All we have is their assertion that they were doing this to provide money to feed their families, Mike. How about you come up with evidence that says these specific men were doing otherwise. Better yet, how about you answer the above questions about if you'd do the same thing if you were in there shoes and your family was starving. Go take a look at Rebecca and the boys before you answer that.

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Goddammit, now I'm forced to say in public that I agree with Mr. Coffee. - Mike Wong
I never would have thought I would wholeheartedly agree with Coffee... - fgalkin
GALE ForceFlooring: For a good lay, call...

Oh for fuck's sake, every poor person says that they need to feed their families. They say that in America too. It doesn't mean they're actually literally starving.

And cool it with the condescending bullshit. How fucking stupid do you think I am, that I would not understand what "starving" means unless you tell me to imagine it happening to my own family? Pull your head out of your ass.

Are you familiar with the economics and methods of the abalone industry, legal or otherwise? Because if that guy didn't have a boat and was free diving to get them, this is subsistence level stuff, whatever you can fit into a catch bag and still swim with. And it's hard fucking work. I've done it.

And the folks who do it in an AT ALL professional way have MONEY, because abalone sells like crazy at high per kg prices. Which means they're well equipped with boats and hookah rigs and crews. But in South Africa, it's illegal, there's no recreational or professional permits. It's purely black market with most production going to (you guessed it) Asia. Turns out that there's an international black market trade in abalone often in exchange for drug precursors out of China.

This guy must have been a criminal mastermind, dealing with multinational syndicates on shellfish for drugs deals. Or more likely, he's a poor, exploited immigrant worker who died while trying to make ends meet.

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What is Project Zohar?

You could say the same thing about almost all of the people working in the illicit drug trade, excepting the people who sit at the top and rake in the cash. Why don't we see people pouring out their sympathy on drug dealers who get killed?

And you saying they aren't literally starving doesn't mean they aren't, Mike. Again I'll ask you if your boys were saying "we're hungry" would you do what it takes to provide for them. Yes or fucking no?



Nothing condescending about it. Would you or would you not do what you had to do to provide for your family?



I don't know, Mike. Have you ever been poor yourself? Have you ever gone hungry? Would you do what it takes to prevent your children from undergoing the same.

Answer all that and then ask if the OP is still "Funny".

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Goddammit, now I'm forced to say in public that I agree with Mr. Coffee. - Mike Wong
I never would have thought I would wholeheartedly agree with Coffee... - fgalkin
GALE ForceFlooring: For a good lay, call...

Oh right, I forgot the "I don't have to prove my assumption if you can't prove it's NOT true" technique, beloved by fuckwits everywhere.


If they were literally starving? Sure. But you haven't established that, and only a small fraction of South Africa's poor can possibly be abalone poachers. The rest of South Africa's poor people somehow survive without being abalone poachers.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if laughing at people who died by their own stupidity is funny or not; it's still in bad taste.

Do people on this forum also post joyously when a 13yo school dropout is shot over a corner?

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What is Project Zohar?

Mike, all we have to go on is the article in the OP and whatever evidence it provides. But of course I'm the fuckwit for defending them based on what evidence we actually have, and you're totally not a raging fucking asshole for demanding evidence that we don't have and demanding that everyone applies evidence you just made up.



Is it really that hard for you to answer a direct fucking question, Mike? Here, I'll try it again...

If your family was starving, would you or would you not do everything you could to provide for them, yes or no? Is the qeustion not clearly worded enough or are the answers requiring you to think of something you'd rather not?

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Goddammit, now I'm forced to say in public that I agree with Mr. Coffee. - Mike Wong
I never would have thought I would wholeheartedly agree with Coffee... - fgalkin
GALE ForceFlooring: For a good lay, call...

Apparently there's an exception for children that AD made up.

Drug dealers have cars and playstations and multiple houses and the money that paid for it is destroying lives

These guys couldn't even afford to a leaky boat with a 6hp outboard

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lol, opsec doesn't apply to fanfiction. -Aaron

PRFYNAFBTFC
CAPTAIN OF MFS SAMMY HAGAR

Did you do it one day a week and expecting it to provide your family with its sole income? Because that is what is being implicitly asserted by the "Oh that poor starving poor person" crowd.



