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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 01:54am
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S.L.Acker wrote:
These people were totally willing to swim out and go poaching, but were too morally upstanding to steal a fucking boat so sharks wouldn't eat them? Hell even if they were aid to Africa ad poor, a boat would have cost them less than one weeks catch and made them safer as well as allowed them to haul more back thus making more money each subsequent week. That same boat would also give them a means to fish for food and take tourists to nice places thus providing many secondary sources of income which would allow them to eventually upgrade to bigger better boats. Clearly these people weren't thinking rationally and above all were going about getting money for their family in a piss poor way, there is no downside to getting some form of boat and using some income for a real fishing licence so they don't have to worry about the boat giving them away to the authorities.


Assuming that they could invest ALL their money from this into a boat and that they were getting paid the market value for the harvested abalone rather than offloading them to a middleman for a percentage cut or consuming them themselves. Because we all know that desperate, poor people are able to use all that spare money they have...

What about stealing a boat? Maybe these guys have morals? WOW POACHERS WITH MORALS! I mean, isn't every shoplifter a spree killer in the making? Maybe they felt that poaching abalone was acceptable, but depriving someone else of their means of living or property wasn't. Maybe they realised that fishermen have something of a reputation worldwide and that stealing a fishing boat is a good way to, at best, get the shit beaten out of you - and that's before you get arrested for theft. Maybe they figured that poaching was less impact on others and less risk to themselves than burglary, car theft or other illicit means. Guys who swim 2 hours EACH WAY to get to work probably have a fairly solid work ethic and would love to have a legit job...

Not thinking rationally? Fuck you. And fuck you too AD.

Quote:
A lot of people do dangerous things for shits and giggles. Base jumpers, people who ride motor cycles, people who keep venomous snakes as pets etc etc etc. Some people like risk, but take precautions to mitigate it. These people knowingly accept the risk, and accept that they earn what they get when that risk bites them in the ass. Ask anyone who has ever been tagged by their pet cobra. The first thing they say is "I fucked up, and earned that." I know this, because I know a good number of these people.


Yeah, because I know lots of people who are below the poverty line and indulge in extreme sports and rare pets. They knowingly take risks because they're bored with their white collar existence, not because if they don't take a risk, their family will go hungry.



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 01:54am
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Alyrium Denryle wrote:

I had not extended the logic this far. Yes. i think you are correct.


:roll:



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:17am
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weemadando wrote:
S.L.Acker wrote:
These people were totally willing to swim out and go poaching, but were too morally upstanding to steal a fucking boat so sharks wouldn't eat them? Hell even if they were aid to Africa ad poor, a boat would have cost them less than one weeks catch and made them safer as well as allowed them to haul more back thus making more money each subsequent week. That same boat would also give them a means to fish for food and take tourists to nice places thus providing many secondary sources of income which would allow them to eventually upgrade to bigger better boats. Clearly these people weren't thinking rationally and above all were going about getting money for their family in a piss poor way, there is no downside to getting some form of boat and using some income for a real fishing licence so they don't have to worry about the boat giving them away to the authorities.


Assuming that they could invest ALL their money from this into a boat and that they were getting paid the market value for the harvested abalone rather than offloading them to a middleman for a percentage cut or consuming them themselves. Because we all know that desperate, poor people are able to use all that spare money they have...

What about stealing a boat? Maybe these guys have morals? WOW POACHERS WITH MORALS! I mean, isn't every shoplifter a spree killer in the making? Maybe they felt that poaching abalone was acceptable, but depriving someone else of their means of living or property wasn't. Maybe they realised that fishermen have something of a reputation worldwide and that stealing a fishing boat is a good way to, at best, get the shit beaten out of you - and that's before you get arrested for theft. Maybe they figured that poaching was less impact on others and less risk to themselves than burglary, car theft or other illicit means. Guys who swim 2 hours EACH WAY to get to work probably have a fairly solid work ethic and would love to have a legit job...

Not thinking rationally? Fuck you. And fuck you too AD.


Even at a tiny fraction of the real cost they'd be able to buy a small boat with an outboard, even if there are more people poaching than would normally fit it gives them a chance to rest from the long swim. Even a simple tow rope system they would be less tired and arrive on location faster. All of this combined means a larger mean catch so they can earn more money for equal work. If not a boat even an inflatable raft and some paddles would beat swimming, and those can be had for under 30 bucks. No excuse for not having some way to get out of the water.

