Ezri Dax

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Ezri Dax

Postby Havok » 2012-02-06 09:28pm

Thoughts on this character?

Did DS9 make the correct decision in making the new Dax host a woman, or do you feel there would have been better story telling done with a male host?

Should they have kept the Dax persona around at all?
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Stofsk » 2012-02-06 09:42pm

Honestly, I think part of the reason I disliked Ezri is that she replaced Jadzia, who I always liked even though I feel that they didn't take advantage of the character nearly enough. If she had been a new character not tied to Dax I might have liked her more.

Though now that you mention it, the idea of bringing back Dax in a male host when the last one was a woman and married to a klingon does strike me as having great storytelling possibilities.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby FaxModem1 » 2012-02-06 11:44pm

Honestly, when I saw Ezri, I thought she was a younger version of Jadzia, both had dark hair, blue eyes, and just seemed really similar in the looks department. I would have preferred a male host, but that would have limited their romance options.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Stofsk » 2012-02-07 12:04am

I would have preferred a male host, but that would have limited their romance options.

Why do you think that? They did an episode in season four about this subject and it was with lesbians. They could have done the same thing in season seven but in a long term way with Worf and a male Dax.

That could have been a great way to continue the theme set by the previous episode too, in that relationships trill make often don't survive the transition to a different host, and it would have been cool to see that challenged.

Instead they made her a chick, in the same department (science) as Jadzia, only more medical related (counseling as opposed to science officer), and so she hooked up with Julian. Lame.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Uraniun235 » 2012-02-07 12:17am

What is Dax? Or rather, what should Dax be? In the early part of the show it seemed like it was more about "Jadzia's contributed to the personality but the overall lifeform sees itself as some 300+ year old thing that's had several different bodies" with the symbiont being playing a very powerful role in the overall personality, but later on it seemed like it was just "welp she's got some memories and latent feelings" especially when Ezri came around. If Ezri was really as young and unprepared as we're told, it seems like the result of that shouldn't be "lol hey guys i'm a goofy klutz trying to come to grips with these unexpected feelings" so much as "this is pure Dax b/c the host isn't yet able to assert herself". Maybe there'd be sudden, major personality shifts; one minute you're talking to Kurzon, the next you're talking to that serial killer or whatever he was.


If Jadzia has to die, I'd have Dukat kill the Dax symbiont. This does two things: it's a less objectionable way to allow the "teary final farewell" before she dies (b/c seriously how the fuck is she conscious yet unsaveable in the middle of a fucking Star Trek 24th century starbase sickbay? at least the show's established that taking Dax out of Jadzia would slowly yet inevitably kill her), and it's a much more potent hammerblow for Sisko. You could write it so that Sisko tries to get in his farewell to Kurzon, only to have to realize that Kurzon's already gone and he's not going to come back as a sexy woman (or at all) again. His mentor, the confidant Sisko has leaned on for much of the series, is gone. That's a much more powerful loss, in my view, and it's also a more heinous act on Dukat's part because he didn't just kill one person, he annihilated however many lifetimes of experience and memory that were bottled up in that little slug.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Alyeska » 2012-02-07 12:18am

Ezri was not science. Blue Uniform, but not science. She was a counselor. A rather junior one at that.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Stofsk » 2012-02-07 12:42am

Blue uniform is Science Aly.

Three departments: command, operations, science. Counseling and medical falls under science.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Anguirus » 2012-02-07 01:17am

I liked Ezri.

I think the producers did what they could with a very tough circumstance. They did not want to lose Jadzia, at all, in any way, but that actor was walking out the door. They lucked out in that the nature of the character let them keep part of her/it around in the show. They didn't WANT to kill Dax itself. Keeping that turns a group of characters pining and mourning into a group of characters dealing with a shocking and disturbing change in one of their own.

As for making Dax a man again, that wouldn't do because then there would be ONE woman in the ensemble, and the supporting cast was also a sausage-fest. Plus, I think they really liked having the woman character who was once alpha-male Curzon, and male Dax I think could have slipped into feeling like Curzon Part 2.

So within those restrictions, they tried to build Ezri into the anti-Jadzia. And I think it works. She gets to replace Nog and Jake as the young person shocked by the war; she gets to address the fact that this bunch isn't exactly mentally healthy anymore, she comes full circle with Ben as his mentee, after being first mentor and then peer. And she did really interesting things to Worf, Quark, and Bashir in the final year, which is good because it dredged up some of the show's past and revitalized characters who were running out of stuff to do in the normal group dynamic.

