent history, but one that comes to mind is the Occupation of Palestine. Almost nobody in the US knows the history of Israel, nor do they know about the daily, hourly violations of human rights that go on over there or the continued oppression of the Palestinian people. And why don't they know? All they have to do is look it up? I myself was SHOCKED at how easy it was to get my hands on balanced accounts of Israel's history at my university library, and balanced reports of the situation over there (which unfortunately, no matter how you slice it, ends up in the oppression of Palestinians). So why oh why do the majority of Americans know absolutely NOTHING about the conflict, and continue to sing praises to Israel as a gleaming "example of democracy in the Middle-East"? Because good looking politicians and reporters with the right voice pitch said that it is. It's just that simple. There is absolutely no other reason for Americans to think the way they do on this issue, the REAL information is RIGHT THERE. But nobody looks. Nobody wants to look anymore, they want to be TOLD, just as you want someone else on TV to TELL you that there were multiple shooters at Sandy Hook Elementary School rather than listen to the police audio yourself.

Or Wiki Leaks? I once watched US soldiers haplessly butcher several people from a plane without even knowing the identity or affinities of the individuals involved on that website, and anyone can go on there and watch if they want just the same as I did. But they don't. They just continue on living their lives, watching their TVs, and believing whatever their told without ever even taking just a minute to look.

So the idea that if information of a cover-up were leaked, that it would cause some sort of a national backlash is sadly misplaced. If the people on national networks don't report them, then no national action will ever take place at all. People ignore uncomfortable information every day and don't think twice.

[weemadando]

You keep changing your argument to evade the rebuttals.

Also, maybe you should read up on Tribalism and Othering, it would explain a lot about the world to you.

[Losonti Tokash]

Please explain why a news organization and political wing that has been shitting its pants for months because of virtually nothing (Benghazi) would not be all over a cover up of multiple shooters.

You appear to be under the impression that eyewitness and police accounts are 100% accurate and never get confused or muddled when it's actually the case that they're almost worthless as evidence for much of anything. If you watched 9/11 (on television) as it was happening think about how long it was between when you saw the first and second towers fall. You are almost certainly off by a couple hours.

Edit: Nevermind, I'll just defer to KS. I suspect he may know a bit more about police work than me.

[Kamakazie Sith]

See, I love this. I have never understood this behavior, but I encounter it all the time.

All of you have zeroed in on a specific thing that I said as a side note, and have married yourselves to the idea that this side note was the most important aspect of the point being made. Let me say this again. I DID NOT SAY THAT THE INITIAL REPORTS OF MULTIPLE SHOOTERS ARE WHAT PROVES A MEDIA COVER-UP OF DETAILS OF THE STORY. Please, please, PLEASE try to understand that. The fact that the media initially reported more than one shooter was a side dish with a main course of POLICE AUDIO DESCRIBING VISUALS OF MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL AND CAPTURE OF AT LEAST ONE, AS WELL AS THE EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT OF A STUDENT FROM THE SCHOOL VERIFYING THAT THE ARREST OF AT LEAST ONE PERSON. If you do not believe me, google something to the effect of "Sandy Hook Multiple Shooters", and the police audio is readily available to you on a number of websites.

If you're claiming the audio exists out there then you need to provide a link to it. What you're doing here is a typical tactic employed by conspiracy theorists. We do not find your evidence. You find your evidence and post it here. The burden of proof is on you.

This is a symptom that alludes to the larger problem that I described in earlier posts though - the APATHY. Not one of you seems to have listened to that audio, neither do you seem like you're willing to. Your minds are already made up, and you're skimming what I say for any minute detail that you can find that can discredit the story told to you over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by people on television, who many of you will acknowledge have a clear agenda all the time, except when you feel like they're being honest.

I have listened to the audio. You're mistaken. In an active shooter situation at a school the first priority is to neutralize the active threat and contain the scene. Then you have to verify the scene is secure and all witnesses are brought in for interview. This means anyone running from the school will be chased and the capture of them communicated via radio.

I could probably post links to the audio and come back here later to see even MORE posts about how the initial reports on the news aren't always correct, and see that you guys didn't even LOOK. And that right there is PRECISELY why your instant dismissal of what you term as "conspiracy theories" and "pants-shitting lunacy" is so funny, because you all have this embedded belief that someone, somewhere would tell you all the truth if there was any truth to be told, and that people somewhere would be up in arms - essentially that the problem would solve itself and you wouldn't have to do anything. What people who refuse to look at or consider alternative points of view often fail to realize, is that people like yourselves aren't in the minority. If the government wanted to pull something like this off, they wouldn't NEED to be that discrete, because as long as the reporters on television told you one story, you'd just laugh anyone with a different story out of the room.