As for stealing a boat, maybe they have reasons against it. However any reasons against doing so are as much speculation as saying that they must be dirt poor in the first place as opposed to simply cheap ass poachers who were dumb as shit.

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:28am
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I love it. There are basically two different viewpoints here, thanks to lack of facts in the article and probability that the facts will likely never be known to us: Those that assume they are guilty until proven innocent, and those that assume they are innocent until proven guilty. I, of course, fall into that latter, youthfully idealistic camp.

The main difference between their point of view and ours? Ours doesn't involve preemptively laughing at peoples' deaths.

Everything else being equal, I'm kind of glad I'm not a pompous, morally deficit blowhard handing out dictates on the criminal scum from my relatively comfortable, first-world throne.



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:30am
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I'd assumed they weren't using a boat to avoid being detected (by authorities)

Even the poorest of the poorest fishermen round here still have a tarred coracle



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:32am
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Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
I love it. There are basically two different viewpoints here, thanks to lack of facts in the article and probability that the facts will likely never be known to us: Those that assume they are guilty until proven innocent, and those that assume they are innocent until proven guilty. I, of course, fall into that latter, youthfully idealistic camp.

The main difference between their point of view and ours? Ours doesn't involve preemptively laughing at peoples' deaths.

Everything else being equal, I'm kind of glad I'm not a pompous, morally deficit blowhard handing out dictates on the criminal scum from my relatively comfortable, first-world throne.


Fuck off, I haven't expressed a single thing about how this scenario makes me feel. I'm just pointing out logical reasons why people might laugh at them.

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:34am
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S.L.Acker wrote:
Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
I love it. There are basically two different viewpoints here, thanks to lack of facts in the article and probability that the facts will likely never be known to us: Those that assume they are guilty until proven innocent, and those that assume they are innocent until proven guilty. I, of course, fall into that latter, youthfully idealistic camp.

The main difference between their point of view and ours? Ours doesn't involve preemptively laughing at peoples' deaths.

Everything else being equal, I'm kind of glad I'm not a pompous, morally deficit blowhard handing out dictates on the criminal scum from my relatively comfortable, first-world throne.


Fuck off, I haven't expressed a single thing about how this scenario makes me feel. I'm just pointing out logical reasons why people might laugh at them.


I knew I couldn't be the only one! I knew that somewhere out there, there had to be someone else who saw Oni say "I am referring to S.L.Acker"!

They may call us foolish but we both know the truth! It is they who are the blind ones!



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:41am
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Zablorg wrote:
I knew I couldn't be the only one! I knew that somewhere out there, there had to be someone else who saw Oni say "I am referring to S.L.Acker"!

They may call us foolish but we both know the truth! It is they who are the blind ones!


Really don't give a shit. Now do you have something to add, or are you just here to attack me?

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:44am
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S.L.Acker wrote:
Zablorg wrote:
I knew I couldn't be the only one! I knew that somewhere out there, there had to be someone else who saw Oni say "I am referring to S.L.Acker"!

They may call us foolish but we both know the truth! It is they who are the blind ones!


Really don't give a shit. Now do you have something to add, or are you just here to attack me?


Hang on man, you're confusing me. You don't give a shit that you were wrong?

That's not a very rational approach to take, son.



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:45am
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Awww, paranoid much, sweety? Guilty conscious gnawing you from the inside? As Zablorg implied, I wasn't even referring to you (I was actually thinking more along the lines of Dorkwing and Herpy). But since you're squirming so adorably, I suppose I can include you in the morally deficit blowhard camp, if only for entertainment value.



Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:48am
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Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
Awww, paranoid much, sweety? Guilty conscious gnawing you from the inside? As Zablorg implied, I wasn't even referring to you (I was actually thinking more along the lines of Dorkwing and Herpy). But since you're squirming so adorably, I suppose I can include you in the morally deficit blowhard camp, if only for entertainment value.


Paranoid, hardly. It's just fun watching the white horse brigade try to play high and mighty on a board where we mock morons. If you can't see that, even if he was dirt poor, the guy that got sharked was a dumbass, maybe you should try thinking harder on the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:49am
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Zablorg wrote:
Hang on man, you're confusing me. You don't give a shit that you were wrong?

That's not a very rational approach to take, son.


Lol, in this post we see Zablorg demonstrate that he doesn't read context very well.