Not true. They lifted the restrictions last year. There are now permits. Additionally, most non-commercial harvesting is recreational, or by members of criminal gangs and crime syndicates. So, do we have any evidence other than the self-serving story of known poachers who were collecting without permits to suggest it was anything but these practices?



Who goes out once a week? What can reasonably be inferred from the once a week info?

A) Recreational abalone diving. Thus, while it may supplement income, it is not the only source
B) The profit from the sale of a day's catch is sufficient to provide for his family's needs, and thus he has no need to go out more often. And can probably afford a small dingy to make the trip without looking like a meal on flippers.

What evidence do you have that the man is a poor migrant worker who is being exploited. Correct me if I am wrong, but exploited migrants tend to be worked a bit harder than one dive a week.



I am pretty sure Mike would not go whaling in the canadian arctic without cold weather gear or a gun, cover himself in whale blood, and sleep in the open in polar bear country. Which is the equivalent of what this guy was doing.

That area is a tourist magnet. There are a lot of ways people living near tourist beaches make money.

Also: See above. Why the fuck are you buying a self-serving story that taken in context, makes no god damn sense?



Maybe if it was clear that the person was desperately poor, i might be more sympathetic. As it stands though, there is no evidence but the self-serving word of a poacher. Mike and I are not the ones making unfounded assumptions here.



And the ability to look things up. There is Zero evidence that this guy was poaching for subsistence, other than the same words every single poacher who has ever gotten caught uses as a shield, irrespective of their circumstances: "I am trying to put food on the table".

Why on earth should we believe it, when it is simply not consistent with the other evidence the OP provides, such as their dive frequency. Most subsistence fishermen rise with the sun, go out in their little boats, or go down to the beach with their nets, and fish until sundown. They do this five or six days a week. That is not what this guy was doing. Reality is not consistent with his friend's story, or your assumptions about his socio-economic status.



And when, ever, have I been happy or joyful over the death of a child? Or expressed glee at tragic things like someone dying in an industrial accident, killing themselves, or otherwise expressed joy at the death of any person who was not doing something terminally stupid, or massively unethical?

I am a misanthrope with no patience for fools, but that is different from sociopath.



Again: That interpretation is only consistent with a cherry picked set of facts.

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GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Herpetology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences

There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Alyrium, shut your goddamn mouth before you sound even stupider than you already do. We already know you think human life is less worthy than snakes, so please shut your sociopath ass the fuck up already. If we wanted to hear from some asshole that think snakes and frogs are worth more than people we'd fucking ask you.

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Goddammit, now I'm forced to say in public that I agree with Mr. Coffee. - Mike Wong
I never would have thought I would wholeheartedly agree with Coffee... - fgalkin
GALE ForceFlooring: For a good lay, call...

AD, how about we go back to your own fucking post?


well fuck, don't let me cherry pick facts or anything.

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What is Project Zohar?

There are two pieces of information in that set of sentences that are relevant. I have bolded them for convenience. The other bit, in italics, is irrelevant, as it can be said of every potentially dangerous profession on the planet, from logging to crab fishing. When someone is negligent in those professions and kills themselves, we dont generally start crying and winging.

Every poacher on earth says that, regardless of their socio-economic status, or other options. It is also true of every person who works for a living. That work, whatever it might be, is done to put food on the table. There is no indication that abolone diving is the sole or even primary source of income. In fact, the other bit of bolded information contraindicates that proposition.

But then you go ahead and ignore the other bit of information, despite having it pointed out to you.

A subsistence fishermen who relies on abalone diving as the sole source of income either goes out more than once a week, or that single day's catch can meet his needs, making him something other than dirt poor. It indicates either recreational diving that supplements income, or a second job. Both of which contraindicate the proposition that the guy is more impoverished than subsistence fishermen in other areas of the world. But of course, don't let me lecture you on the use of logic, or anything.

That said, that the guy is a poacher is not what fills me with glee. I have little sympathy, but it does not fill me with glee either. Glee would require I harbor ill will, which is properly reserved for those creating the demand for abalone and other endangered wildlife.

