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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 09:08pm
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Batman wrote:
Based on-what, exactly? Especially as the Mk II was actually damaged by dinky 20 mm rounds?


Did the Mark II really take that much damage from the F-22s? Obviously Tony didn't like getting hit with them, and he spiraled around a bit, but the suit didn't really lose any functionality or flight capability. Even after the 105/120mm tank round knocked him clear out of the sky, the suit still maintained most or all of it's combat capability.



And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 09:41pm
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The damage was absolutely superficial. I Brought this up only because I have yet to see any reasoning for why the Mk V from the trailer would be any less resilient than the Iron Man I/II suits, given it's not all that visually different.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 09:45pm
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Alkaloid wrote:
It wasn't really visual, it was a feeling thing. The first movie, every time he took a step in the suit, there was this clank, and it didn't sound tinny or lightweight, it sounded like someone had dropped a dumbell. Or in two, the MK 2 and 3 suits went through the hammeroids like they were mad of wet paper, but the scene where Stark and Rhodes are going at it there was a sense of real wight to it, they didn't deflect or dodge they just slugged it out, and when they took a hit there was a sense it was a big hit, it just didn't really matter because the suit could take it. There was the suitcase suit that did look a bit lighter, but that was ok because it was supposed to.

Watching the trailer i just get the feeling that if this suit got hit it would actually be damaged.
It could be a context thing- a lot of that 'feeling' would come from the sound effects, and that's affected by how you view the thing. The suit may sound heavier and clunkier in a movie theater than it does over, say, laptop speakers.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:09pm
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Nah, I think it's the way it moves. Look at that clip and the way the suits have momentum, they need to use the thrusters to stop them moving backwards, or dropping to one knee will put a hole in the floor, where in the trailer Stark cuts the thrusters a foot above the ground and just drops lightly down, there isn't that sense of mass.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:20pm
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Dropping to one knee as a result of being punched by a guy in a power suit resulted in a hole in the floor (and given that was Tony's apartment, I doubt that floor was armour grade material). And Tony routinely does the drop to the ground in armour-no evidence the thing weighs tons in both Iron Man movies. In fact there's exactly zero evidence those things weigh tons.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:36pm
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It's a "look and feel" thing, don't take that "tons" thing too literally.

The point is that they come across as hefty metal suits that weigh considerably more than a man, and are much stronger and tougher than anything other than 'armor-grade materials.' They don't come across as being a man in a tin-plate costume. And I get it. If I had to estimate what those suits weigh- I dunno, compared to the way Tony swings that barbell around, I'd have to guess several hundred pounds. Not so much that they'd casually destroy structural materials any more than a really fat guy would, but enough that they can handle very large weights without being overbalanced.

500-1000 pounds, maybe? Hard to say, obviously.

But again, that's not what he's talking about. It's that in Iron Man I and II, they made a point out of showing that the suits are heavy, tough metal constructs that can give and take a lot of punishment. The guy inside them may be lightning-fast if he's practiced enough, but that's just a bonus on top of the strength and resistance of the armor.

It's reasonable to complain if that aesthetic is lost in Avengers, and the sound and visual effects of suit combat are toned down until it looks more like a man wearing thirty pounds of tin plate than like a cannonproof walking statue.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:38pm
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No, theres no evidence, it's a stylistic thing. When I look at that scene, those suits look fucking heavy. The damage they do to the apartment while taking none at all themselves is immense. They don't move with finesse, it's big sweeping blows, plowing through objects, tearing themselves out of walls, shrugging off everything the other guy can throw at you and just hitting back harder. Unstoppable force immovable object sort of situation. Compared to the trailer, where it's all dodging and not taking the hits at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:40pm
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Given that he has fucking particle accelerators in his basement, the floor is probably pretty reinforced.

That said, would you guys just shut up and bask in the AWESOME please.

There is an AVENGERS MOVIE JUST MOTHS AWAY. All the lead up to it has been fucking great and it has all the best elements of all the previous movies AND it is actually using something resembling the ACTUAL ORIGIN STORY of how the Avengers assembled.

Sometimes it just doesn't matter how much the fucking MkIII weighs... ya dig?

