You're pretty much completely wrong about all of this. I don't even understand how you could watch the show and come to any of these conclusions.jollyreaper wrote:The difficulty with EVA was Anno wanted to tell Shinji's story and did it against the backdrop of a completely different story. The angels weren't important, the eva units were not important, third impact wasn't even depicted overtly in the final two episodes.
So a lot of fan frustration was similar to x-files, you think the story is about this huge conspiracy but the creator was never interested in it in the first place.
I know for myself, I found Shinji to be incredibly annoying and someone I tried to ignore while enjoying the rest of the show. For the rest of the show to only be window dressing for his own psycho-drama.... Well, there's a reason why they made two new movies to end the show and why Anno blew everything up. Whether the fans were right in rejecting instrumentality or missing the point is open for debate!
I do agree that much of what Anno said the show was about was unclear from simply viewing it. Lost in translation, lost as a westerner making sense of material meant for Japanese otaku, hard to say.
Chuck does Evangelion
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
No, it's just a dub change. I don't know Japanese, so I didn't want to be all "THIS IS THE TRUTH!" about it.XaLEv wrote:Majin Gojira wrote:The dub is pretty vague about it, but the official sub includes the horrible phrase "This time".
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My transcription of Kaworu's lines in that scene: "Sā, yakusoku no toki da, Ikari Shinji-kun. Kondo koso kimi dake wa... shiawase ni shite miseru"
Did you have the impression the people doing the subtitles added that part themselves? Because he fairly clearly says "this time" in the original dialogue, see the bolded part above.
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Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
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Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Re: Chuck does Evangelion
HAIL ZOR! WE'LL BLOW UP THE OCEAN!
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WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE ON EARTH, ALL EARTH BREAKS LOOSE ON HELL
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
This video has moved me to action. I haven't ever sent him an email before, but now I think I'll do that to sort of repudiate those other emails he's gotten about the original series's ending. I feel like he should be offered multiple perspectives about that. (I'll just suppress my bitterness about what I'd call an overly positive judgement of the movie itself.)
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Man the series ending totally rules. The fact that people hated it is good because it got us End of Evangelion which ALSO rules :v
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
I never got the confusion about the ending. I get people not liking it, I suppose, it does come a little out of left field, but is it really that hard to understand? Especially when coupled with EoE, which I always though was pretty obviously the intended final two episodes given it features some shots that are exactly the same, just expanded and given context. I mean, I just finished Eureka 7 which is literally the longest amount of time I have ever invested in any Japanese media at all, and about the fifth Japanese show I have actually watched all the way through and even I picked up on some of the Japanese culturally specific stuff being brought up in Evangelion? Is it that hard?
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
But it's EXISTENTIAL! And FREUDIAN! And INTERNAL!
That's about the sum off the complaints for the most part.
That's about the sum off the complaints for the most part.
ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
There's a few reasons for it that I suspect are prominent. First, most people aren't used to surrealist art in general, and thus lack many of the mental tools needed to understand a surrealist narrative. At least in EoE the audience can latch onto the whole process of instrumentality to provide a framework for the imagery, and the instrumentality sequence doesn't start from the instant the film begins. This framework is technically there in the series ending as well, but you have to piece that together yourself.
Second, the budgetary issues become more and more obvious as the series goes on, and some people I've seen simply dismiss the series ending due to how this forced them into an art-house movie surreal approach. This may seem unfair, and it is. But some people think they need to pick and choose endings, and go for EoE because of this.
Third, depending on how you interpret the series ending, it may actually contradict EoE in terms of how Shinji's character growth comes to a climax. I'm sure you can reconcile the two, but again if you are the type who thinks you must choose one ending over the other you probably won't go through the effort.
Lastly, and I know people also dislike EoE for this as well, it just plain got darker in a hurry. Right after the battle with the Angel Zerul, Shinji gets even more depressive than before, Asuka gets nearly suicidal, Rei's true nature is revealed... I know there are some people who just don't like a tone shift like that so near to the ending. I would guess that's why Rebuild 2.22 ended on that particular battle.
But hey, who knows for sure. Sometimes a meme is just a meme.
Second, the budgetary issues become more and more obvious as the series goes on, and some people I've seen simply dismiss the series ending due to how this forced them into an art-house movie surreal approach. This may seem unfair, and it is. But some people think they need to pick and choose endings, and go for EoE because of this.
