Or a Lord of Change of Tzeentsch the Chaos God of Hope, Scheming and Magic from the Warhammer Fantasy/40000 universes?
![Image](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080502065703/warhammeronline/images/7/70/Lord_of_Change_concept.jpg)
Moderator: NecronLord
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/AscensionAlkaloid wrote:If you can give me an example of an Ori stepping into the material plane of existence and throwing down I might be able to think about answering that question.
The ancient in Stargate Atlantis' Sactuary destroyed an entire wraith fleet, is that enough?Lord Revan wrote:Granted one of the easiest purely technological ways to defeat a greater daemon is to shoot it enough that it's form in the real world breaks down and it's forced to retreat back into the warp, of course you need insane amount of firepower to do this.
needs more detail to be sure.Themightytom wrote:The ancient in Stargate Atlantis' Sactuary destroyed an entire wraith fleet, is that enough?Lord Revan wrote:Granted one of the easiest purely technological ways to defeat a greater daemon is to shoot it enough that it's form in the real world breaks down and it's forced to retreat back into the warp, of course you need insane amount of firepower to do this.
Note - this only works in some cases, doesn't kill the daemon (so he keeps coming back for more), and sometimes has nasty side-effect of detonating warp energy gathered by daemon, or weakening local barrier dividing materium and warp - causing corruption in anything in the vicinity.Lord Revan wrote:Granted one of the easiest purely technological ways to defeat a greater daemon is to shoot it enough that it's form in the real world breaks down and it's forced to retreat back into the warp, of course you need insane amount of firepower to do this.
The problem is what individuals we're talking about. Let's take a Grey Knight - you need a million psykers, which are themselves one in a million deal, to produce just one. Then, out of thousand Grey Knights, maybe 8-12 are strong enough to battle Greater Daemon. These numbers are pretty much even worse than ones you need to produce ascended being in Stargate universe.NecronLord wrote:There is no known upper limit on the powers of ascended beings, but it includes blasting away fleets and armies "with a thought." (SG1, Maternal Instinct, SGA, "Sanctuary")
The mere fact that we see Tzeentchian greater demons actually fight in battles against mortals strongly suggests they've got nothing on the same level. The ancients can in fact, do these things without actually manifesting in the material world.
The problem is, orbital bombardment doesn't work on daemons. As in, regular daemons, not greater ones. Once Warp is weak enough for them to manifest freely, you need to cut them off from Immaterium somehow, forcing them to run, regular firepower does nothing.In short it's going to be getting hit with multi-megaton lightning bolts while it skitters around trying and failing to find where the hurt is coming from.
That has no relevance. The Imperium cannot produce one ascended being; thus has no individuals of the mental strength required to ascend... An Ori is thus mentally stronger than Kaldor Draigo, and bitch slaps it. Or we could just remember that they're separate settings.Irbis wrote:The problem is what individuals we're talking about. Let's take a Grey Knight - you need a million psykers, which are themselves one in a million deal, to produce just one. Then, out of thousand Grey Knights, maybe 8-12 are strong enough to battle Greater Daemon. These numbers are pretty much even worse than ones you need to produce ascended being in Stargate universe.
Please post a source where a greater demon takes something that can annihilate a starfleet to the face and keeps on trucking. Also remember that we're talking about WHFB too here. Where demon armies can be and are defeated by guys with muskets and cannons.The problem is, orbital bombardment doesn't work on daemons. As in, regular daemons, not greater ones. Once Warp is weak enough for them to manifest freely, you need to cut them off from Immaterium somehow, forcing them to run, regular firepower does nothing.
No, resorting to memes will not produce an answer. How can chaos corrupt something it cannot sense? Something without a soul? Even in 40K, chaos is not magical, in most sources you can just say 'no.' How can a demon fight something it cannot touch? Which can blast it with megaton bolts of firepower every second.That, and the match above is worst possible one. Ascended being might be immune to Chaos diseases (Nurgle), being cut with an axe (Khorne), seduction (Slaanesh), but I doubt he is immune to pure magic (Tzeentch) it has no idea how to defend against. Failing to find? Lords of Change have precognition and supernatural access to knowledge, they have reputation of having everything done against them to turn out 'just as planned' for a reason.
Umm, that is not correct. The Imperium doesn't have Ascended beings because ascension is impossible in the WH 40K universe, not because they don't have the mental strength to do it.NecronLord wrote:That has no relevance. The Imperium cannot produce one ascended being; thus has no individuals of the mental strength required to ascend... An Ori is thus mentally stronger than Kaldor Draigo, and bitch slaps it. Or we could just remember that they're separate settings.
That is the point of my statement. IT. IS. SARCASM.The Imperator wrote:Umm, that is not correct. The Imperium doesn't have Ascended beings because ascension is impossible in the WH 40K universe, not because they don't have the mental strength to do it.NecronLord wrote:That has no relevance. The Imperium cannot produce one ascended being; thus has no individuals of the mental strength required to ascend... An Ori is thus mentally stronger than Kaldor Draigo, and bitch slaps it. Or we could just remember that they're separate settings.
Oh, sorryNecronLord wrote:That is the point of my statement. IT. IS. SARCASM.The Imperator wrote:Umm, that is not correct. The Imperium doesn't have Ascended beings because ascension is impossible in the WH 40K universe, not because they don't have the mental strength to do it.NecronLord wrote:That has no relevance. The Imperium cannot produce one ascended being; thus has no individuals of the mental strength required to ascend... An Ori is thus mentally stronger than Kaldor Draigo, and bitch slaps it. Or we could just remember that they're separate settings.
He is arguing that the Imperium only has a certain number of people who can withstand being near a greater demon and this proves something, because clearly an Ori could not do so... because they're even more one in a million or some shit. He presumes a direct equivalence between the nature of funky powers in the two universes; IE that how hard it is for the Imperium to make a grey knight has some bearing on how powerful an Ori is. It does not.
My reply is that if that's so, then we should also consider that the difficulty of ascension should also have some bearing on judging the Imperium's mental abilities.
Hence why I tell him to remember they're seperate settings; how hard it is for the Imperium to make GKs is irrelevant in this, only if GKs are in any way comparable to Ori.
Only quantifiable measurements can be used to compare things; the difficulty of the Imperium in making a Grey Knight is irrelvant.