Why working-class people vote conservative

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madd0ct0r
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Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by madd0ct0r »

from here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/ ... nservative
Why on Earth would a working-class person ever vote for a conservative candidate? This question has obsessed the American left since Ronald Reagan first captured the votes of so many union members, farmers, urban Catholics and other relatively powerless people – the so-called "Reagan Democrats". Isn't the Republican party the party of big business? Don't the Democrats stand up for the little guy, and try to redistribute the wealth downwards?

The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion
by Jonathan Haidt

Many commentators on the left have embraced some version of the duping hypothesis: the Republican party dupes people into voting against their economic interests by triggering outrage on cultural issues. "Vote for us and we'll protect the American flag!" say the Republicans. "We'll make English the official language of the United States! And most importantly, we'll prevent gay people from threatening your marriage when they … marry! Along the way we'll cut taxes on the rich, cut benefits for the poor, and allow industries to dump their waste into your drinking water, but never mind that. Only we can protect you from gay, Spanish-speaking flag-burners!"

One of the most robust findings in social psychology is that people find ways to believe whatever they want to believe. And the left really want to believe the duping hypothesis. It absolves them from blame and protects them from the need to look in the mirror or figure out what they stand for in the 21st century.

Here's a more painful but ultimately constructive diagnosis, from the point of view of moral psychology: politics at the national level is more like religion than it is like shopping. It's more about a moral vision that unifies a nation and calls it to greatness than it is about self-interest or specific policies. In most countries, the right tends to see that more clearly than the left. In America the Republicans did the hard work of drafting their moral vision in the 1970s, and Ronald Reagan was their eloquent spokesman. Patriotism, social order, strong families, personal responsibility (not government safety nets) and free enterprise. Those are values, not government programmes.

The Democrats, in contrast, have tried to win voters' hearts by promising to protect or expand programmes for elderly people, young people, students, poor people and the middle class. Vote for us and we'll use government to take care of everyone! But most Americans don't want to live in a nation based primarily on caring. That's what families are for.

One reason the left has such difficulty forging a lasting connection with voters is that the right has a built-in advantage – conservatives have a broader moral palate than the liberals (as we call leftists in the US). Think about it this way: our tongues have taste buds that are responsive to five classes of chemicals, which we perceive as sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and savoury. Sweetness is generally the most appealing of the five tastes, but when it comes to a serious meal, most people want more than that.

In the same way, you can think of the moral mind as being like a tongue that is sensitive to a variety of moral flavours. In my research with colleagues at YourMorals.org, we have identified six moral concerns as the best candidates for being the innate "taste buds" of the moral sense: care/harm, fairness/cheating, liberty/oppression, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, and sanctity/degradation. Across many kinds of surveys, in the UK as well as in the USA, we find that people who self-identify as being on the left score higher on questions about care/harm. For example, how much would someone have to pay you to kick a dog in the head? Nobody wants to do this, but liberals say they would require more money than conservatives to cause harm to an innocent creature.

But on matters relating to group loyalty, respect for authority and sanctity (treating things as sacred and untouchable, not only in the context of religion), it sometimes seems that liberals lack the moral taste buds, or at least, their moral "cuisine" makes less use of them. For example, according to our data, if you want to hire someone to criticise your nation on a radio show in another nation (loyalty), give the finger to his boss (authority), or sign a piece of paper stating one's willingness to sell his soul (sanctity), you can save a lot of money by posting a sign: "Conservatives need not apply."

In America, it is these three moral foundations that underlie most of the "cultural" issues that, according to duping theorists, are used to distract voters from their self-interest. But are voters really voting against their self-interest when they vote for candidates who share their values? Loyalty, respect for authority and some degree of sanctification create a more binding social order that places some limits on individualism and egoism. As marriage rates plummet, and globalisation and rising diversity erodes the sense of common heritage within each nation, a lot of voters in many western nations find themselves hungering for conservative moral cuisine.