Third, depending on how you interpret the series ending, it may actually contradict EoE in terms of how Shinji's character growth comes to a climax. I'm sure you can reconcile the two, but again if you are the type who thinks you must choose one ending over the other you probably won't go through the effort.
Lastly, and I know people also dislike EoE for this as well, it just plain got darker in a hurry. Right after the battle with the Angel Zerul, Shinji gets even more depressive than before, Asuka gets nearly suicidal, Rei's true nature is revealed... I know there are some people who just don't like a tone shift like that so near to the ending. I would guess that's why Rebuild 2.22 ended on that particular battle.
But hey, who knows for sure. Sometimes a meme is just a meme.
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Challenging audience expectations is generally a bad idea for mass media. I imagine its worse than usual in the extremely hidebound genre of 'science fiction'.
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
EoE's ending was fantastic. Their was literally no better way to end the series.Ford Prefect wrote:Man the series ending totally rules. The fact that people hated it is good because it got us End of Evangelion which ALSO rules :v
I feel sick. :V
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Yeah those are reasons people don't like it, but it's the genuine confusion. There seeme to be a huge number of people who never worked out what SEELE/Gendo were doing, or what the third impact was all about and seem completely baffled by what the last tw episodes are, as if they are entirely disconnected from the rest of the show. I don't know how, it just wasn't that complicated.
I dunno if I would say the show got darker either, it just came to its logical conclusion. I can't point to many episodes even early on that were all sweetness and light, even the synchronised dance fighting one had its darkish and kinda creepy twist.
I dunno if I would say the show got darker either, it just came to its logical conclusion. I can't point to many episodes even early on that were all sweetness and light, even the synchronised dance fighting one had its darkish and kinda creepy twist.
I like it better translated as "disgusting" myself, but hey.EoE's ending was fantastic. Their was literally no better way to end the series.
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Would you believe EoE was the first time I ever saw or even heard of Evangelion? They played it on HBO years back at night.
I had no idea what was going on but it seemed really great. :V
I had no idea what was going on but it seemed really great. :V
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
I think there's a definite downward spiral to be found in the show's atmosphere. For a few episodes after Asuka's arrival, it seems like Shinji might break out of his shell a little and things show signs of working out for everyone, but then everything kind of implodes. In fact, I'd say it divides pretty neatly into four distinct, successive moods: bad, better, bad, worse.Alkaloid wrote:I dunno if I would say the show got darker either, it just came to its logical conclusion. I can't point to many episodes even early on that were all sweetness and light, even the synchronised dance fighting one had its darkish and kinda creepy twist.
I get the impression that's a pretty common way of getting into the show. People see EoE and want to know WTF they just saw, so they go and watch the series from the start. Even if you don't quite follow along with the movie, it's a pretty intense and memorable experience, I think.CaptHawkeye wrote:Would you believe EoE was the first time I ever saw or even heard of Evangelion? They played it on HBO years back at night.
I had no idea what was going on but it seemed really great. :V
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
You're getting what I'm saying backwards. Read again. You're thinking that people dislike it because they don't understand it: I am saying that they don't try to understand it because they don't like it, and that alone could account for a lot of the people who claim they were confused by it. Most people don't put mental effort into understanding things that they don't enjoy or stories which go 90 degrees to the genre they expected. If that's confusing you, think of it this way: they came for the giant robits, and were confused and outraged when the show dropped the pretense of being part of that genre at the last minute.Alkaloid wrote:Yeah those are reasons people don't like it, but it's the genuine confusion. There seeme to be a huge number of people who never worked out what SEELE/Gendo were doing, or what the third impact was all about and seem completely baffled by what the last tw episodes are, as if they are entirely disconnected from the rest of the show. I don't know how, it just wasn't that complicated.