You need to post it. Then we can have a discussion regarding the radio chatter.

The idea that if the real information were leaked, there would be sweeping action is a MYTH. There are many fine examples of how this myth has been busted in recent history, but one that comes to mind is the Occupation of Palestine. Almost nobody in the US knows the history of Israel, nor do they know about the daily, hourly violations of human rights that go on over there or the continued oppression of the Palestinian people. And why don't they know? All they have to do is look it up? I myself was SHOCKED at how easy it was to get my hands on balanced accounts of Israel's history at my university library, and balanced reports of the situation over there (which unfortunately, no matter how you slice it, ends up in the oppression of Palestinians). So why oh why do the majority of Americans know absolutely NOTHING about the conflict, and continue to sing praises to Israel as a gleaming "example of democracy in the Middle-East"? Because good looking politicians and reporters with the right voice pitch said that it is. It's just that simple. There is absolutely no other reason for Americans to think the way they do on this issue, the REAL information is RIGHT THERE. But nobody looks. Nobody wants to look anymore, they want to be TOLD, just as you want someone else on TV to TELL you that there were multiple shooters at Sandy Hook Elementary School rather than listen to the police audio yourself.

Or Wiki Leaks? I once watched US soldiers haplessly butcher several people from a plane without even knowing the identity or affinities of the individuals involved on that website, and anyone can go on there and watch if they want just the same as I did. But they don't. They just continue on living their lives, watching their TVs, and believing whatever their told without ever even taking just a minute to look.

So the idea that if information of a cover-up were leaked, that it would cause some sort of a national backlash is sadly misplaced. If the people on national networks don't report them, then no national action will ever take place at all. People ignore uncomfortable information every day and don't think twice.

I'd leave the emotional appeal out of it. You can't say D is true because of T and W. It all needs to logically make sense.

[PeZook]

All of you have zeroed in on a specific thing that I said as a side note, and have married yourselves to the idea that this side note was the most important aspect of the point being made. Let me say this again. I DID NOT SAY THAT THE INITIAL REPORTS OF MULTIPLE SHOOTERS ARE WHAT PROVES A MEDIA COVER-UP OF DETAILS OF THE STORY. Please, please, PLEASE try to understand that. The fact that the media initially reported more than one shooter was a side dish with a main course of POLICE AUDIO DESCRIBING VISUALS OF MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL AND CAPTURE OF AT LEAST ONE, AS WELL AS THE EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT OF A STUDENT FROM THE SCHOOL VERIFYING THAT THE ARREST OF AT LEAST ONE PERSON. If you do not believe me, google something to the effect of "Sandy Hook Multiple Shooters", and the police audio is readily available to you on a number of websites.

Nobody ignored that ; You just didn't provide anything to be ignored, just the usual "Look it up! It's there and it totally proves my point!" thing that all CTs do. You provided your INTERPRETATION of what the cops said, instead of quoting a transcript and providing a source.

It's pretty funny because guys like you describe yourselves as skeptics, but will believe literally everything you're fed without a token attempt to verify the trustworthiness of the source, as long as it matches your idea of how the world works. Which is why it takes real skeptics and real work to catch things like Bart Sibrel lying, while hordes of mindless zombies just lap it up.

This is a symptom that alludes to the larger problem that I described in earlier posts though - the APATHY. Not one of you seems to have listened to that audio, neither do you seem like you're willing to. Your minds are already made up, and you're skimming what I say for any minute detail that you can find that can discredit the story told to you over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by people on television, who many of you will acknowledge have a clear agenda all the time, except when you feel like they're being honest.

Or perhaps you can provide a link, a source, a quote...you know, anything concrete to discuss?

[Lonestar]

And Here are the specifics of Feinsteins proposed AWB

Including such winning provisions as

Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:

-Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test

-Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test

-Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans

And

Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:

-Background check of owner and any transferee;

-Type and serial number of the firearm;

-Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;

-Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and

-Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration

Haha, holy fuck. "Come up with the $$$ for a NFA trust, your semautomatic longarm is now exactly the same as a Machine gun as far as I'm concerned".

