Best/Worst military forces in Science Fiction

[PainRack]

Thing is, they KNEW there were Rebel commandos there. The natives might not have been a threat at all, but they lost sight of their objective (defend the shield generator until the rebel fleet is wiped out), got overstretched and scattered in the forest and then defeated in detail.

Errr........ How do you parse that? The Stormtrooper legions were assigned to external security. The Naval troopers were assigned to internal security.

We know that stormtroopers were assisting in internal security because of the stunt Han pulled, when he pulled out various troopers and ambushed them. The interesting question is more of the numbers. The Rebel commandoes might had been more effective than we thought.

There were issues with coordination and etc, but its certainly doesn't become some huge doctrinal flaw.

[PainRack]

I'm not going to argue that the tactics employed were optimal, but you seem to be implying that Starfleet somehow lost that battle, when they didn't - they actually held it and defeated the jem'hadar.

Which suggests that the Jem Hadar were even more incompetent than the Taliban, not that Starfleet was competent.

Here's the thing with their doctrine. Starfleet had no heavy weapons support, no ability to suppress fire, no indirect fire seen in that battle. None. Even though such a large detachment in real life would had machine guns and mortar assigned to it. This ignores the fact that an entrenched infantry platoon would had either dug in or built up defences, from fortifications to overhead cover... which was moot since we know the Jem Hadar didn't deploy any mortars either.

And of course, barbed wire to funnel enemy movement further and other tactics. Now, the subspace mines might explain why Starfleet couldn't entrench themselves further to shape the battlefield, but their lack of heavy weapons support or even their OWN minefield is proof positive that the security detachment assigned to that battle was ill-equipped, ill-trained and not optimally deployed.

This isn't situational mistakes like what the Galactic Empire did. Its endemic, since we know they were there for over a month. And before the ill supplied gets brought up, remember, the Defiant JUST brought them supplies.

[lPeregrine]

This isn't situational mistakes like what the Galactic Empire did. Its endemic, since we know they were there for over a month.

Even worse, they're just average troops. The Empire's worst stupidity at Endor could be explained by the "best troops" being the best because they were especially loyal/had ties to a politically influential faction/etc, not because of their elite skills in combat. With the Federation we don't really see that kind of excuse, the poor equipment and lack of sensible strategy seems to be a universal problem.

[Simon_Jester]

Here we go again...

OK, this incident's been analyzed to death over and over for years; does it prove Starfleet is the worst of the worst? Because if not, isn't it kind of a moot point as far as this thread's concerned?

[PainRack]

To be honest, it isn't the worst only because Starfleet security/marines get more techno toys to play with than some other science fiction military like the Jaffa.

The easiest way to compare a science fiction military is to compare it to what real life militaries would had done in an identical situation, and then extrapolate what a real life military would had done if it had enjoyed the tech science fiction militaries had. The debacle at Endor came about because of situational mistakes made in command. There was flaws in their tactics, for example, prisoners capture. Prisoners are supposed to be disarmed as well as bound, the Rebels were only disarmed, but this just means that they weren't "elite".

The battle of Ar-158 and other situation, such as the boarding of USS Enterprise by the Remans just reveals that Starfleet Security do not have the equipment, the doctrine or the training that a modern day military would have had. And to be honest, some see this as perfectly ok, because Starfleet were explorers first, scientists second, security last.


To be honest, I'm surprised nobody has brought out the UN of Freehold as being the most incompetent military by fiat.

[Stofsk]

I'm not going to argue that the tactics employed were optimal, but you seem to be implying that Starfleet somehow lost that battle, when they didn't - they actually held it and defeated the jem'hadar.

Which suggests that the Jem Hadar were even more incompetent than the Taliban, not that Starfleet was competent.

Actually, I saw the episode recently as this thread spurred me to watch it for like the first time. Starfleet comes across a lot more competent than you give them credit for.

Here's the thing with their doctrine. Starfleet had no heavy weapons support, no ability to suppress fire, no indirect fire seen in that battle. None. Even though such a large detachment in real life would had machine guns and mortar assigned to it. This ignores the fact that an entrenched infantry platoon would had either dug in or built up defences, from fortifications to overhead cover...