Bask gentlemen... BASK. :D



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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:48pm
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Are they going for Classic or Ultimate marvel on this one? Nick Fury is obviously based on the ultimate version, but previous movies have been a blend of both.



And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:49pm
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If we assume that Iron Man is a spherical mass of iron a man-sized object completely composed of iron, we can set an upper limit to his mass. I estimate that his volume couldn't be more than about 150L (or about 39 U.S. gallons). (As an aside, a person of this volume would weigh about 150kg, or over 330 lbs.) A 150L object made from iron would weigh about 1180kg, or 2600lbs. Of course, there is a squishy Robert Downey Jr. inside that iron, with a volume of approximately 70L, so we need to reduce the total accordingly. (1180 - 70*(7.87-1))= roughly 700kg, or a little over 1500 lbs.

The armour isn't made from iron, though. Here's a line from the movie, speaking to JARVIS:

Tony Stark wrote:
Have it reconfigure the shell metals. Use the gold titanium alloy from the seraphim tactical satellite. That should ensure a fuselage integrity while while maintaining power-to-weight ratio.


Again, if we assume that gold and titanium the only constituents of this alloy, and further that they are in approximately equal proportions, then we have an alloy which has a density which is actually higher than iron: (19.32+4.506)/2=11.913, or roughly 50% more dense than iron. So for an upper limit, we're at 1500*1.5=2250 lbs (or 1050kg). (I'm not a materials guy, so I'm sure that this is a naive, simplistic analysis. Best I can do on short notice.)

In any case, there's no way that Iron Man can weigh "tons". Unless by "tons" we mean "more than one ton", because that extra 50 pounds isn't much to hang your hat on.

Edit: Sorry, Hav, I had to calculate before I could bask.



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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:53pm
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Havok's right about the basking.

I don't think it's a problem- if Iron Man's dodging stuff, it's probably nasty stuff that blows up buildings, which you'd want to dodge if you could no matter how tough you were.

That said, I used to work in a building with a particle accelerator in the basement. That floor wobbled like a dishtowel in that little quake last summer. Nothing you wouldn't see in a normal low-rise office building.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-06 10:57pm
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I don't really care what it weighs Hav, I just want Iron Man to keep looking like what happens if the Terminator fucked a battle tank instead of a red and gold ninja with laser hands. Beyond that, totally basking.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-07 11:42am
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I feel Tony is going to be in more of a support role. All the stuff I've seen from the city streets fights have Cap and Thor and Widow, no Iron Man anywhere. In the old Marvel stuff from the 60's and 70's, Tony Stark was one of the founding forces of shield but he was always behind the scenes running things, rarely on the front lines.



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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-07 03:01pm
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If Iron Man was being played by anyone but RDJ, I would agree with this. But as it is, Iron Man is sort of the flagship character of the Marvel movie franchise- he's the one that people who aren't comics fans are most likely to like and enjoy listening to. So I think we'll see a bit more of him than we would otherwise, because every extra minute of Downey's screen time probably translates into a noticeable uptick in their box office revenues.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-07 07:16pm
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Haha. Man, the more I see of this movie the more totally out of place Hawkeye and Black Widow look.

Should be a decent flick, though.



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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-07 07:33pm
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I still don't get the fragile suit thing-as S_J mentioned, what he was dodging might have been stuff the suit couldn't take, and besides, dodging is generally the smart thing to do anyway if you can do it, but as we've already established this is a 'feeling' thing I have no more problem with it.
Also, my 'must see in theatre if at all possible' list just grew by one.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-07 08:52pm
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Erik von Nein wrote:
Haha. Man, the more I see of this movie the more totally out of place Hawkeye and Black Widow look.
Which is a key component to Hawkeye's character. Black Widow, not so much, but she has always accepted her role as an intelligence agent.



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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-07 08:58pm
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Batman wrote:
Dropping to one knee as a result of being punched by a guy in a power suit resulted in a hole in the floor (and given that was Tony's apartment, I doubt that floor was armour grade material). And Tony routinely does the drop to the ground in armour-no evidence the thing weighs tons in both Iron Man movies. In fact there's exactly zero evidence those things weigh tons.