Despite being in the wake of a financial crisis that – if the duping theorists were correct – should have buried the cultural issues and pulled most voters to the left, we are finding in America and many European nations a stronger shift to the right. When people fear the collapse of their society, they want order and national greatness, not a more nurturing government.

Even on the two moral taste buds that both sides claim – fairness and liberty – the right can often outcook the left. The left typically thinks of equality as being central to fairness, and leftists are extremely sensitive about gross inequalities of outcome – particularly when they correspond along racial or ethnic lines. But the broader meaning of fairness is really proportionality – are people getting rewarded in proportion to the work they put into a common project? Equality of outcomes is only seen as fair by most people in the special case in which everyone has made equal contributions. The conservative media (such as the Daily Mail, or Fox News in the US) is much more sensitive to the presence of slackers and benefit cheats. They are very effective at stirring up outrage at the government for condoning cheating.

Similarly for liberty. Americans and Britons all love liberty, yet when liberty and care conflict, the left is more likely to choose care. This is the crux of the US's monumental battle over Obama's healthcare plan. Can the federal government compel some people to buy a product (health insurance) in order to make a plan work that extends care to 30 million other people? The derogatory term "nanny state" is rarely used against the right (pastygate being perhaps an exception). Conservatives are more cautious about infringing on individual liberties (eg of gun owners in the US and small businessmen) in order to protect vulnerable populations (such as children, animals and immigrants).

In sum, the left has a tendency to place caring for the weak, sick and vulnerable above all other moral concerns. It is admirable and necessary that some political party stands up for victims of injustice, racism or bad luck. But in focusing so much on the needy, the left often fails to address – and sometimes violates – other moral needs, hopes and concerns. When working-class people vote conservative, as most do in the US, they are not voting against their self-interest; they are voting for their moral interest. They are voting for the party that serves to them a more satisfying moral cuisine. The left in the UK and USA should think hard about their recipe for success in the 21st century.

Jonathan Haidt is a professor of psychology at New York University's Stern School of Business. He is the author of The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion. To take the survey described in this essay, visit http://www.yourmorals.org/express_welco ... edness.php
actually, to me it makes a lot of sense. It also suggests how expansive a vision offered by a political party must be to succeed.

I did have minor twitching at the concept of 'sanctity though'.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Sidewinder »

Makes sense. Hopefully, more politicians and political activists will take note of the lessons here, and protect otherwise noble goals from their own missteps. Instead of "Saving the environment is morally right, and more important than the timber industry! (And if you work for the timber industry, SCREW YOU!)" it should be "Saving the environment is in YOUR BEST INTEREST, and will help you SAVE MONEY you'd otherwise need to treat medical problems related to pollution." Likewise, a national healthcare program should appeal to people's wallets, e.g., "National healthcare will raise taxes, but will help you SAVE MONEY in the long term, by reducing the cost of medical care YOU WILL NEED in the future."
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Sidewinder »

madd0ct0r wrote:I did have minor twitching at the concept of 'sanctity though'.
Let's use flag burning as an example. A flag is the symbol of a nation- by extension, of its people (NOT JUST ITS GOVERNMENT). When protesters burn a nation's flag, this act is interpreted as an insult to the nation, just as defacing a religious symbol- a Koran, for example- is interpreted as an insult to the religion and its believers.

Sadly, when protesters burn THEIR OWN NATION'S flag to protest their government's policies, they forget the flag is also the symbol of the PEOPLE they claim to represent, and not just the government. Any wonder these tactics backfire?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Simon_Jester »

I don't think there's been a lot of flag-burning protests in the US lately. It's one of those convenient paper-tiger threats, insofar as it's still used on the right (which, frankly, I haven't heard a lot of in the past several years, so maybe awareness that it's a dead letter has trickled through).