How do you know that they didn't have those things and we just didn't see them? How do you know they had those things at the start, but they broke down or were destroyed by jem'hadar raids or they didn't have enough ammunition for them? The episode clearly states they had been deployed for a long time and were short on supplies. They also said that they had suffered like two thirds of their force being reduced to attrition and demoralising weaponry like houdini subspace mines. That they didn't have heavy weapons deployed or things like force field projectors is a bad thing, I agree. That's either a logistics failure, or my preferred explanation is that those defences suffered from the same attrition as the rest of the unit did. But it might also be something that the Defiant was intended to correct, but whoops! The Defiant was chased out of orbit by jem'hadar fighters.

PS You mention it later that Sisko was there to deliver supplies, but it was clear from his reaction that the garrison was in much worse shape than he thought.

EDIT Also, the Defiant may have been chased out of orbit before it could even beam down any supplies. Sisko and his away team didn't beam down with anything, and they may have gone down to assess the state of the garrison before bringing in supplies, to determine WHAT supplies to beam down.

which was moot since we know the Jem Hadar didn't deploy any mortars either.

Or... the subspace mines took out a lot of jem'hadar including their heavy weapon equipment. We know the jem'hadar have mortars, or some kind of artillery or perhaps even ortillery, and powerful ones too. ('The Ship') Or they didn't use those kind of equipment because they wanted to retake the base, possibly to retrieve strategic equipment rather than destroy it (the base was a Dominion communications centre; if they wanted to destroy it they could have done so from orbit).

And of course, barbed wire to funnel enemy movement further and other tactics. Now, the subspace mines might explain why Starfleet couldn't entrench themselves further to shape the battlefield, but their lack of heavy weapons support or even their OWN minefield is proof positive that the security detachment assigned to that battle was ill-equipped, ill-trained and not optimally deployed.

They were ill-equipped, from what I believe was due to attrition wearing down their defences over time. What is the basis for saying they were ill-trained? They had been deployed for a long time, too long even, and they were suffering morale issues and fatigue, yet they nevertheless won the battle against a numerically superior force using tactics (mining the entrance to the base complex with mines took out a lot of jem'hadar and the ones that were left tried to storm the position, most of which were cut down) EDIT and they were pretty accurate with their fire too, and were behind cover.

This isn't situational mistakes like what the Galactic Empire did. Its endemic, since we know they were there for over a month. And before the ill supplied gets brought up, remember, the Defiant JUST brought them supplies.

Yeah, they brought them shit like food rations and those sort of supplies. We actually don't know what supplies they brought down, in fact, as I said above, we don't even know if they had time to bring down ANY supplies. Sisko wasn't briefed that the garrison had suffered so many casualties and he didn't know what state they were in. They went from around a company sized deployment to a platoon sized, and that was over a five month period. The jem'hadar landed 'two columns' to attack the base, but I don't know what a 'column' is. It was implied to be a lot of troops though. And you're clearly forgetting how the Defiant had been chased out of orbit, stranding Sisko and his away team down there along with the garrison, with shit all supplies and a bunch of surly, hopeless troops who were combatting fatigue and bad morale.

The first thing Sisko did was get Nog to go out with a recon party and get Ezri to work with one of the garrison's few remaining tech experts to counter the houdinis. Tricorders don't work to detect jem'hadar who are cloaked, but Nog's superior hearing would give them an edge. The recon party was successful, albeit suffering casualties. But if Nog hadn't gone with them, the recon party would have failed. Ezri and Lennier worked on the houdinis and managed to disable them; Sisko then ordered them to be gathered up and redeployed against the jem'hadar by protecting the base. Now you hit on a good point that why didn't Starfleet have their own minefield, or whatever, but I can easily see that being the sort of thing the houdinis had prevented, along with constant raids by jem'hadar over the months. In any case, I don't see this as a huge failure on Starfleet's part, even when the inevitable attack came and people go 'why you don't have LMGs!!!', the Starfleet defenders were sitting behind cover and were accurate enough to take out lots and lots of jem'hadar. Would the inclusion of a LMG have made it an even more one-sided affair? Sure. Although I'd prefer the phaser cannon we see in 'The Cage', but on the other hand I'm not going to go 'Star Trek sux!' over it. This isn't anything like the fucking Empire's failure to protect the bunker at Endor. Because holy shit, the Trek side had a lot of disadvantages that you're counting against them, yet they still prevailed. The Empire had everything going for them; better weaponry, more numbers, the ability to FUCKING LOCK THE BUNKER'S DOORS. And what happened? Teddy bears caused the Stormtroopers to go off into the woods, and the idiot in charge of the base couldn't recognise that the AT-ST pilot wasn't one of his own men.

