Destructionator XIII wrote:This situation is less like US and Europe today than it is the iron curtain and Berlin wall of twenty years ago.
Most places in the Empire don't need to wait in breadlines and are free to travel so your comparison doesn't work in the slightest. The average citizen likely feels the same about the Empire as the average American feels about the US; they don't always like it, but they don't care enough to do anything. Half of the people won't even turn out to vote let alone embrace a new way of living from some place on the other side of a wormhole...
Cesario wrote:I'm looking, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I'm seeing a lot of people (including yourself) who've noticed the better quality of life, and doing some agitating for changes along those lines. You don't need mass uprisings to make progress.
How much is actually changing? You show me real changes in US policy to match the way things work in countries you consider nicer. Then look at how long that nation has been better for and see how slowly things change.
Cesario wrote:You're not getting that this is about domestic policy, not military.
A none secure Utopia isn't a Utopia. If I need to worry that ever few years a Borg cube, or planet trashing alien might show up I'm not in a Utopia.
Cesario wrote:Quite frankly, I was more interested to see if there was anything along the same pattern, given the major thematic differences between the two universes. Wars isn't exactly written for utopianism.
So you're not going to even prove that the majority of world in the UFP are living in a state of bliss. You're going to take examples of the way things are on major worlds as shown from the perspective of starfleet officers and put it against a source where the views are mainly from the viewpoint of rebels. How many worlds have needed evacuation? How many failed colonies are there? How many planets on the edge of the neutral zone live in constant fear from the cold war with the Klingons and Romulans?
Cesario wrote:Wealthy doesn't mean much on its own, and being well defended is somewhat beside the point.
Ignore the quote about the quality of life that I also included...
Cesario wrote:Holographic entertainment, you say?
You say that as if you assume that Trek has better.
Cesario wrote:I'd like to hear more. Being at the edge of the galaxy leaves some question as to whether it is even a part of the evil galactic empire at all, but maybe it's got something close to the quality of life we're discussing here. We'll need more information to be sure, since the description is a tad bit vague.
News flash moron, most of these articles are stubs with very little to go on. Yet it's still more than we have about worlds that aren't Earth or Vulcan in the UFP.
Cesario wrote:How do the townies view it?
I can't say, we don't get any more info.
Cesario wrote:You mean that bloodsport from the Phantom Menice?
So racing is now a blood sport because of a few cheaters involved in a race on a mob controlled world?
Cesario wrote:Say what you will about abandoning currency-based economics, but no reported depressions on earth after they made that change.
What is the state of the average member world of the UFP?
Cesario wrote:Wait, those were the best you could find out of 130 entries?
I started at the beginning of an alphabetically sorted list and had mostly stub articles to go from. It's not like we have a CIA world factbook entry for each minor world...
Cesario wrote:I'm no sure any of them made it up to that standard just from your description. What're the schools like? How's the weather? What do people with no money experience on these planets?
I'm going to hold you to your own standards then. Prove that every single sentient being in the UFP's territory lives in what they would describe as a Utopia. Tell me about how the average Joe lives on worlds major worlds that aren't Earth or Vulcan. How about on less major worlds?
Cesario wrote:Pretty nice isn't what we were discussing in our little wager.
It works well enough when we know so little about the majority of places in the UFP and what we do see is from the rose tinted view of Federation officers.
Cesario wrote:You want to know about Andoria?
No, I want to know about all the minor worlds the ones that don't get major screen time. The ones that are off the beaten path and are mentioned as part of a characters back story and then forgotten. I looked through about half of the worlds starting with the letter A and found 6 worlds that would keep your average person very happy and more that are pretty nice. Now you show me all the details for Trek that you keep asking me about.
Cesario wrote:Given how random moisture farmers in the ass end of nowhere were pissed enough at the Empire's policies to take up arms even before their families were murdered, I should think that percentage might be a bit higher than you might imagine.
I expect that you will prove this statement by doing some actual research. There are going to be a few thousand entries on wookiepedia to sort through so you'd best get started quickly.
Cesario wrote:Zero. Can't have been certain doom if it was averted.
Take it from the point of view of the average person who doesn't know that the Enterprise is about to pull some technobable out of its ass and save them. How many people died before the crew of the Enterprise had their adventure in the past and brought back the whales? Would you say that living through that would make life more or less ideal for all involved?