More generally, I'm not entirely sure I buy this, mostly because it has the smell and taste of pat pop-psych "this is why people are like that" argument.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Junghalli »

Sidewinder wrote:Makes sense. Hopefully, more politicians and political activists will take note of the lessons here, and protect otherwise noble goals from their own missteps. Instead of "Saving the environment is morally right, and more important than the timber industry! (And if you work for the timber industry, SCREW YOU!)" it should be "Saving the environment is in YOUR BEST INTEREST, and will help you SAVE MONEY you'd otherwise need to treat medical problems related to pollution." Likewise, a national healthcare program should appeal to people's wallets, e.g., "National healthcare will raise taxes, but will help you SAVE MONEY in the long term, by reducing the cost of medical care YOU WILL NEED in the future."
Isn't this kind of the opposite of what the article suggests?

The point I got from the article is that the left puts too much attention on representing people's "interests" ("you should support this policy because it will materially benefit you and yours" etc.) and too little on presenting people with a compelling moral and social vision ("you should support us because we want a moral society") - something the right is relatively good at, even if you think the vision it presents is terrible. Basically, that the left seems to approach wooing voters as being like marketing, in that you want to present them with the best possible deal to entice them to buy your product, whereas the right seems to approach it as more like missionary work, where you want to offer people a compelling vision and belief-set they will want to convert to, and the latter is more effective than the former.

What I get from that is it suggests the left should do pretty much the opposite of what you're suggesting. Instead of justifying environmentalism on the basis that it will personally benefit you the voter, present it on the basis of being part of a coherent moral and social vision where the natural world has value and the resources and "ecosystem services" it represents should be fairly and sustainably distributed, and wasteful destruction of it to line some fatcat's pocket is evil. Instead of justifying national health care on the basis of being some goody you get from the government and you should support us because we'll give you this great deal, tie it in to a larger moral vision of what a fair and just society should look like.

I'm not sure if this nicely encompasses what the article is trying to say (I get the impression the thesis may be critical of the left's fundamental ideas rather than just its presentation of them), but unless I'm reading it, like, 180 from what it's actually saying Sidewinder's advice seems like an example of exactly what it's suggesting is wrong with the left's approach: heavy focus on appealing to people's pragmatic "interests".

Aside: I'm a little sympathetic to that part of the thesis myself. My impression: at least here in the USA, the right seems to better at using the language of morality than the left, despite the fact their idea of morality is terrible. It really seems rather perverse to me. I can't help thinking that a failure to really articulate and defend a strong coherent moral and social vision on the part of the left may have something to do with that.

Edit: the soundbite version of what I got from the article: the left's problem is it tends to sound like a car salesman while the right tends to sound like a preacher, and people tend to listen to the preacher over the car salesman.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by mr friendly guy »

To be honest, this smacks of just simply putting a spin on things. Remember when someone said, I am not close minded, I am Christ minded. Essentially they mean the same thing in that context. This guy is just doing the same thing.

They can wax poetry all they like about moral palate, but at the end of the day the question boils down to, do people vote against their interests (mostly) by voting for a candidate which shares some of their moral values. This boils down to what interests? I can vote for a candidate which may match my social values for example, but be a shitty economic manager, and hence goes against my economic interests. The same with people who vote for candidates with similar social views, but may manage the economy in favour of big business. At the end of the day, you vote for which one is more important to you. If you think stopping gays from marrying is more important than having a job etc, then live with the consequences.

The article never actually addresses this except as a rhetorical dress up. It starts off with saying the Republicans are believed by the left to dupe voters by appealing to cultural outrage even while going against their economic interests. It talks about how to appeal to the cultural factors, but never once refutes the point (nor attempts to) that they vote against their economic interests. All it states is the rhetorical trick, "But are voters really voting against their self-interest when they vote for candidates who share their values?" Its followed up by talking about cultural issues, but none of the economic ones. A classic switcheroo, and hence actually proving the point of the duping hypothesis. :D

Now this argument could be salvaged, if he comes right out and say 2 things. Conservatives (who also fit the relatively powerless people group) find cultural / moral factors more important than economic factors, and b) they are fully cognizant of this when voting - ie they are aware of a trade off so they aren't really "duped". The trade off being that they may be economically worse off, but thats ok, caring (by the government) is less important, because thats what families are for. Except when we want the government to provide fire fighters, police and military of course. :roll:

What the article was useful - is how to phrase the question in a way to convince conservatives. In a way its no different from the "cultural appropriate" explanation we are supposed to use when trying to convince people to vaccinate / take a particular medical treatment etc. As Broomstick once noted, its the cultural 'whoop whoop' that convinces them. To put a more simply example, if I preceded my views with God wants you to, some religious people might buy it. So it seems by phrasing it in terms of moral outrage we might get somewhere.