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:52am
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S.L.Acker wrote:
Zablorg wrote:
Hang on man, you're confusing me. You don't give a shit that you were wrong?

That's not a very rational approach to take, son.


Lol, in this post we see Zablorg demonstrate that he doesn't read context very well.


I'm just trying to cover all the angles, here.

I wouldn't presume to understand the motivations and circumstances of a poster I know nothing about, after all.



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:52am
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Yeah, because I know lots of people who are below the poverty line and indulge in extreme sports and rare pets. They knowingly take risks because they're bored with their white collar existence, not because if they don't take a risk, their family will go hungry.


Did you... bother... to actually read? I was listing general ways in which people deal with risk, why they take them, and to what degree a person is responsible when a risk catches up to them. I did neglect to mention people who take risks out of economic necessity but mitigate them as much as possible because they are not relevant, as they are behaving rationally and thus not germain to the discussion.

You will note that in all other cases, I listed to what degree I thought that situation was likely in this case. You will note I did not for the one you complained about... because I did not think it remotely possible. But please. Be my guest. Burn your precious man of straw!

Here, I will even help

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Quote:
Assuming that they could invest ALL their money from this into a boat and that they were getting paid the market value for the harvested abalone rather than offloading them to a middleman for a percentage cut or consuming them themselves. Because we all know that desperate, poor people are able to use all that spare money they have...


Yes, ignore the argument that they may in fact not be that desperately poor. Ignore the fact that one can buy an inflatable raft for as little as oh... lets see... that is around 8 Rand to the Dollar, looking at classified ads... OK. that is three four man rubber boats for about 3000 Rand. Split among 12 men, 31.25 USD. Lets assume that they are getting 10% of the market value per lb of abalone meat. Oh what the fuck am I doing? Why fucking bother arguing this point with you when I can pull up news stories about how amazingly lucrative abalone poaching is in S. Africa.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/world ... alone.html

The article is a wee long, but here are some tasty bits.

Quote:
“We just take a small amount, maybe five kilos — just enough to survive,” Mr. Crouse said sorrowfully. “Just enough for the wife and kids.”


Five kilos a trip eh? At 25 pounds a kilo

Quote:
Standing on the beach in his wetsuit, beside a beat-up sedan with more rust than Joe Namath’s throwing arm, he paints a convincing portrait of destitution. Or he does until Inspector Sandor Nagy of the South African Police Service observes that his real car is a hopped-up Volkswagen with a top-of-the-line engine. The rust bucket, the inspector says, is a throwaway, a painless loss should the police seize it.

“They all say that,” Inspector Nagy said of Mr. Crouse’s protestations. “But they all drive BMWs. Look at the cars they’re driving and the life they’re living. I don’t think it’s for the family.”


They all fucking say it...

http://www.servamus.co.za/index.php?opt ... view&id=72

Quote:
Abalone poaching is an extremely lucrative business, and a large abalone can sell for hundreds of rands. According to Johan Erasmus of MCM, divers usually get paid R280 - R300/kg of shucked abalone, which is usually only three sized abalone. In just one night of successful poaching, divers could earn hundreds of thousands of rands. Buyers pay up to R600 for one 500 g can of processed meat. Poachers with oxygen tanks can stay below the water longer and can take out up to 40 kg each in one shift.


Yeah, what was that about dirt poor? Go fuck yourself.



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 02:54am
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slacker wrote:
Fuck off, I haven't expressed a single thing about how this scenario makes me feel. I'm just pointing out logical reasons why people might laugh at them.


...

slacker wrote:
It's just fun watching the white horse brigade try to play high and mighty on a board where we mock morons.


Concession...

...

... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccepted!

It's cute watching you try to justify your worldview though. Please, toots, tell us more about these 'obvious' things that only a few morally deficit blowhards can see.

Oh, and I want you to think long and hard about the implications of calling Mr. fucking Coffee a white knight. Really long and hard.



Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 03:02am
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Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
slacker wrote:
Fuck off, I haven't expressed a single thing about how this scenario makes me feel. I'm just pointing out logical reasons why people might laugh at them.


...

slacker wrote:
It's just fun watching the white horse brigade try to play high and mighty on a board where we mock morons.


Concession...

...

... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccepted!

It's cute watching you try to justify your worldview though. Please, toots, tell us more about these 'obvious' things that only a few morally deficit blowhards can see.

Oh, and I want you to think long and hard about the implications of calling Mr. fucking Coffee a white knight. Really long and hard.


