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 Post subject: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-01 08:54pm
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This thread is for discussion of Game of Thrones Season 2
It's assumed you have read at least the first two books and have watched the first season of the show.
If you don't want to be spoiled about anything go to the other thread here.


Show is about to start I'm off.




"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-01 10:09pm
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Okay instant reactions
Holy shit that was a great teaser when we get the lead in from Joffery talking about Roberts bastards to every single one of Roberts bastards being murdered from a boy of ten to a babe in arms to Harry the orphan boy and Gendry on a cart in the middle of somewhere.

They changed lots of things about the books, totally re-ordering events but unlike first season where it was jarring this time they nailed it in one go. The Sexposition was to throw us for a loop as we went from Joffery talking about bastards to practicing whores getting their moaning technique right :lol: to... lets murder a babe in arms. Not to mention the burning of the gods, the short scene with Bran and the Maester talking to petitioners and his first wolf dream.

All in all a great first episode of the second series and the obvious added scenes between Robb and Theon (Oh damn that's going to bite him in the ass) and Robb and Cat were well done. These extra scenes are to get the same information across in a new way that's less infodumpy. The except was the Joffery being slapped scene which was totally and utterly great because anytime that actor gets slapped it's so satisfying and second when she understands just how crazy Joff is fast becoming with power.

Also great, the second after the slap dead silence then the re-doubling effort of all the carpenters great moment.




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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-01 10:55pm
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They need to make a Slap Joffrey video game for Wii or XBox.



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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-02 03:39am
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For sure. I still think Tyrion's slap was better, but Cersei's was good too.

1. Cersei was great in this episode. She actually emoted, instead of just having that quizzical expression she had all Season One. I loved the scene with Littlefinger, Joffrey, and finally her orders to have all of Robert's bastards killed (an intense sequence that set up episode 2). She's showing signs of what made Cersei interesting in the books: impulsive. cunning, and arrogant.

2. Speaking of Littlefinger, I liked the scene with Cersei. It was a reminder that for all his scheming and money, he's still just a nobody from an insignificant noble family who can be killed at the Queen's pleasure. The brothel scene reinforced that, when his bribes meant shit all to the City Watch.

3. Ah, Craster's Keep. The scene felt a bit truncated, but there's almost certainly going to be more of that in the next episode.

4. Theon and Robb's interactions were great. Especially since Theon feels more like a decent person, and not the insecure shithead he was in the books.

5. Same goes for Catelyn and Robb - a good scene that revealed a good deal about both, and set up certain events that will occur down the line.

6. Honestly, I didn't really care for the Jaime-Robb conversation. It felt forced, like they needed to show Jaime and had no other way to do it.

7. Nor did I really care for the Stannis scenes, although Dillane looks great as Stannis (he looked like he had a stick up his ass while watching the burning, which is totally Stannis). Melisandre really needs to be more menacing.

8. Fucking Joffrey. Still amazing and psychotic, although he seems more clever than he was in the books. I'm half-surprised he didn't have all the workmen in the Throne Room killed for seeing his mother strike him without consequences.



"You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean that tin is worthless."
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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-02 03:54am
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Shit, the editing window closed on me.

I'm a little sad about losing Theon as the "unpleasant victim" in the series, but this means that his failings and betrayal in this season might actually seem tragic. I think the scene with Ser Rodrik near the end, when he mentions that he had a noose around his neck his entire time at Winterfell, will actually be quite poignant for it.

To expand on what I said about the Stannis sequence, it really needed Melisandre to be more frightening - the scene from the book captures this very well. Hopefully the creepy boat scene with her and Davos will make up for it.

Jon Snow and Mormont had a great conversation in the books about Craster being a "necessary evil". It didn't happen in this episode, but I'm thinking it might happen in the next one (since they won't leave before Sam tries to save Gilly).



"You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean that tin is worthless."
-Jon Snow, A Game of Thrones

"I prefer my history dead. The dead sort is written in ink, the living in blood."
-Rodrik Greyjoy, A Song of Ice and Fire

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-02 07:15am
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Isn't there a bit of a plot hole there with Gendry?

In the book, if I recall correctly, it was implied his boss sent him to the Night's Watch to protect him from the purges. In the series, it seems there's no reason for why he became a recruit, since it happens before the Goldcloaks start scouring the city.