And a few thoughts.
One of the most robust findings in social psychology is that people find ways to believe whatever they want to believe.
You mean the WMDs in Iraq. You mean a magic man in the sky? Pot, kettle, black.
Despite being in the wake of a financial crisis that – if the duping theorists were correct – should have buried the cultural issues and pulled most voters to the left, we are finding in America and many European nations a stronger shift to the right.
Huh?
Countries swinging left
France has swung left with the election of Hollande.
Greece looks to be swinging left with Syriza gaining ground.
Ireland swung left with labour party PM, from Fianna Fáil a party consisting of both right and left elements (maybe centrist then).


countries awaiting an election
Germany hasn't had an election yet, and its already right, so how much further right can it swing.
Italy won't have one until 2013.

Countries swinging right
UK has swung from centre left to a coalition of convenience between right and left, so maybe a little bit right.
Spain swung right.
Portugal swung to a centre right party.


It seems to be a pretty mixed record to be honest, thus this swinging right strikes me as an exaggeration.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

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Junghalli wrote:Aside: I'm a little sympathetic to that part of the thesis myself. My impression: at least here in the USA, the right seems to better at using the language of morality than the left, despite the fact their idea of morality is terrible. It really seems rather perverse to me. I can't help thinking that a failure to really articulate and defend a strong coherent moral and social vision on the part of the left may have something to do with that.
The stereotypical American liberal seems unable to connect their moral ideals with the people's pragmatic interests- which, admittedly, are occasionally nebulous. To use gay marriage as an example, the conservatives' fearmongering convinces people that legalizing gay marriage would negatively affect the behavior of the voters' children. (Personally, I think that's bullshit- I doubt attending a gay marriage will make a child think, "When I grow up, I want to be gay, like the people getting married today!") When we're afraid, human nature- specifically, our survival instincts- tend to make us put our interests above other people's, and TO HELL with justice and equality.
mr friendly guy wrote:The same with people who vote for candidates with similar social views, but may manage the economy in favour of big business.
Big Business has successfully convinced Joe Average that their interests are aligned, i.e., if Big Business benefits, these benefits will spread down to Joe Average through Big Business' ability to offer better job opportunities, or if Big Business enjoys tax cuts, Joe Average will also enjoy them (eventually).
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Junghalli »

It seems to me that ripping off a saying about armies may be applicable here: you campaign to the voting populace you have, not the voting populace you want. If people tend to vote values instead of interests, whether you think they're dumb for doing so or not, it might not be a bad idea to tailor your rhetorical strategy accordingly.

Even if the "duping hypothesis" is an accurate description of what's happening, I think it's worth thinking about what has allowed the right to succeed in becoming the percieved party of morality for so much of the population, and whether one of the reasons for this is maybe that the left hasn't done the best job it could in the PR/rhetoric department, perhaps by (as the article suggests) failing to offer a compelling and coherent moral and social vision to match that offered up by the right.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

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Sidewinder wrote:Let's use flag burning as an example. A flag is the symbol of a nation- by extension, of its people (NOT JUST ITS GOVERNMENT). When protesters burn a nation's flag, this act is interpreted as an insult to the nation, just as defacing a religious symbol- a Koran, for example- is interpreted as an insult to the religion and its believers.

Sadly, when protesters burn THEIR OWN NATION'S flag to protest their government's policies, they forget the flag is also the symbol of the PEOPLE they claim to represent, and not just the government. Any wonder these tactics backfire?
This is just insane to someone outside of such a culture.