To be honest, it isn't the worst only because Starfleet security/marines get more techno toys to play with than some other science fiction military like the Jaffa.

The easiest way to compare a science fiction military is to compare it to what real life militaries would had done in an identical situation, and then extrapolate what a real life military would had done if it had enjoyed the tech science fiction militaries had. The debacle at Endor came about because of situational mistakes made in command. There was flaws in their tactics, for example, prisoners capture. Prisoners are supposed to be disarmed as well as bound, the Rebels were only disarmed, but this just means that they weren't "elite".

Yeah, except the Emperor outright says they were his finest troops.

As far as a modern day military would do in the AR-558 scenario, maybe they'd do better. Assuming perfect conditions. But I get the feeling a lot of people would give the real life military every advantage without accounting for how the Starfleet garrison was under-supplied and under-strength. Would a platoon of battle fatigued soldiers with bad morale do any better against two companies of fresh enemy troops, when all they had were assault rifles and claymores? Even given only the one entrance to their base?

The battle of Ar-158 and other situation, such as the boarding of USS Enterprise by the Remans just reveals that Starfleet Security do not have the equipment, the doctrine or the training that a modern day military would have had. And to be honest, some see this as perfectly ok, because Starfleet were explorers first, scientists second, security last.

Well you hit on what I was going to say but yeah, they are explorers and scientists first, anything else second.

This isn't situational mistakes like what the Galactic Empire did. Its endemic, since we know they were there for over a month.

Even worse, they're just average troops. The Empire's worst stupidity at Endor could be explained by the "best troops" being the best because they were especially loyal/had ties to a politically influential faction/etc, not because of their elite skills in combat. With the Federation we don't really see that kind of excuse, the poor equipment and lack of sensible strategy seems to be a universal problem.

Rubbish. Not only from what I wrote in the above, but you're taking one single example of the Federation having a poorly supplied unit that had suffered two thirds losses, and somehow making that 'the norm', when that does not follow. The fact that they were described as average troops, rather than some elite force, is a mark in favour of Starfleet not against. The Emperor said the dudes on Endor were his finest legion. You can't handwave that shit away by going 'well maybe the Empire's best isn't all that good, therefore they don't suck (???)'. That is literally the dumbest thing I've heard in defence of the Empire.

[Daefaron]

Nerve pinch, held phaser to forehead and held trigger down for a long while?

A nerve pinch would still involve getting close to them, with the risk of the other causing trouble - she probably just stunned both of them from normal range, then killed them with sustained close-range stun shots to the head.

I was meaning she approaches both men, nerve pinches at same time, then does the stunning.

The battle of Ar-158 and other situation, such as the boarding of USS Enterprise by the Remans just reveals that Starfleet Security do not have the equipment, the doctrine or the training that a modern day military would have had. And to be honest, some see this as perfectly ok, because Starfleet were explorers first, scientists second, security last.

Yeah, I'd say a modern military could do better, because I'm fairly sure modern assault rifles can lay down a more deadly crossfire then those phaser rifles.

And by more deadly, I mean, more wounding/killing shots out quicker, not actual damage. Yeah a phaser can do more individual damage, but they couldn't produce a crossfire that could cut down the Jem'hadar fast enough. Bullets, on the other hand, I think may have.

I won't say Starfleet is incompetent, and without knowing the exact details (I'll search them later), wasn't AR-558 in Chintoka? So why did the Defiant get pushed out. I thought it was a major staging ground and they had fleets there in force <_<. Really, knowing what they were facing (Fans of melee combat) I would've expected them to prepare for that. It kind seemed like they weren't as I recall.