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-02 10:06am
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Bright wrote:
Isn't there a bit of a plot hole there with Gendry?

In the book, if I recall correctly, it was implied his boss sent him to the Night's Watch to protect him from the purges. In the series, it seems there's no reason for why he became a recruit, since it happens before the Goldcloaks start scouring the city.

In the book Ned Stark asks Varys to look after Gendry and Varys does this by getting Gendry out of the city when Robert dies because our Lady of Lannister has a habit of killing off bastards of Robert when possible.




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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-02 10:38am
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Yeah, I remember A Feast For Crows mentioning that Cersei had a pair of twin bastards fathered by Robert in Lannisport killed, along with their mother. She also more or less told Robert that King's Landing wouldn't be a safe place if he brought Mya Stone to court.



"You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean that tin is worthless."
-Jon Snow, A Game of Thrones

"I prefer my history dead. The dead sort is written in ink, the living in blood."
-Rodrik Greyjoy, A Song of Ice and Fire

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-02 10:19pm
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Does anyone know what Joffery is setting up in the throne room? Dragon skulls? I read the books, but I don't remember this part.

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-02 10:53pm
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spaceviking wrote:
Does anyone know what Joffery is setting up in the throne room? Dragon skulls? I read the books, but I don't remember this part.

It's new to the show and I do wonder what he's going to be setting up.




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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-04 06:12pm
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Perhaps an armory style room?

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-04 06:30pm
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Solauren wrote:
Perhaps an armory style room?

It's the throne room and there are plenty of scenes in there in the books and probably the show so I'm guessing he's going go full on what a 14 year old thinks is cool.




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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-04 07:12pm
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I'm guessing heads of his "enemies".



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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-05 12:31am
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In this television version is joffree still 14? I thought he was aged up like everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-05 06:02pm
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He is still behaving like a 14 year old.



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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-05 09:29pm
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spaceviking wrote:
In this television version is joffree still 14? I thought he was aged up like everyone.


15 last season, second season opening was his Name day so 16 now.

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-08 04:21am
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Mr Bean wrote:
If you read the piece you'll notice the author goes on to talk about a lot of what Tolken wrote that was lets be blunt kinda racist and something of a trope of the mean old dark skin evil empire be it mean or elves. However what the pieces fails to mention is any racism so far in GoT.

Now as for Martin and racism there is a case to be made, but not in the spoiler free thread.


Mr Bean: I was wondering what you meant by this because I hear the same complaints yet people can never truly point me to anything except a character POV whenever someone accuses Martin of some sort of discrimination.

Since this is the spoiler thread, would you mind elaborating?

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-08 10:17pm
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Scrib wrote:

Since this is the spoiler thread, would you mind elaborating?

I'd be happy to but first episode 2 reactions

Where to start? How about Pyke!
First off Pyke looks great, Innsmouth would fit right into the real estate here. Not only did we get "Yara" being felt up by Theon but we got to meet his dad and even if that's not who I saw as Balon Greyjoy he nailed Balon's personality even if his looks are not how he looked in my head. Plus Gold or Iron conveys what the Ironborn are all about so well.

Next, Arya and the Nights watch crew
Rogue is not noseless but Bitter looks good, Jaquen comes across well but then we don't really get introduced to the REAL Jaquen until he gets out of that cage after all. Also it's Hotpie and Lommy both of which are well cast particularly Hotpie and Lommy gets in a yielding comment. Gendry has in this episode moved up from his season 1 non-presence to another great actor and he plays off Arya well. I can already look forward to the Arya/Hotpie/Gendry crew we get later in this and next season.

Next the Watch beyond the wall
Well John Snow is blunt and offends Gilly, but forget about him this is all Sam, Gren's and Edd's episode. I love Edd even if it's low humor he's got the deadpan delivery down. "I'm sorry but we were having a serious discussion here" Also the end of the episode was weird with John almost seeing something then getting jumped by Craster who doubled back and caught up with him somehow? Dunno Craster must secretly be a wizard

Kings Landing!
It's nice how Littlefinger is able to tell Ros a nice comforting story and end the story by informing her that she better shape up and get back to fucking because otherwise she won't earn any more and thus be eligible for being sold to some sadomasochistic Lord to do with as he will. Tyrion was great as to be expected and the final scene between the Queen and Tyrion was well done as they got in why she hates him and it's not because he's a dwarf.