Why would I care if someone burns my nation's flag?
Which then follows, only if I show that I care that they burnt it would the act of burning it have an effect, so by not caring I remove the power of the act.
Over here it mostly gets a :roll: if someone pulls a stunt like that (unless it's someone else's property or presents a hazard).

It's like YoMama stuff, what do we really think about people who take YoMama too seriously.... :roll:

So no, burning a flag does not insult the nation, nor does it insult the people, it only shows that the one doing it is probably an idiot. If you get provoked by idiots doing stupid stuff, then that is not a good thing.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

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Spoonist wrote:This is just insane to someone outside of such a culture.

Why would I care if someone burns my nation's flag?
Which then follows, only if I show that I care that they burnt it would the act of burning it have an effect, so by not caring I remove the power of the act.
Just out of curiousity, what nation do you consider yourself a citizen of?
So no, burning a flag does not insult the nation, nor does it insult the people, it only shows that the one doing it is probably an idiot. If you get provoked by idiots doing stupid stuff, then that is not a good thing.
I think it depends on the nation and the people in question. Canadian and British members, if I were to use your flags as toilet paper, would you consider this a grave insult? Or would you just shrug this off as a "stupid American trick"?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by madd0ct0r »

which flag? the union jack? the St George cross? The welsh Dragon? (which doesn't feature on the union jack, grr), the red hand of ulster?

we have a lot of flags. people would :roll: but not much more.

imagery varies though spoonist - burning the queen would be generally frowned upon in the UK, and especially so in the working class.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

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Does Sidewinder seriously not know that people who care about THE FLAG are, in many countries, the extreme right fringe? In Australia you can bet pretty safely that anyone with a flag on their house or car is a bogan and almost certainly racist.

Flag worship is a great piece of cultural control pressure, but thinking its universal must be the result of lack of experience. For me the joke is that I bet less people would burn the American flag if it didn't make them so hysterical. If you used 'my' 'countries' flag (a pretty expensive thing to my knowledge) as toilet paper, I'm more likely to see this as a victory for local industry than become offended.

But the thread is supposed to be about presentation of message and the importance of strong vision in politics, not educating people about flag psychology. And honestly, I think left-leaning parties are indeed often diffuse in policy and have a very poor success rate at integrating it into a broad and easy to understand vision that resonates with people, instead concentrating on the individual policies or initiatives.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Spoonist »

Sidewinder wrote:Just out of curiousity, what nation do you consider yourself a citizen of?
Sweden.
If you search for it you'll probably find some of the bruha surrounding the muhammed drawings and Lars Vilks pissing muslims off.
It was kinda ironic when they burnt the Ladonian flag though. Ladonia being Lars Vilks art project/micronation. Ladonia's flag is made by boiling the swedish flag in detergent so that the yellow and blue mix into a faded green.
So the artist trying to be provokative and failed to get attention by desecrating the flag, but when the muslims burn it then he gets more attention because people was WTF is that flag?
madd0ct0r wrote:imagery varies though spoonist - burning the queen would be generally frowned upon in the UK, and especially so in the working class.
Brits had punk rockers do a lot of different things to the flag - so they are kinda used to it.
Got a king - wouldn't care.
There might be something nowadays with the heir-princess with her being recently married and getting a kid.
If you burnt images of them + baby then you'd probably get something more than a :roll: mostly because they are cute and show their mutual love & affection.

Don't get me wrong, we got nationalists over here as well who would get upset depending on situation.
Like the muslims burning the flag drew some ire in their circle, but that was mostly becuase it was muslims...
Then we have the situation where the fins won the ice hockey championships and drove over en masse to rub swedish noses, then a lot of people got upset about them burning flags, but less so the actual flag burning than the defeat in the hockey game...
etc
So for example, some occupy people tried to get attention both in Stockholm & Gothenburg by having flash mob flagburning. They didn't even get a reporter from the tabloids to show up.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Irbis »