Granted, her starring episodes were disappointing, but considering the circumstances, at the end of the day it's a wonder that I liked, instead of just tolerated, the character. Her hooking up with Bashir really added something to the finale IMO. Jadzia could never have loved Bashir, despite what Ezri claimed, but Ezri could because Bashir spent 7 years maturing while she had actually become younger in personality.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Uraniun235 » 2012-02-07 04:11am

It's been awhile since I've seen seventh season DS9 but I've heard Ezri described a couple of times as being a terrible counselor/therapist. Is that at all accurate?
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Havok » 2012-02-07 04:32am

Depends on how you look at it.

She isn't Troy that cheats with her telepathy, but has all the answers all the time.

Like, she does a good job helping Garek, but she does it by also helping herself.

In her run she doesn't ever quite get a grip on her new situation, but she cleverly uses it to her advantage using her own problems to solve others people's problems.

She also knows when to back off, like she did when Nog was coping with his fear after losing his leg. She let him go through the process he needed to go through.

She has an interesting run.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Crazedwraith » 2012-02-07 04:58am

Anguirus wrote:Granted, her starring episodes were disappointing, but considering the circumstances, at the end of the day it's a wonder that I liked, instead of just tolerated, the character. Her hooking up with Bashir really added something to the finale IMO. Jadzia could never have loved Bashir, despite what Ezri claimed, but Ezri could because Bashir spent 7 years maturing while she had actually become younger in personality.


Best not read the re-launch novels. There she quickly decides Julian is not the guy for her. Transfers to command and becomes Captain of one of the Federation's most advanced ships in no time at all. (TBF I've read the first couple of books so I don't know exactly how well this plot developments are done. But they certainly sound retarded.)


As to Ezri I really like the concept of her. Instead of the ultra-competent Jadzia who effortless commands the knowledge of centuries. We have someone unprepared for the joining and the memories mess her up. There a lot of scope there for character growth and an arc.

Unfortunately I don't think the execution was that swell. And really the fact that she turned up in the final season is a big part of that. Not much time to do stuff with her when you've got the overarching storyline of the entire run to tie up is there.

But even so those episode she had didn't really deal with that ideas that well. And rightly or wrongly I seem to recall that most of the subplots she was involved in, were basically everyone who used to fancy jadzia fancies her, and which one will she end up with?
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Grumman » 2012-02-07 06:13am

Uraniun235 wrote:It's been awhile since I've seen seventh season DS9 but I've heard Ezri described a couple of times as being a terrible counselor/therapist. Is that at all accurate?

While it was as a criminal psychologist and not a therapist, I think you'd have to question the competency of any therapist who thinks listening to the serial killer in your head - while holding a gun - is a good idea.

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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2012-02-07 08:09am

I actually kind of liked that episode, because while the idea of having the memories/personality of a serial killer in your head is incredibly disturbing, and it is a bad idea to listen to them, I felt that episode gave her more depth and perhaps helped establish her as someone who could hold her own in a group of warriors and spies like Sisko, Worf, Kira, and Garrak.

The idea of a male host having to deal with left over feelings with Worf is somewhat interesting, but I don't think there'd have been much chance of Worf being interested. Sorry, I just don't see Worf in a pseudo-gay relationship. ;)

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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Tsyroc » 2012-02-07 09:58am

Didn't Ezri's family own some sort of mine that was technically outside the Federation or something like that? I remember that being one of those interesting episodes where DS9 showed people who were from a species normally associated with the Federation who didn't like it and lived/worked outside of it. It went well with some of Garak and Quark's musings about the Federation.

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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Anguirus » 2012-02-07 12:47pm

Best not read the re-launch novels.


Darn. I was pondering getting into those.

Command seems like a much more natural destiny for Jadzia (who really stopped being a science officer when the Dominion plot kicked in), so I hope they weren't just trying to shove Ezri into the Jadzia box.

And yeah, Ezri is the worst kind of "TV psychologist" but hey, they tried.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Thanas » 2012-02-07 05:03pm

Anguirus wrote:
Best not read the re-launch novels.


Darn. I was pondering getting into those.


The first six or seven novels are pretty good. The rest makes me glad they are non-canon.

On topic - I liked Ezri much more than Jadzia as I found her much less annoying.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Darth Fanboy » 2012-02-07 05:10pm

Havok wrote:Thoughts on this character?

Did DS9 make the correct decision in making the new Dax host a woman, or do you feel there would have been better story telling done with a male host?

Should they have kept the Dax persona around at all?


It was intended as a more serious thread but my first impulse was to post "Sure, i'd fuck her." giggity.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby FaxModem1 » 2012-02-07 05:26pm

Stofsk wrote:
I would have preferred a male host, but that would have limited their romance options.

Why do you think that? They did an episode in season four about this subject and it was with lesbians. They could have done the same thing in season seven but in a long term way with Worf and a male Dax.

That could have been a great way to continue the theme set by the previous episode too, in that relationships trill make often don't survive the transition to a different host, and it would have been cool to see that challenged.