Edit: Dangit, had another point I was going to say... but I forgot. If I remember I'll post it later .

Edit: About Endor, they might've been tricked, but as my last watching of the ground battle, they actually didn't loose THAT many stormtroopers to the Ewoks. At least, at first. (I'm sure after the initial strikes some Ewoks pulled helms off to smash skulls.) They lost more men to the rebel commandos I believe.

As for Palp's comment. His rule was one of intimidation. Is it surprising he'd spout lines to try to demoralize his opponents? .

[RogueIce]

Eh, they're Starfleet Security, not Federation Army. Which for whatever reason seems to be all they have. Is that a failing for the UFP? Probably. But to say that those poor goldshirts 'suck' is like saying the NYPD 'sucks' because they'd get steamrolled by the Russian Army, if it somehow teleported into Manhattan and started shit.

As far as artillery and all that, I would tend to say that yes, it has been phased out by TNG. They had more stuff during TOS but that was TOS, so you'd have to define eras. I suppose, in theory, they could bring it back but that would take time unless they happen to have those TOS-era designs in the replicators ready to go and there isn't some technobabble element preventing their replication. We do see them shifting a bit with the FC rifle and Worf's RPG in Insurrection, though we have no real way of knowing how far it went. Or if they'll snap back post-Dominion War in 50 years or so.

And c'mon, saying "well maybe they do we just never saw it" is a little reaching, isn't it? I could say the Empire has a few thousand SSDs flying around, we just never saw them, but hey they could because Death Stars, right? Unless there was some mention of "man it sucks our artillery was taken out" or something I'd go with no, they do not in fact have the TOS Cannon just offscreen somewhere.

(PS: UNSC artillery was seen in Halo Wars so there game canon :smugdog: )

So yeah, as Picard has pointed out to us before, Starfleet isn't a military so saying they're the 'worst military force' is kinda cheating. Sucks for the UFP I guess but they seem to manage nonetheless (even if it costs them dearly like in the Dominion War) but that's a choice the Federation Council made. Maybe they would have Space Artillery and Space Mortars and Space Tanks if they actually fielded a Federation Army but they don't. So for my money Starfleet escapes the list on a technicality.

[Bakustra]

What I don't get about this thread is why so many people are assuming that a fascist military is going to be hyper-efficient and godly at everything it does. The Empire is essentially a fascist state, and fascist states at best pretend efficiency while generally being massive failures within. It's arguable that the Nazis, for example, only won as long as they did because they were drawing upon a professional officer corps that was largely non-Nazi. So with the Empire being far more pro-Palpatine than Germany was pro-Nazi, why should we assume that they're secretly competent rather than being the bunch of psychotic bunglers most fascists have been in real life?

[Lord Revan]

What I don't get about this thread is why so many people are assuming that a fascist military is going to be hyper-efficient and godly at everything it does. The Empire is essentially a fascist state, and fascist states at best pretend efficiency while generally being massive failures within. It's arguable that the Nazis, for example, only won as long as they did because they were drawing upon a professional officer corps that was largely non-Nazi. So with the Empire being far more pro-Palpatine than Germany was pro-Nazi, why should we assume that they're secretly competent rather than being the bunch of psychotic bunglers most fascists have been in real life?

you kind of have point but IIRC fasist generals weren't so much imcompitent failures to the man as highly variable due to loyality to the leaders being ranked high then military skill. basically we shouldn't assume imperial war machine has no skilled leaders either.

[Bakustra]

What I don't get about this thread is why so many people are assuming that a fascist military is going to be hyper-efficient and godly at everything it does. The Empire is essentially a fascist state, and fascist states at best pretend efficiency while generally being massive failures within. It's arguable that the Nazis, for example, only won as long as they did because they were drawing upon a professional officer corps that was largely non-Nazi. So with the Empire being far more pro-Palpatine than Germany was pro-Nazi, why should we assume that they're secretly competent rather than being the bunch of psychotic bunglers most fascists have been in real life?

you kind of have point but IIRC fasist generals weren't so much imcompitent failures to the man as highly variable due to loyality to the leaders being ranked high then military skill. basically we shouldn't assume imperial war machine has no skilled leaders either.