Sidewinder wrote:I think it depends on the nation and the people in question. Canadian and British members, if I were to use your flags as toilet paper, would you consider this a grave insult? Or would you just shrug this off as a "stupid American trick"?
People in Europe generally don't care about that, save for extreme right fringe. Here, we had a case of a certain satirist doing much worse thing to our flag than burning, and while some outraged people tried to get state to sue him the whole case was eventually dismissed, both his and TV station (which was initially fined ~150.000$ by TV regulation council for showing flag desecration, only to overturn it in appeal) that orchestrated the whole thing.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Spoonist »

Irbis wrote:People in Europe generally don't care about that, save for extreme right fringe.
I'd say that it is probably a southern vs northern europe thing.
Wherever you have machismo culture I'd guess that flagburning and yomama would be provocative.

I wouldn't burn flags or do a yomama's ass so big I had to get a ladder to nail her thing in Turkey for instance.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Mr Bean »

Stark wrote:Does Sidewinder seriously not know that people who care about THE FLAG are, in many countries, the extreme right fringe? In Australia you can bet pretty safely that anyone with a flag on their house or car is a bogan and almost certainly racist.
In America there are American flag stores which make money despite selling nothing but the American flag on T-shirts, greeting cards, lawn ornaments and yes actual flags. Sure they sell other kinds of flags but 90% of the Merc is USA flag related.

Symbolism is just that much stronger here in America, but then in Australia do you spend fourteen years saying the pledge of allegiance five times a week while holding your hand over your heart and facing towards an American flag? Do you open every single sporting even, political event, national cultural event or pretty much anything that gets lots of people together in the public open with the national anthem while facing a flag?

Every American who's gone to public school in America spends a great deal of time learning about and glorifying the American flag.

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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by General Zod »

This entire thing sounds like some sort of propagandist article of a hit piece that was probably written by a Republican than an actual attempt at explaining anything.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Sidewinder »

Junghalli wrote:The point I got from the article is that the left puts too much attention on representing people's "interests" ("you should support this policy because it will materially benefit you and yours" etc.) and too little on presenting people with a compelling moral and social vision ("you should support us because we want a moral society") - something the right is relatively good at, even if you think the vision it presents is terrible. Basically, that the left seems to approach wooing voters as being like marketing, in that you want to present them with the best possible deal to entice them to buy your product, whereas the right seems to approach it as more like missionary work, where you want to offer people a compelling vision and belief-set they will want to convert to, and the latter is more effective than the former.

What I get from that is it suggests the left should do pretty much the opposite of what you're suggesting. Instead of justifying environmentalism on the basis that it will personally benefit you the voter, present it on the basis of being part of a coherent moral and social vision where the natural world has value and the resources and "ecosystem services" it represents should be fairly and sustainably distributed, and wasteful destruction of it to line some fatcat's pocket is evil. Instead of justifying national health care on the basis of being some goody you get from the government and you should support us because we'll give you this great deal, tie it in to a larger moral vision of what a fair and just society should look like.

I'm not sure if this nicely encompasses what the article is trying to say (I get the impression the thesis may be critical of the left's fundamental ideas rather than just its presentation of them), but unless I'm reading it, like, 180 from what it's actually saying Sidewinder's advice seems like an example of exactly what it's suggesting is wrong with the left's approach: heavy focus on appealing to people's pragmatic "interests".
I disagree. Environmentalists often preach about how sinful it is to pollute, but fail to appeal to the working class' sensibilities. "I got a family to feed! How the hell does saving the trees help save my family from bankruptcy?" "The Environmental Protection Agency? It's a government agency, it runs on taxes- money taken from us taxpayers! Aren't we paying enough?" "Censure X Company for polluting? I work for X Company! I got a family to feed, rent to pay! How is punishing X Company supposed to help me, when I'll likely be laid off if X Company has trouble paying the fine?" are concerns I expect to hear if I preach to the working class about the environment's importance.