Instead they made her a chick, in the same department (science) as Jadzia, only more medical related (counseling as opposed to science officer), and so she hooked up with Julian. Lame.


Because Trek writers were too fearful of having a gay male story line. If, hey, they had the balls to have a guy remember being Worf's wife, I would have loved to have seen it, but can you imagine them having the male Ezri waking up after sleeping with Worf? It would have made Trek controversial again. And Berman would have never been okay with that.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Darth Fanboy » 2012-02-07 05:27pm

Ghetto edit to my prior post because I lose concentration easily and whatnots and posted when I thought I was saving a draft.

As previously stated, I really liked that they brought her back as a female since there was only one other female lead and Rom's wife, thought good looking, wasn't exactly getting a lot of the screen time. It also had what I felt was a good effect of keeping the female character but also breaking up the relationship with Worf and having that "oh fuck characters can die" vibe without actually losing Dax, who was way more interesting to me in terms of backstory than most everyone else as well.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Darth Fanboy » 2012-02-07 05:35pm

FaxModem1 wrote:Because Trek writers were too fearful of having a gay male story line. If, hey, they had the balls to have a guy remember being Worf's wife, I would have loved to have seen it, but can you imagine them having the male Ezri waking up after sleeping with Worf? It would have made Trek controversial again. And Berman would have never been okay with that.


A few things.

-The idea of a symbiont causing a gender reversal for the trill in a relationship was done in TNG already, with the Trill that Crusher was involved with going from male to female. IT could be they didn't want to repeat that.

-I have nothing against the Dax character becoming male provided another female character gets added on for significant screen time, and with the extensive cast DS9 already had, replacing a character and going through all of that storytelling plus adding another character while this entire Dominion War plot was taking over and the show was clearly moving towards an end. I think you can give the writers a pass on this without accusing them of being "fearful."

-If you did to a male Trill taking over for Dax, I don't think you get as many of those WTF moments with Worf. Sure there would be some but the reason Worf looked at Ezri the way he did and remembered Jadzia was because she was a female with all of her memories. I think a male Trill, assuming Worf is 100% hetero, will not get the same emotional responses and Worf, for whatever reason will be able to separate the new Dax from Jadzia. Now there would still be room for a moment or two and perhaps even an episode to dwell on this, but it wouldn't have what I think are long lasting implications like it did for Ezri.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Alyeska » 2012-02-07 07:18pm

Stofsk wrote:Blue uniform is Science Aly.

Three departments: command, operations, science. Counseling and medical falls under science.


Department, not occupation. Having the same shirt didn't even remotely make her the same type as Jadzia.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Stofsk » 2012-02-07 10:16pm

Dude, counselling would require training in psychology, and that's a science. Sure, it's not a hard science like the ones Jadzia was educated in, but it's still a science. When they were coming up with an idea to replace Jadzia they chose a new character who was from the same department albeit a different occupation. It's not as remote a connection as you seem to think it is, because all I'm saying is that the writers had full control and had the opportunity to come up with a new character, and in the end they kept the whole 'Dax is a blueshirt girl'.

If they truly wanted to differentiate Ezri from Jadzia they could have made her a security or engineer goldshirt, or shuttle pilot or something. Why did they even have to keep her in starfleet?
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Darth Fanboy » 2012-02-08 02:58am

Stofsk wrote:If they truly wanted to differentiate Ezri from Jadzia they could have made her a security or engineer goldshirt, or shuttle pilot or something. Why did they even have to keep her in starfleet?


Probably nitpicks but worth asking. If she were a goldshirt in engineering wouldn't that overlap with O'Brien too much? Shuttle ilot I would have liked especially considering how much time the Defiant was going to be used. I can't think of too many non-starfleet roles they could have given her since the setting is a Starfleet-operated space station.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Havok » 2012-02-08 04:31am

Well it's like they said, they didn't want to lose Dax, but the actress was leaving. It is lucky for them it was her and she had a built in "resurrection" and not say Visitor/Kira.
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Re: Ezri Dax

Postby Terralthra » 2012-02-08 05:13am

I liked Ezri for the aforementioned reason: Dax was a competent person, prepared for joining, with 7 lifetimes of memories which she could bring up and use effectively. There wasn't a whole lot of room for growth, and I think the whole "falling in love with Worf and becoming a Trillgon" was really kind of a huge regression for her.

Ezri was awesome because she wasn't a totally mature and competent awesome officer. She didn't want to be joined, she wasn't prepared for 8 lifetimes of memories, she was really just a girl suddenly thrust into a situation not in her control. She had a lot of potential to grow into an interesting character in interesting ways, and we got to see it happen. Sadly, there was only a single season to explore that growth.


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