What fills me with joy is when someone's incompetence catches up with them. Here, let me quote the OP for you



The two are no different. I dont give a damn if carpentry is someone's sole source of income. If they are negligent around dangerous things and have no respect for what that thing will do to them, they have earned what happens. That is what this guy did. He did not set aside money for a while until he could afford a boat (if he was in fact poor, something that has not been established in this particular incident, in a country where recreational abolone diving has been common for a long time). There is no evidence that he had no ability to afford one a priori. There is no evidence that this group was anything but negligent, given where they were and what they were doing.

Thus, there is no reason for me to feel any emotion but Schadenfreude, and perhaps a bit of sadness for the family unfortunate enough to have a dumb-fuck for a breadwinner.



I am sorry Mr. Coffee, you seem to be mistaking me for someone who respects you, and actually cares what you have to say. You also seem to mistake yourself for someone with an accurate understanding of what I think when it comes to environmental issues. When have I ever said that if it comes down to a single snake, or single human, that the snake ought win? Oh, that is right. I have not. What I have said is that there are alternatives to killing said animals when they are in someone's garage. Talk to Chardok. I actually drove 5 hours down to his place in attempt to find a rattlesnake nest I thought might be near his house and relocate the animals so that no living creature had to be injured. But of course, you appear to have some sort of twisted vendetta. Dont worry, I wont make a big deal out of it. I am sure if a mod thinks you are violating board rules they will chastise you appropriately.



Naturally. However, dont you think that if you were going to take a dangerous second job, you would do everything you could to make sure you risked as little as possible in said job? Save up for better safety equipment, that sort of thing? A reasonably intelligent person would not swim to a seal colony in a bay famous for its great white sharks without a way to get out of the water. Not with the constant warnings by the local government and advisories on how to avoid being munched.

It is no different than getting drunk around industrial machinery, or being a sherpa who guides people through a Himalayan mountain pass but forgets his cold weather gear. It is negligence. And so long as said negligence only kills the negligent person... well... I feel perfectly comfortable chuckling a little.

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GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Herpetology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences

There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

AD, swimming 2 hours to reach a fishing ground 3 miles offshore in shark infested waters is clearly something that people would do for shits n giggles right? Not because it was the only option they could see to provide for their families. And I bet all that sweet cash they made was going into their boat funds and not into feeding their families as they fucking say in the article.

Maybe you've spent too long comfortable in a place where the greatest adversity you face is debate on this intellectual crucible of a board, but nothing in that article says anything other than desperation to me.

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What is Project Zohar?

A lot of people do dangerous things for shits and giggles. Base jumpers, people who ride motor cycles, people who keep venomous snakes as pets etc etc etc. Some people like risk, but take precautions to mitigate it. These people knowingly accept the risk, and accept that they earn what they get when that risk bites them in the ass. Ask anyone who has ever been tagged by their pet cobra. The first thing they say is "I fucked up, and earned that." I know this, because I know a good number of these people.

Yet others know there is a risk and think "that only happens to other people", and lo and behold, it happens to them. These people earn what they get. This could be the case, in this instance. Personally, I think this is the most likely, because when confronted with risks, most people think this way. It is the reason people do not wear seat belts...

Other people are induced to take risks by greed, and either do not think the matter through sufficiently, or intentionally cut corners to increase profit margins. In this case, they earn what they get. This could also be the case, in this instance.

Other people are forced into a risk by circumstance, and said circumstance prevents them from mitigating the risk. It is possible, but I disagree with you on the likelihood that this is the case in this instance. If proven wrong, I will feel guilty.

Yet others are forced to take a risk due to coercion. What I think about whether or not a person is responsible for the consequences should be obvious to everyone but Flagg or Mr. Coffee.

Some people are ignorant of a risk, or incapable of processing it. Like children. They are not responsible, and thus do not earn what they get.



No.. no... I grew up poor (relatively speaking), for the first ten years in an abusive household, and spent three years in daily fear of being assaulted brutally by my peers. I have the chipped teeth to prove it. I am reasonably comfortable now and have worked hard to get here, but I do remember what it is like to wonder if I would have running water or electricity, or even a roof over my head.