I rarely hear the environmentalists- by extension, political parties that support them- address these concerns.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by K. A. Pital »

Conservatives are more cautious about infringing on individual liberties (eg of gun owners in the US and small businessmen) in order to protect vulnerable populations (such as children, animals and immigrants).
I'll just leave that here. Whoever wrote this is a shitsack. A fucking shitsack. He's a fucking shitsack, end of story. Interests of gun owners and small businessmen >> those of children and immigrants? Fuck him, fucking fuck him.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Simon_Jester »

Stas Bush wrote:
Conservatives are more cautious about infringing on individual liberties (eg of gun owners in the US and small businessmen) in order to protect vulnerable populations (such as children, animals and immigrants).
I'll just leave that here. Whoever wrote this is a shitsack. A fucking shitsack. He's a fucking shitsack, end of story. Interests of gun owners and small businessmen >> those of children and immigrants? Fuck him, fucking fuck him.
Uh, did he say that? Or are you reading "I think X thinks Y" as "I think Y?"

That's a bad idea. Because real people, almost without exception, don't actually come out and say "the interests of small businessmen are sacred, let the children suffer." Except for low-functioning sociopaths and people who get off on shock value, no one says "let the children suffer." They say "blah blah blah tough standards in schools blah freedom is good for families blah blah" and let a comforting blanket of buzzwords cover up the unpleasant reality of "the policy I am proposing hurts children." They rationalize, they kid themselves, they fool themselves, and they fool others this way. Because in their own brain they're not thinking "it is my aim to promote a policy which harms children."

If you think you have met a man who says "let the children suffer," the odds are very good that you have failed to understand what they're saying.

I'm reminded of a passage from The Man Who Was Thursday:
“The history of the thing might amuse you,” he said. “When first I became one of the New Anarchists I tried all kinds of respectable disguises. I dressed up as a bishop. I read up all about bishops in our anarchist pamphlets, in Superstition the Vampire and Priests of Prey. I certainly understood from them that bishops are strange and terrible old men keeping a cruel secret from mankind. I was misinformed. When on my first appearing in episcopal gaiters in a drawing-room I cried out in a voice of thunder, ‘Down! down! presumptuous human reason!’ they found out in some way that I was not a bishop at all. I was nabbed at once. Then I made up as a millionaire; but I defended Capital with so much intelligence that a fool could see that I was quite poor. Then I tried being a major. Now I am a humanitarian myself, but I have, I hope, enough intellectual breadth to understand the position of those who, like Nietzsche, admire violence—the proud, mad war of Nature and all that, you know. I threw myself into the major. I drew my sword and waved it constantly. I called out ‘Blood!’ abstractedly, like a man calling for wine. I often said, ‘Let the weak perish; it is the Law.’ Well, well, it seems majors don’t do this. I was nabbed again...

Sidewinder wrote:I disagree. Environmentalists often preach about how sinful it is to pollute, but fail to appeal to the working class' sensibilities. "I got a family to feed! How the hell does saving the trees help save my family from bankruptcy?" "The Environmental Protection Agency? It's a government agency, it runs on taxes- money taken from us taxpayers! Aren't we paying enough?" "Censure X Company for polluting? I work for X Company! I got a family to feed, rent to pay! How is punishing X Company supposed to help me, when I'll likely be laid off if X Company has trouble paying the fine?" are concerns I expect to hear if I preach to the working class about the environment's importance.

I rarely hear the environmentalists- by extension, political parties that support them- address these concerns.
What disarms the left in this political environment is that there is no solid, coherent moral framework in American culture from which to criticize Company X. Frankly, that's what's missing: we need a new word for what you call it when you stand up for little private interests (and the public interest they add up to) against big private interests. In other times and places, you could at least start to talk about this in the context of socialism- and even if you never quote a word of Marx, you at least have a place to stand while saying "capital is abusing people, capital is abusing the land" and so on.

What the left in the US would need is to carve out such a place to stand.

General Zod wrote:This entire thing sounds like some sort of propagandist article of a hit piece that was probably written by a Republican than an actual attempt at explaining anything.
To me it has a sort of condescending "I'm smarter than members of both parties put together, let me clearly demonstrate this with my amateur psychoanalysis" approach. What hints there are at political leanings don't suggest anyone all that far to the right of the American center.