From what I've seen Coffee just likes to play big dog and cause shit, he chose to come into this thread just to get his kicks.

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 03:55am
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Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Go fuck yourself.

I'd give more of a shit about what you think if it hadn't taken you 4 pages to look at the situation in a manner other than "laugh at man being killed".



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 04:00am
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weemadando wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Go fuck yourself.

I'd give more of a shit about what you think if it hadn't taken you 4 pages to look at the situation in a manner other than "laugh at man being killed".


Gee, and here I was thinking I was talking about how "all poachers say they are poor, it is a self-serving lie, the guy was simply negligent, and schadenfreude is not morally blameworthy in this case"

I then, a little bit ago, got sick and tired of your absolutely baseless claims of desperate poverty that precludes buying a boat and thus precludes avoiding negligence. So, I proved you wrong (and myself correct) with empirical data.

Concede that the man was negligent, and that his friend was a liar. I have met my burden of proof. Schadenfreude over well deserved suffering (implied in the word) is just a matter of personal taste, and not really a matter that is up for debate.



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 04:12am
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S.L.Acker wrote:
From what I've seen Coffee just likes to play big dog and cause shit, he chose to come into this thread just to get his kicks.


There's a good boy! You keep poisoning that well, I'm sure someone will drink from it someday!



Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 04:19am
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Boat-schmoat, not that many people get eaten by sharks anyway. This dude just hit the Shit Lottery. A million people hit the Shit Lottery every day, plenty of them are stupid, and most of them don't go out in as epic a fashion as this. So while I'm not laughing at this the way I would some guy putting a firehose up his ass, I'm not getting emo over the conversation either.

Y'all are acting like a bunch of straight-up bitches.

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 04:22am
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Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
S.L.Acker wrote:
From what I've seen Coffee just likes to play big dog and cause shit, he chose to come into this thread just to get his kicks.


There's a good boy! You keep poisoning that well, I'm sure someone will drink from it someday!


And the now established fact that I am right? I wont argue with you that yes, I am a bitter misanthrope who derives a perhaps twisted pleasure in watching stupid people get what they earn. The rightness or wrongness of that is a matter of taste. However, your claims that:

Quote:
I'm glad you're in a perfect position to judge them. I mean, I'm sure they never once thought about making a boat, and possibly came to the conclusion that, oh, they're too dirt fucking poor to afford even that, or maybe that as a group of twelve, it doesn't make economic sense to build a boat or boats large enough to haul all of them when they can do the job without, or maybe because they live in a dirt-poor, crime-ridden shithole, building a boat is just an invitation to get it stolen, or perhaps having a boat makes them and their illegal activities more visible to the authorities.


Because um... abalone poaching is revoltingly lucrative for the poachers, even within organized crime syndicates, and the police cannot actually catch them most of the time in boats...

Quote:
Boat-schmoat, not that many people get eaten by sharks anyway.


Most swimmers dont do an injured/retarded seal impression at shark-stalked seal colonies. :P



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 04:25am
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WTF? Is OKD Coffee's whore? Caffiene-man don't need the support, he's got this. Ya got this, right? Abalone harvesting in shark-infested waters can't be any more dangerous than riding a motorcycle on urban streets and I can still laugh at other riders who prang.

MY BODY, MY CHOICE!



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 04:32am
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Count Chocula wrote:
WTF? Is OKD Coffee's whore? Caffiene-man don't need the support, he's got this. Ya got this, right? Abalone harvesting in shark-infested waters can't be any more dangerous than riding a motorcycle on urban streets and I can still laugh at other riders who prang.

MY BODY, MY CHOICE!


Trauma docs call them donor cycles for a reason... :angelic:

In fact, a friend of mine who works as an ER tech calls his bike a donor cycle...



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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 04:42am
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BTDT. The German Shep that ran in front of me can't say the same. Since I was a good sport in the ER a day after the accident (I didn't know at 21 that massive skin loss should be treated like a burn oops) I got Betadyne instead of iodine. No stings, lots of mummy wraps, and I had a newborn's skin on 20% of my body! Good times.

OT, I'm laughing. Nautical bootlegger gets mauled to death by a shark! Moonshiner gets killed in the hollers by a bear! See all the NSFW footage at 11.



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"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777

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 Post subject: Re: South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed PostPosted: 2012-01-12 06:58am
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I was gonna say something, but DudeGuyMang summed up my point.



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