Also, the lack of framework to understand surrealist narrative and the possible contradictions with the (slightly) more straightforward End of Evangelion film are valid reasons someone might be confused by the series ending. Or even by EoE's own surrealist scenes. It just isn't an art form many people come in contact with on a daily basis.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Really, the "logical conclusions" of Eva were always intended to be dark. Its a deconstruction of 1980's and 90's super robits anime cliche's. What else would you expect, given the various shades of triumph most of those shows had?Bright wrote:I think there's a definite downward spiral to be found in the show's atmosphere. For a few episodes after Asuka's arrival, it seems like Shinji might break out of his shell a little and things show signs of working out for everyone, but then everything kind of implodes. In fact, I'd say it divides pretty neatly into four distinct, successive moods: bad, better, bad, worse.Alkaloid wrote:I dunno if I would say the show got darker either, it just came to its logical conclusion. I can't point to many episodes even early on that were all sweetness and light, even the synchronised dance fighting one had its darkish and kinda creepy twist.
A friend of mine tried to introduce me to the Eva that way. I was confused.I get the impression that's a pretty common way of getting into the show. People see EoE and want to know WTF they just saw, so they go and watch the series from the start. Even if you don't quite follow along with the movie, it's a pretty intense and memorable experience, I think.CaptHawkeye wrote:Would you believe EoE was the first time I ever saw or even heard of Evangelion? They played it on HBO years back at night.
I had no idea what was going on but it seemed really great. :V
![Razz :P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
But seriously, at the time I didn't really think about anime as a separate thing from western animation (oh, and my friend only brought the subtitled version. Yay?) and it was years until I bothered finding out what the fuck I watched that night. I didn't regret it, though that's partially because it introduced me to other, less obtuse anime.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Correction:70s and 80s robot anime. The show owes quite a bit to Mazinger Z for its deconstruction. Or at least, mostly the sanitized TV Version. Go Nagai hit on a lot of the darker elements in the manga when he first wrote it.Formless wrote:Really, the "logical conclusions" of Eva were always intended to be dark. Its a deconstruction of 1980's and 90's super robits anime cliche's. What else would you expect, given the various shades of triumph most of those shows had?
When Kabuto gets in to fight his grandpa's enemy Dr. Hell, he doesn't know what he is doing and wins only through the absurd power of Mazinger Z. And, like in the recent adaptation "Shin Mazinger", he accidently kills people without realizing it when he first pilots it.
There's other parallels between their basic setup of Kabuto Koji/His Granpda and Shinji/Gendo, but taken to a deconstructive place, with heavy abandonment issues and so on.
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Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Okay, lets just settle on a compromise proposition: all Robit anime since the seventies is deconstructed in Eva. The whole show isn't just about Shinji/Gendo. Last I checked, Asuka was a deconstruction of the usual "arrogant rival" archetype found in "real" robot anime series like Gundam and so on. Happy, Majin Nitpick? ![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Well, I could go on and talk about the influences of Devilman and Ultraman on eva in terms off scenes, visuals, and other little details, but .. .Formless wrote:Okay, lets just settle on a compromise proposition: all Robit anime since the seventies is deconstructed in Eva. The whole show isn't just about Shinji/Gendo. Last I checked, Asuka was a deconstruction of the usual "arrogant rival" archetype found in "real" robot anime series like Gundam and so on. Happy, Majin Nitpick?
![Almost Angelic :angelic:](./images/smilies/angel.gif)
ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Re: Chuck does Evangelion
I for one did not get it, and I watched the anime.
It jumped from fighting robots to ... Shinji in isolation to a window shattering and Shinji joining people... in heaven?
There were background plots yes, but I don't even know how others manage to connect the dots as they did.
It jumped from fighting robots to ... Shinji in isolation to a window shattering and Shinji joining people... in heaven?
There were background plots yes, but I don't even know how others manage to connect the dots as they did.
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
The surface meaning is always the easiest level to experience a work. I had no interest in any deeper themes or symbols until I started to understand the meanings of works I already enjoyed.
Re: Chuck does Evangelion
How does anyone arrive to the conclusion of collective hive mind?
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
I have no idea, because I hate Evangelion. I'm just saying that developing an ability to actually appreciate literature is a gradual process, and its best to start with things you already like. Its quite seldom a work is entirely devoid of meaning.
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Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Very true, it's why those X and Philosophy books exist.
Hell, I started learning that stuff using Godzilla and Buffy.
Hell, I started learning that stuff using Godzilla and Buffy.
ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Re: Chuck does Evangelion
Pretty sure I only started to care about 'themes' and 'messages' rewatching Blake's 7. So it really doesn't matter where you start, so long as you decide to be open to that level of the text.