Sidewinder wrote:
Spoonist wrote:This is just insane to someone outside of such a culture.
Why would I care if someone burns my nation's flag?
Which then follows, only if I show that I care that they burnt it would the act of burning it have an effect, so by not caring I remove the power of the act.
Just out of curiousity, what nation do you consider yourself a citizen of?
You're asking the wrong question.

Spoonist, I think I'd like to ask you this:

Do you have any symbols? Are there any physical, tangible objects that somehow reflect something important to you? Can you first think of any such thing, and then let us have this conversation about people showing contempt for ideas by attacking the symbols of them?

If the answer to this question is "no," it really doesn't matter what country you're from. The conversation goes in a different direction from there.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by General Zod »

Simon_Jester wrote:
General Zod wrote:This entire thing sounds like some sort of propagandist article of a hit piece that was probably written by a Republican than an actual attempt at explaining anything.
To me it has a sort of condescending "I'm smarter than members of both parties put together, let me clearly demonstrate this with my amateur psychoanalysis" approach. What hints there are at political leanings don't suggest anyone all that far to the right of the American center.
What makes me think that is this quote:
Don't the Democrats stand up for the little guy, and try to redistribute the wealth downwards?
Democrats aren't actually about redistribution of wealth, but that is a popular right-wing talking point. Using all sorts of popular buzzwords are what makes it stick out as right-wing propaganda instead of a legitimate criticism.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

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Infringing on "individual liberties" of gun owners and small businessmen (which are those, anyway - liberty of owning guns irresponsibly or doing business irresponsibly, e.g. torture animals for example or exploit immigrant labour without decent protections? since those are the ones that are even remotely related to children, animals and immigrants) to protect such vulnerable groups as children, animals and immigrants should be the norm rather than the exception.

Not infringing on the "liberty" of exploiting immigrant labour, or exploiting children perhaps, or storing guns casually with children having easy access to them are classified as neglient inaction.

He accuses the left of being quick to act against the "liberties" of small businessmen and gun owners. Neither group seems to fall under the definition of an opressed class or an opressed or threatened minority. Immigrants do. Children are weak and by definition threatened. Animals - same thing.

He's just disgusting with this idea that well-off people like small bourgeois or gun owners have some 'rights' which can't be infringed to protect those who are weak and incapable of defending themselves.
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by madd0ct0r »

i think he's not arguing that - he's arguing the conservatives are better at appealing to people who think that.

i'll need to sit down and go over this all again tomoorw i think
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by K. A. Pital »

Well the left can't appeal to small businessmen saying "we'll let you hire cheap immigrant labour for the sake of your business' survival". It just can't.

Or rather, it can, but in the process it will self-destruct and stop being "the left".
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Re: Why working-class people vote conservative

Post by Sidewinder »

Stas Bush wrote:He accuses the left of being quick to act against the "liberties" of small businessmen and gun owners. Neither group seems to fall under the definition of an opressed class or an opressed or threatened minority.
Small businessmen are often middle-class people, such as those running the Mom-and-Pop store around the corner- at least in the US. (This may be rare in post-Communism Russia, but an example is the guy who sells vegetables he grows in his backyard, at a farmer's market- not just the millionaire who owns a supermarket.)
Immigrants do.
As an immigrant myself, I certainly agree. Unfortunately, xenophobia is an emotion easily appealed to.
Children are weak and by definition threatened. Animals - same thing.

He's just disgusting with this idea that well-off people like small bourgeois or gun owners have some 'rights' which can't be infringed to protect those who are weak and incapable of defending themselves.
What if a criminal breaks into your home, with the intention of kidnapping your child? (It's happened before- see the Lindbergh kidnapping.) What if his intention is to rape your wife? From a gun owners' POV, the weapons are needed to defend their families and themselves- the "right to self-defense" the NRA regularly claims to defend- NOT to oppress and terrorize their neighbors.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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