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I love how a fixed magazine semi-auto which must be reloaded one bullet at a time by hand which has 12 rounds instead of 10 on a gun with a pistol grip is now equivalent to a Lewis gun or an M2.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

*starts cackling* Oh goddess this is too good. I just realized it--if you have to get a Class III for your Bushmaster or AK-47, you could then convert it to full auto legally. This legislation could potentially increase the number of fully automatic weapons in the US by several orders of magnitude as people who have to go through a Class III to get it now have the license for the weapon to be full auto when before it wouldn't have been issued!

[Lonestar]

There are ~310,000,000 firearms in the U.S., say 20% are "assault weapons" grandfathered in.

62 million at 5 thousand a day is 34 years of processing.

No fucking way.

[Beowulf]

*starts cackling* Oh goddess this is too good. I just realized it--if you have to get a Class III for your Bushmaster or AK-47, you could then convert it to full auto legally. This legislation could potentially increase the number of fully automatic weapons in the US by several orders of magnitude as people who have to go through a Class III to get it now have the license for the weapon to be full auto when before it wouldn't have been issued!

Doesn't work that way Duchess. MGs must be registered as MGs, and you can't register new ones. You can register new SBRs, and those are "Class III", but that doesn't mean you can turn it into a MG.

There are ~310,000,000 firearms in the U.S., say 20% are "assault weapons" grandfathered in.

62 million at 5 thousand a day is 34 years of processing.

No fucking way.

Gets better: some of those 62 million will need to be transferred at some point during those 34 years (owner dies, or whatever). So tack on another couple years before the registry gets fully up to date. Oh, but wait, that's 62 million records! Odds of the registry remaining infalliable after that many records needing to be entered? Especially since by all accounts it's still a paper based system?

[Questor]

Oh man... you guys are missing the point: This is an IBM/Oracle handout.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Doesn't work that way Duchess. MGs must be registered as MGs, and you can't register new ones. You can register new SBRs, and those are "Class III", but that doesn't mean you can turn it into a MG.

Assuming the full bill creates an entire new NFA category. We'll see whether or not it does. The summary very much implies it does not.

[ryacko]

I would be mildly surprised that millions of gun enthusiasts and armchair lawyers would know more about creating loopholes then Congress.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I would be mildly surprised that millions of gun enthusiasts and armchair lawyers would know more about creating loopholes then Congress.

Ryacko, the original AWB was written such that you could avoid having your gun fall under it if you converted the flash suppressor into a muzzle brake... A muzzle brake, which reduces recoil and thus makes it easier to keep a steady aim while rapidly firing, thus increasing the lethality of the firearm. Our legislature is just that dumb.

[Lonestar]

"Armchair lawyers" were the ones that created the loopholes that Feinsteins proposed AWB would close(Bullet buttons, thumbhole stocks).


Most of the Bradybunch doesn't know much about firearms other than "ban them".

[Beowulf]

One of the proponents of the original AWB was asked in an interview what a barrel shroud was. "It's a shoulder thing that goes up." Bloomberg was recently interviewed, and said assault weapons, unlike semi-autopistols, have you pull the trigger and it goes *blam, blam, blam*.

[Aaron MkII]

Banning thumbhole stocks?

One of the most comfortable and ergonomic configurations out there. Glad I'm Canadian, that would essentially kill ownership for me as the usual sporting style stock is horribly uncomfortable with my disabled arm.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Banning thumbhole stocks?

One of the most comfortable and ergonomic configurations out there. Glad I'm Canadian, that would essentially kill ownership for me as the usual sporting style stock is horribly uncomfortable with my disabled arm.

Don't you know, thumbhole stocks are the real cause of mass shootings!

[Aaron MkII]

Oh certainly. I often think "if only my rifle was more comfortable, I'd be able to shoot up that bus load of nuns."

Even we aren't that stupid.

[Beowulf]

They're not stupid. They just don't care. It's something and something must be done, so lets do it.

[Lonestar]

Let's be honest;

As soon as Dianne Feinstein heard that a Bushmaster had been involved, she probably turned to her staffers and cackled with glee.

[Aaron MkII]

Dude, we have a committee made up of law enforcement, sport shooters and various others to advise the government when it makes laws about this stuff. This bill clearly illustrates that they are stupid (cosmetics determine a ban) and that they don't care, cause they can't be arsed to be informed.

Matt also has a point, she reminds me of the anti lobby here, goulish and not for anything that helps.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Failstein is a worthless shit Senator, anyway. She espouses lots of progressive causes but never does jack to advance them; of all the legislation she sponsors, only 10% of it has ever passed the Senate, which is almost the rock-bottom worst rate of any Senator, and considering her seniority that is especially bad.