That's true, but the larger issue is of systemic failures, and the Empire's can largely be assumed as a product of their fascism.

[Simon_Jester]

What I don't get about this thread is why so many people are assuming that a fascist military is going to be hyper-efficient and godly at everything it does.

Who? Where? Did Patroklos sneak in here around Page Four while I wasn't looking or something?

[Bakustra]

What I don't get about this thread is why so many people are assuming that a fascist military is going to be hyper-efficient and godly at everything it does.

Who? Where? Did Patroklos sneak in here around Page Four while I wasn't looking or something?

Everybody arguing that the Galactic Empire is actually highly competent and one of the best militaries in science fiction, starting from around page 2. A gentlemen never names names, particularly when there's double digits involved.

[Simon_Jester]

Still not seeing it, except maybe Batman. Even he seemed to be doing this kneejerk "they're not actually that crappy" thing because a few people are nominating it for worst army ever. Not so much going "woo fascism!" and nominating it for best army ever.

You sure about this? If double-digit numbers of people were doing it, then this whole "gentlemen don't name names" thing doesn't make a lot of sense, because it should be really easy to back up.

[Stofsk]

And c'mon, saying "well maybe they do we just never saw it" is a little reaching, isn't it? I could say the Empire has a few thousand SSDs flying around, we just never saw them, but hey they could because Death Stars, right? Unless there was some mention of "man it sucks our artillery was taken out" or something I'd go with no, they do not in fact have the TOS Cannon just offscreen somewhere.

The point I was making is you can't generalise from one atypical event where the unit is explicitly mentioned to be under-strength and having suffered attrition, and surmising that that's the norm. And while we don't see them use artillery in TNG/DS9, we rarely ever see them fight land battles with massive armies anyway, and we do know Starfleet once upon a time used mortars/grenade launchers. (and as far as grenades are concerned, Leyton mentioned them in 'Homefront' and Geordi did in 'Legacy' IIRC, so it's not some fabled lost tech of yesteryear)

I was not saying they had a phaser cannon lying about somewhere and they just didn't use it. But if the garrison was at a hundred fifty men and suffered such losses over months of deployment, why don't you think their equipment suffered from attrition and loss too?

[RogueIce]

And c'mon, saying "well maybe they do we just never saw it" is a little reaching, isn't it? I could say the Empire has a few thousand SSDs flying around, we just never saw them, but hey they could because Death Stars, right? Unless there was some mention of "man it sucks our artillery was taken out" or something I'd go with no, they do not in fact have the TOS Cannon just offscreen somewhere.

The point I was making is you can't generalise from one atypical event where the unit is explicitly mentioned to be under-strength and having suffered attrition, and surmising that that's the norm. And while we don't see them use artillery in TNG/DS9, we rarely ever see them fight land battles with massive armies anyway, and we do know Starfleet once upon a time used mortars/grenade launchers. (and as far as grenades are concerned, Leyton mentioned them in 'Homefront' and Geordi did in 'Legacy' IIRC, so it's not some fabled lost tech of yesteryear)

I was not saying they had a phaser cannon lying about somewhere and they just didn't use it. But if the garrison was at a hundred fifty men and suffered such losses over months of deployment, why don't you think their equipment suffered from attrition and loss too?

Point on the grenades.

As far as the rest of it, while yes it is possible their phaser cannon got taken out before The Sisko and crew arrived, we also have no way of knowing if they ever had one to begin with. So you can literally go back and forth on it all day.

I mean, it's possible, and maybe they do because TOS did, but maybe they got rid of it. Like how they stopped bothering with the armor* since TOS. Just saying that, within the timeframe of TNG/DS9/VOY, it appears that Starfleet no longer equips large phaser cannons, mortars, body armor, etc. I would certainly say they can field those items, if they chose to do so. But from what we saw they apparently don't. Which kinda fits with the notion of them being Space Cops rather than Space Army.