Note are we getting any Tywin this season? I'm blanking about Book 2.




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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-08 10:25pm
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Scrib wrote:

Since this is the spoiler thread, would you mind elaborating?

Okay elaboration time

The reason why Martin can be charged with racism to some degree is his description and treatment of Slavers Bay and the Slavers. Not only are they Slavers but they consider puppies to be a delicacy, they dip slave children in honey, blood and wine and make them fight a bear. They literally have old people go at each other with cleavers and poles. Every single inhuman behavior can be found. Let me quote Wiki

Wiki on Slavers Bay wrote:
Slavers Bay

South of the Dothraki Sea is Slaver's Bay, which holds three port city-states called Yunkai, Meereen, and Astapor. The cities were built from the rubble of Old Ghis, an ancient rival of Valyria that was crushed by that nation thousands of years before the events of A Song of Ice and Fire. Present inhabitants of the bay are a mongrel race that speak a bastardized version of the old Ghiscari tongue. The economies of the cities are largely based on slave labor and the slave trade. Treatment of slaves is often harsh, while citizens live in relative luxury. Professional soldiers of all three cities wear outlandish costumes and hairstyles that limit their usefulness in battle. The cities' militaries are highly dependent on additional slave and mercenary armies for the actual fighting. Astapor trains and sells elite eunuch spearmen called Unsullied that are renowned for their discipline and effectiveness. Those Unsullied that have not yet been sold are used to defend the city when the need arises.

Astapor

The wealthiest of the cities, Astapor is the only place in the world where the Unsullied can be purchased. These slave soldiers command a huge investment and earn the most profitable of returns for the Good Masters of Astapor. The city itself is ancient and dilapidated, with massive, crumbling red-brick walls that the Astapori no longer man. The city is dominated by massive brick pyramids that line the waterfront of the bay, and the Plaza of Pride, which serves as an open air slave market, a marshalling area for the Unsullied, and a community gathering place. Even though the city has long passed its glory days, it is still a wealthy and powerful trade hub, with countless slaves, massive fighting pits, and training areas for gladiator and Unsullied slaves.

Yunkai

The smallest of the three cities, Yunkai, like Meereen, does not trade in Unsullied but is known for its fighting pits and its pleasure houses, both of which turn out slaves at a brisk pace. The city is similar to Astapor in architecture except for its smaller size and its use of yellow brick in its buildings instead of red. The slavers of Yunkai are known as the Wise Masters. Because of the city's lack of Unsullied, it relies on a mixed professional and slave army of approximately 4,000 with at least 1,000 mercenaries. Typical for Ghiscari, Yunkai soldiers wear impractical armor and oiled hair teased into enormous shapes, limiting their effectiveness.

Meereen

The largest of the three slaver cities, Meereen has a population equaling that of Astapor and Yunkai combined. The city is constructed with similar architecture to its neighbors, but built in bricks of many colors. Its landscape is dominated by a massive pyramid, named The Great Pyramid, and the Temple of Graces, which is capped by a golden dome. Meereen is unique among the Ghiscari cities in that it is filled with many temples and pyramids. The slavers of Meereen are known as the Great Masters. They field a force of lancers equipped in traditionally extravagant Ghiscari fashion with scales of copper and lances as long as fourteen feet. Its is built on the banks of the river Skahadzhan.


The point is that for a serious made up of believable characters and all sorts of interesting people we get this literal stereotypes, Sauron wish he had people this evil to rule over. This is where the racism charges best bear fruit because of how extremely unlikely such a people are to survive for long as their entire culture depends on the slave trade, the slaves out-number the citizens ten to one and they are casually murdered on a daily basis yet have almost no military of their own. Only Astapor has any kind of significant military force. Someone should have sacked and burned these cities centuries ago if not the population had no died in a mass slave uprising.




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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-08 10:54pm
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Interesting were they went with Stannis and Melisandre. They had strangely close relationship in the books but there never was any particular indication they were fucking other than spending a lot of time alone together. Its also a bit out of character for book Stannis to be doing anything extra-marital.