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GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Herpetology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences

There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

These people were totally willing to swim out and go poaching, but were too morally upstanding to steal a fucking boat so sharks wouldn't eat them? Hell even if they were aid to Africa ad poor, a boat would have cost them less than one weeks catch and made them safer as well as allowed them to haul more back thus making more money each subsequent week. That same boat would also give them a means to fish for food and take tourists to nice places thus providing many secondary sources of income which would allow them to eventually upgrade to bigger better boats. Clearly these people weren't thinking rationally and above all were going about getting money for their family in a piss poor way, there is no downside to getting some form of boat and using some income for a real fishing licence so they don't have to worry about the boat giving them away to the authorities.

I remember this time a guy was jaywalking hurrying to get to work and he got run over by a car. I was like "HAHA YOU DID SOMETHING STUPID, THEREFORE YOU HAVE NO VALUE!" and jacked off on his corpse. Hur hur.

There's a threshold of funniness where laughing at a death no longer makes you an asshole, and it hasn't been met here for me and obviously for some other people. Opinions vary.

There is definitely a spectrum. For me this is a little titter of laughter, or an amused smirk. No person has zero value, but god damn A) the death is... impressive and B) brought about by someone's own stupidity.

Someone trying to have sex with a raccoon and having their dangly bits ripped off his the cause of super-villain laughter.




I had not extended the logic this far. Yes. i think you are correct.

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GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Herpetology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences

There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Assuming that they could invest ALL their money from this into a boat and that they were getting paid the market value for the harvested abalone rather than offloading them to a middleman for a percentage cut or consuming them themselves. Because we all know that desperate, poor people are able to use all that spare money they have...

What about stealing a boat? Maybe these guys have morals? WOW POACHERS WITH MORALS! I mean, isn't every shoplifter a spree killer in the making? Maybe they felt that poaching abalone was acceptable, but depriving someone else of their means of living or property wasn't. Maybe they realised that fishermen have something of a reputation worldwide and that stealing a fishing boat is a good way to, at best, get the shit beaten out of you - and that's before you get arrested for theft. Maybe they figured that poaching was less impact on others and less risk to themselves than burglary, car theft or other illicit means. Guys who swim 2 hours EACH WAY to get to work probably have a fairly solid work ethic and would love to have a legit job...

Not thinking rationally? Fuck you. And fuck you too AD.



Yeah, because I know lots of people who are below the poverty line and indulge in extreme sports and rare pets. They knowingly take risks because they're bored with their white collar existence, not because if they don't take a risk, their family will go hungry.

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What is Project Zohar?

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What is Project Zohar?

Even at a tiny fraction of the real cost they'd be able to buy a small boat with an outboard, even if there are more people poaching than would normally fit it gives them a chance to rest from the long swim. Even a simple tow rope system they would be less tired and arrive on location faster. All of this combined means a larger mean catch so they can earn more money for equal work. If not a boat even an inflatable raft and some paddles would beat swimming, and those can be had for under 30 bucks. No excuse for not having some way to get out of the water.

As for stealing a boat, maybe they have reasons against it. However any reasons against doing so are as much speculation as saying that they must be dirt poor in the first place as opposed to simply cheap ass poachers who were dumb as shit.

I love it. There are basically two different viewpoints here, thanks to lack of facts in the article and probability that the facts will likely never be known to us: Those that assume they are guilty until proven innocent, and those that assume they are innocent until proven guilty. I, of course, fall into that latter, youthfully idealistic camp.

The main difference between their point of view and ours? Ours doesn't involve preemptively laughing at peoples' deaths.

Everything else being equal, I'm kind of glad I'm not a pompous, morally deficit blowhard handing out dictates on the criminal scum from my relatively comfortable, first-world throne.

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Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

I'd assumed they weren't using a boat to avoid being detected (by authorities)

Even the poorest of the poorest fishermen round here still have a tarred coracle

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"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Market forces are a good servant but a poor master." - Zaune