*As far as the armor, I wonder if it wasn't some kind of ceremonial/honor guard thing. I mean, we see it in ST3 and TMP, but by ST5 and those "Federation Forces" Kirk took to the planet, none of them had any armor on.

[FaxModem1]

I nominate Star Command from Buzz Lightyear. Every time a space battle is about to happen, they eject the entire crew and have them fight the enemy one on one in spacesuits.

[Simon_Jester]

Does it work?

If it's stupid, but it works, it's not stupid.

Except maybe if it only works by luck, or by the enemy being even stupider.

[FaxModem1]

In taking out the small robotic infantry, yes. But more often than not it means that Zerg or whatever villain of the week gets away, or achieves their objective.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'd say that in the TNG era they probably had cut back on the 'military' hardware, probably for philosohpical reasons as much as to save interior space and such. But prior to that and during the DS9 era (and onwards) it seems like they transitioned from (and back to) a more 'militant' aspect. That would, to me, suggest that they were forced by circumstance (Borg, Dominion, etc.) to take a more militant approach to things wheras in the Post TOS/pre Borg TNG era they seemed to have a more peaceful, optimistic outlook.

Given what I read up on AR-558 that probably isn't an ideal example to use, as logistics seemed to be a huge problem for the forces on the ground (the Federation were the attackers there, not the defenders, IIRc.) and that's likely to create all sorts of problems. What's more, if they are transitioning back to a 'military' footing from a peacetime/exploration one, there are likely to be other logistical problems in manufacturing and providing all the needed equipment. Nevermind shipping it there. Just because they have replicators does not mean logistics goes away, or bottlenecks can't crop up, and thus STarfleet is forced to make choices about who gets what and where. Same thing with training and recruitment for ground forces, R&D, and other aspects which can influence particular situations.

Which leads to an interesting question. Just how narrow a focus can one go in 'measuring' military forces? I find it hard to believe that we should focus on specific examples to the expense of all else regardless of universe. For that matter, to what extent do real life and military parallels get applied in sci fi? Does ST suck becuase they don't use tanks and IFVs and helicopters, or is it more complex than that?

There's also a 'long term vs short term' aspect here. focusing on one single battle is definitely short term, but what about trends, and knowledge? How far do single 'examples' (or however many examples we use) apply as far as time goes? how do we factor in prior knowledge? Do they still have it, and if not how did they lose it? How long does it take them to adapt and 're-discover' that past info and apply it? What about Cultural, economic, and political aspects? don't they impact the military as well?

Basically as Stark mentioned earlier to my previous statement, why is an important question to ask in these situations, as well as looking at all the different (and probably inter-related) aspects of it.

[Sea Skimmer]

Blaming logistics is absurd, Defiant arrived and beamed down a few guys, including Sisko who had no reason what so ever to land in the first place, with a few small boxes of replicator supplies and that was it. No reason exists why they couldn't have beamed down pallets of razor wire, grenades and mortars instead of people without using any extra time, never mind that Defiant stays in orbit a while before being forced to flee by Dominion ships.

If they had other weapons they could have sent them, and since DS9 has industrial replicators its not like they couldn't have made a lot of useful basic stuff on the spot if they had any conception of its need or value. All the more so since Bajor is nearby and could be used as a source of basic materials if they didn't exist on the station. It doesn't take many chemicals before you can make a functional landmine. Then stack the corridors of Defiant around the transporter room with supplies.

Its pretty blatant they had nothing else to land because they had no conception of what they were doing. This is after AR-588 had been held for months too, not like it was the second day of needing to hold a ground installation or something more excusable like that. The first world war is a nice example of what happens when you are caught unprepared.... and people dragged out every old weapon possible as quickly as they could to fight with. Blackpowder mortars made in the 18th century were being used in late 1914. Stuff like this is all the more retarded when certain DS9 characters have shown a strong interest in the military history of earth....

[Stofsk]

Blaming logistics is absurd, Defiant arrived and beamed down a few guys, including Sisko who had no reason what so ever to land in the first place, with a few small boxes of replicator supplies and that was it. No reason exists why they couldn't have beamed down pallets of razor wire, grenades and mortars instead of people without using any extra time, never mind that Defiant stays in orbit a while before being forced to flee by Dominion ships.