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-08 11:05pm
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Yeah, it's like they took a shipping fanfic and made it canon. WTF, HBO? Is every actress over the age of consent required to appear naked at least once?

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-08 11:29pm
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Mr Bean wrote:
Note are we getting any Tywin this season? I'm blanking about Book 2.


Yes, when
[Reveal] Spoiler:
he saves Tyrion at Blackwater Bay and takes up the role of the Hand.


Quote:
Interesting were they went with Stannis and Melisandre. They had strangely close relationship in the books but there never was any particular indication they were fucking other than spending a lot of time alone together. Its also a bit out of character for book Stannis to be doing anything extra-marital.


It's pretty heavily implied that that's how Mel made the shadow babies. Remember Davos was all like: "That shadow, it looks like STANNIS!"

Also, I agree with Bean about the relative weakness of the characterisation of the Eastern cities compared to the Westerosi ones, but I don't think it's racism, just laziness. I get the feeling that Westeros was based on Georges understanding of European history, and he doesn't have a similar understanding of Asian/Middle Eastern/ African history.

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-09 01:30am
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It was always fairly heavily implied (IIRC it wasn't outright, but it was remarked the 'shadow' looks like Stannis, and Stannis has odd memories/feels weaker after it happens) that Stannis and Melisandre were getting it on. It seems they've cut out Stannis' wife completely, along with his daughter - but I can't remember them being part of any huge plots so no big loss.

The rest was really good - The Iron Isles in particular looked damn near perfect and the interactions in the Night's Watch camp were good.

Tyrion's parts were good as well, especially his talk with Bronn and him talking to his sister.



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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-09 01:59am
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I finally managed to watch it on HBO GO.


1. That's the Littlefinger we know and hate! This was easily my favorite scene in the entire episode. He starts off so compassionate, so kind . . . and then you see him just slip his way into "creep" territory, as he reminds the whore that he hates having an investment go wrong, and so she'd better shape up. I'm glad that some of Littlefinger's creep-like nature is finally starting to show up in the series - he's easily one of the worst scumbags in the entire series.


2. I'm not sure on the Stannis/Melisandre sex scene (although she's hot). I always liked the book's set-up where the first time we find out that they're fucking is when Stannis watches the Shadowchild be born (which I hope will be creepy as hell in the show, as it was in the book), but this could actually work better. People will think it's just another relationship forged from fanaticism, need, and pent-up sexual lust, at which point we'll get the Shadowchild and everyone who hasn't read the book will think, "Holy shit, what the fuck was that?"


3. What a weird cliff-hanger with Jon Snow. How is that going to end? Will Mormont finally give Snow the talk about why they need Craster, and how Craster sacrifices his male children to the "crueler gods".


4. Tyrion's scenes were appropriately good, particularly with Janos Slynt.


5. Not much to say about Daenerys, although I wonder if they'll find the ruins or simply have one of her bloodriders return with Quaithe, Xaro, and Pyat Pree. My guess is on the latter, since it saves money and also makes Daenerys all that more joyful about "salvation" . . . until it turns out that Qarth is just another dead-end.


6. Not much to say about Arya, either. It was mostly a development scene, designed to set-up their capture in the next couple of episodes.


7. Theon was good, and I loved the scene at the dock where he finds out his lack of welcome. I particularly liked how the dockman asks him what he's carrying, and Theon incredulously lists their cargo and himself.


8. Yara's attractive and has some of the personality of Asha, but I really hope we get to see some more hints of her deadliness (plus her sharp-tongue and wit).


9. No Bran, Catelyn, or Robb in this episode. That's a good thing, since the show has such a large cast and group of plotlines that we can't fit them all in a single episode. If the show only had more episodes, they could do only a few of the storylines in each episode at a time.



"You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean that tin is worthless."
-Jon Snow, A Game of Thrones

"I prefer my history dead. The dead sort is written in ink, the living in blood."
-Rodrik Greyjoy, A Song of Ice and Fire

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 Post subject: Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS*** PostPosted: 2012-04-09 03:10am
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I'm not a huge fan of the casting of Gendry. I know the actor is not that old for playing a young man, but he looks way to old.

The set of pyke was well done, though I think the book did a better job of capturing Theon's confusion in his homecoming.

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