When he test-flies the Mark II for the first time, and comes back to land, he cuts thrust power from hovering...and immediately falls through two floors and smashes a car's frame in. That may not be "tons," but it it's certainly heavy. Impossible to quantify without knowing the strength of the two floors in question.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-07 09:10pm
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Bugger. I completely forgot about that.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-07 10:52pm
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You have to understand that in any movie or series involving team-ups between different styles of hero, there have to be concessions to keeping everything doable by staffs that might not have worked on the other movies. Not only is everyone's action truncated to more digestible chunks, some of the detail is lost for the sake speeding up production. The people in charge don't care as much if something doesn't quite match a previous film because the action is more frequent and dense it will appeal to someone else regardless.

So don't be offended if your SoD is forever damaged beyond repair like poor Optimus.



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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-08 12:40am
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Havok wrote:
Erik von Nein wrote:
Haha. Man, the more I see of this movie the more totally out of place Hawkeye and Black Widow look.
Which is a key component to Hawkeye's character. Black Widow, not so much, but she has always accepted her role as an intelligence agent.
Yes. I suspect that her accepted role will be that of a coordinator, the one who knows what the SHIELD forces are doing and so on. Hawkeye, dunno what he'll be doing aside from being "SHIELD's man on the spot" in a way that Cap or Iron Man could never be.

VF5SS wrote:
You have to understand that in any movie or series involving team-ups between different styles of hero, there have to be concessions to keeping everything doable by staffs that might not have worked on the other movies. Not only is everyone's action truncated to more digestible chunks, some of the detail is lost for the sake speeding up production. The people in charge don't care as much if something doesn't quite match a previous film because the action is more frequent and dense it will appeal to someone else regardless.
True, but hopefully they'll preserve the feel, since there's no obvious reason not to leave creating the CGI for Iron Man up to more or less the team that was already doing it before.

They can achieve a lot of the desired feel just with sound effects- big solid clangs when things hit the armor and bounce off, or when the armor hits things. That's not so labor intensive. And if anything, not having Stark dodge everything like a ninja might actually be easier to animate...

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-08 02:17am
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There has been nothing established in any of the movies that puts any of the heroes really out of the power range of the others nor their styles.

I mean yeah, the Hulk can smash helicopters and planes, but not tanks. He does the destruction with his hands and throwing stuff.

We aren't really sure what Thor can do to military hardware as we have only seen him bash through ice giants. he also just bashes things.

Iron Man can blow up tanks and the like, but he also isn't just flying through them. He is also damn fucking nimble in the suit or did you guys miss him weaving in and out of the freeway supports and the like evading the Hammer Drones. Again, he can just bash things, but he also has his repulsers and whatever little doohickey missiles and such to do his damage.

Cap is just a really strong man.

It shouldn't be hard to keep everything in line with what we have already seen in the last 4 movies.



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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-08 02:06pm
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Hm. Yeah.

Remember that scene in Iron Man 2 where Black Widow and Happy are breaking into that place, and Happy has this big knock-down drag-out brawl with one guy while she's effortlessly beating up the entire rest of the security force?

She may not be in quite the same league as Cap as a fighter, but I think she'll be able to contribute usefully to any situation Cap isn't badly out of place in.

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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-08 06:38pm
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She was still beating up regular dudes. Security guards at that. I mean, yeah lets assume that Hammer hired ultra bad ass ex military types... on the other hand, he skimps on quality on his weapons, why wouldn't he skimp on security as well.

Widow also wasn't trying to go toe to toe like Happy was. Unless she got some super soldier serum of her own, which is possible, she is just a chick with extensive combat training and fancy wrist shooters.

She is nowhere near Caps level. That said, she certainly can hold her own in almost any situation.



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It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
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 Post subject: Re: Avengers Trailer PostPosted: 2012-02-08 07:32pm
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In any combat situation that is actually a challenge to Thor,Tony,or Dr Banner, Cap and the Widow absolutely are out of their league, and always have been. That doesn't mean they can't be useful in a fight, or have one of their very own while the Big Guys are distracted by trying to bash in each others heads. The 'small fry' actually saving the day by deactivating the doomsday machine of the day while the Powers Guys essentially achieve little more than billions in collateral damage is far from unheard of in superhero comics.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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