They were chased out of orbit pretty soon after they arrived. Sisko has enough time to talk to Larkin and briefly assess the garrison personally before they get the call from Worf that the Defiant was under attack. They had the replicator rations and medical supplies ready to beam down; they didn't have time to call up and ask O'Brien to cook up some static defences on the fly. Maybe they could have if they hadn't been chased off.

It was also mentioned that Starfleet was stretched thin in the system. So why wouldn't this be a logistics issue?

[Sea Skimmer]

Lack of warships isn't a logistical issue unless they aren't present from lack of fuel or other supplies. Its an economy of force problem. You can be the best supplied military ever, see US military everywhere, and still not have enough actual combat forces.

The mission was a planned supply run, and they beamed down unnecessary personal out of hand, and they already knew the outpost was important. Only real explanation is they were too stupid to bring any other supplies or plan in any rational manner. Even if the situation wasn't as bad as it was failing to bring more material is still just ridiculously stupid.

[lPeregrine]

So yeah, as Picard has pointed out to us before, Starfleet isn't a military so saying they're the 'worst military force' is kinda cheating. Sucks for the UFP I guess but they seem to manage nonetheless (even if it costs them dearly like in the Dominion War) but that's a choice the Federation Council made. Maybe they would have Space Artillery and Space Mortars and Space Tanks if they actually fielded a Federation Army but they don't. So for my money Starfleet escapes the list on a technicality.

And that's exactly the problem. The Federation wants to treat Starfleet as some kind of hybrid police/exploration force (though why the police need battleships, who knows), but that isn't how Starfleet is used. Whatever their formal title, they're used as the Federation's military, making the refusal to treat them like a proper military (complete with equipment/training/etc) a pretty shocking example of incompetence.

Which leads to an interesting question. Just how narrow a focus can one go in 'measuring' military forces? I find it hard to believe that we should focus on specific examples to the expense of all else regardless of universe. For that matter, to what extent do real life and military parallels get applied in sci fi? Does ST suck becuase they don't use tanks and IFVs and helicopters, or is it more complex than that?

It depends on whether they need those things or not. If a military doesn't have tanks, but never loses a battle where tanks could have made a difference, it's a sensible choice of tools. Whether it's because tanks have become obsolete, the military in question has another unit that fills the role of a tank, etc, that's just an odd detail about that universe and doesn't count against them. If, on the other hand, that military loses over and over because they don't have tanks and never seems to learn from their losses, it's incompetence.

The problem with the Federation isn't just the lack of specific weapons A, B and C, it's the fact that we see situations where those weapons would be useful, but they don't exist. So either the Federation is incompetent in rejecting useful weapons because of their absurd pacifist ideology, or the Federation is incompetent in failing to distribute their weapons to the troops that actually need them.

[PeZook]

Errr........ How do you parse that? The Stormtrooper legions were assigned to external security. The Naval troopers were assigned to internal security.

I'm not sure what you're saying here...do you agree, disagree, or what?

I'm not saying it was a doctrinal flaw of the Empire, but tactically at least it's hard NOT to call Endor a massive bungle. But as I wrote, hardly the worst ever, since pretty much all armies had those. It's just embarassing because it was such an important engagement - and also, tactically speaking, not something terribly innovative on the Rebel part.

---

Now, I have to note here something about Starfleet. I think saying "they're explorers first, so obviously they can't fight" is a copout, because explorers are expected to face the unknown.

So an exploring organization will have lots of scientists, technical experts etc. but they will also need good scouts and soldiers, because you don't know what you will run into. You might need to protect your scientists and engineers from all sorts of dangers, hostile alien races, dangerous wildlife etc.

You'd also extensively cross-train your people, teach them various techniques of wilderness survival...

Still, occasional incompetence doesn't make Starfleet the worst ever. The worst ever are DEFINITELY Freehold UN, who have literally all the advantages (more numbers, more warships, vastly bigger economy etc.) but cannot handle one little rebellious libertarian colony because they constantly do things like refuse to use lethal weapons during an invasion.

They also fold completely after one massive terrorist attack which doesn't touch their war industry at all.