Sexism in Disney & MLP portrayals

[Bakustra]

That realism is ultimately secondary, and where we choose to hold to it and where to depart from it says a lot.

[Thanas]

That realism is ultimately secondary, and where we choose to hold to it and where to depart from it says a lot.

I don't really think it is a negative though, like in the case of Mulan I view it more as somebody breaking boundaries rather than being constrained by them. I guess there always is a way to interpret things differently.

[Ford Prefect]

I'll highlight here that the transformation sequence for Mulan is a song whose title is "I'll Make a Man Out of You" and includes the line "Did they send me daughters/When I asked for sons?". The message isn't that Mulan can display this independence on her own, it's only after she gains virtues that are inherently male that she becomes able to fight the Hun.

That's what I was trying to explain in our last thread, but couldn't actually phrase. There's a real emphasis on 'woman making it in the man's world' in a lot of supposedly gender equal stuff, but really the aim is the elimination of the 'man's world' in the first place.

[Lord Zentei]

^ Insofar as the point of gender equality is that women should be able to enter roles that are normally reserved for men, then it hardly seems inappropriate that she gains independence by asserting herself as being capable of male roles. Given the context of the story, she could hardly have gone to battle in the first place without hiding her gender. At least it wouldn't have made sense for her to be able to do that, and if she could have, then the chauvinistic society for her to rebel against would have been less radically so.

That's another part of the problem. Men are held to cardboard cut-out ideals of masculinity and manliness, and women are held to how they can conform to image. Problems abound, but I'd still say that men are at least able to express large degrees of independent agency that is inherently denied to women.

It seems to me that if the men are cardboard cut outs and the women are able to express individuality, then the stories are not as sexist as you might think at first glance. In any case, it makes sense that women should be the ones to rebel against the gender image given that their gender roles are the more restrictive.

Incidentally, why is this thread in Testing?

[Zablorg]

I offer you only this wisdom:

if it wasn't in Testing, we wouldn't have this thread.

[Lusankya]

I feel that this blog is interesting to read regarding the effect that movies can have on children.

Here's the blog outline:

I'm a psychotherapist with training in play therapy. I spent my first years out of graduate school working with sexually abused kids, observing their play, and guiding them toward recovery. As the child healed, their play reflected more typical themes of play of a child their age, whether 2 or 12. When younger children are in therapy, play is used to as the mode of communication because it reflects the child's world, their understanding of the universe. Watch a child play for 20 minutes and you will learn more about him or her than through 20 minutes of asking them questions.

I noticed some things in my daughter's play that were red flags to me, such as:


1. Rigidity in Role: Putting on a Disney Princess Dress, my often running/jumping child became stiff and kept her hands at her side stating, "Princesses don't run or jump."

2. Helpless Heroine: With her hands at her face, she would look around in dismay then go sit on our step stating, "Princesses have to wait for the Prince."

3. Rapunzel Syndrome: I regularly cut my daughter's hair, until around the time I was observing this play. When we talked about trimming her locks, she burst into tears, "Princesses don't have short hair!"

4. Dress Drama: Refusing to wear anything but dresses because "princesses don't wear pants." Also? "Princesses don't wear hiking boots." Thankfully, there's a book for the last one.

None of these scenarios were in What to Expect. Or Happiest Toddlers on the Block.

[Thanas]

Looks like a failure in education.

[Bakustra]

What do you mean?

[Shroom Man 777]

I offer you only this wisdom:

if it wasn't in Testing, we wouldn't have this thread.

yes

[Crossroads Inc.]

don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but on rather blatant example I recall from Alladin was near the end:

Iago lures Alladin out into the garden but pretending to sound like Jasmin. He turns to leave and runs smack into a Pink Flamingo. The bird gives him 'lovey eyess and is breathign heavy. Iago snarls "You Got a Problem PINKIE?" and then thawks the bird with a stick he had.

Now I know it may seem like reading to much into it, but really, a male bird, pink, giving lovey eyes to Iago..And then being hit and wacked while being called 'Pinkie" ?

[Shroom Man 777]

counter-argument for the disney gay bad thing:

timon and pumba

[Bakustra]

counter-argument for the disney gay bad thing:

timon and pumba

Yeah, I over-simplified. Timon, Pumbaa, the Genie, they're all camp characters who are meant to be sympathetic.

[Shroom Man 777]

the villains' camp makes them so awesome though

i was so disappointed that hades didn't get a number in that 3d musical movie i saw in disneyland

[Thanas]

What do you mean?

A) I wouldn't let a toddler watch Disney Movies. Not under 8 years.
B) Seems as if somebody forget to make sure to tell the child that these are fairy tales.

[Bakustra]

fun fact: hades' personality was originally going to be "deep-voiced darth satan" but when james woods auditioned with him as a fast-talking jewish used-car salesman, they went right with it.

[Purple]

I'm sorry that you are unable to read my posts. I think you should take a break before your brain overheats.

PS: Cruella de Vil, the Wicked Queen, and Maleficient invoke drag as well. Did I just blow your little mind?

No, it's just that you are making stuff up. Really that is all. You are making shit up about characters saying that becouse of completely unrelated things that could at best with a huge layer of abstraction be considered sort of related to some vague homosexual stereotypes you hold in your head those characters must be homosexual. And that is the sum of your argument. You have presented no proof of any of them having any sort of sexual preference for the same sex. Not even romantic preference.

Like for example to quote your later posts:

No, Maleficent, Cruella, and the Evil Queen all have angular faces and bodies compared to the other women of their films, and dress outrageously. They also bear the signs of makeup that other women in their films do not. So they're fairly draggy in the way they are presented.

By your logic, a rich woman who wears makeup and expensive clothes is draggy what ever that means. Fancy clothes and makeup don't make a woman gay. They make her a woman. And a rich woman will naturally dress to make her self look beautiful, even if she could be stupid or lacking taste to make her suck at it. Furthermore angular faces and bodies don't mean someone is gay or lesbian or what ever. The point of that part was to show that she is an evil, ugly hag. And we all know its a well known literally tool to make your villains ugly and heroes beautiful. It's as old as the middle ages. Thanas really nailed it on that one if you ask me.

It seems to me that you just have a beef against Disney or what ever and are reading into this what you want to see. Sort of how those religious nuts can read what ever they want into the bible.

[Bakustra]

What do you mean?

A) I wouldn't let a toddler watch Disney Movies. Not under 8 years.
B) Seems as if somebody forget to make sure to tell the child that these are fairy tales.

Again, 3 years old. Also, the entire presentation of Disney is as something that's suitable for all ages, so people expect that even an older toddler could handle them.

I'm sorry that you are unable to read my posts. I think you should take a break before your brain overheats.

PS: Cruella de Vil, the Wicked Queen, and Maleficient invoke drag as well. Did I just blow your little mind?

No, it's just that you are making stuff up. Really that is all. You are making shit up about characters saying that becouse of completely unrelated things that could at best with a huge layer of abstraction be considered sort of related to some vague homosexual stereotypes you hold in your head those characters must be homosexual. And that is the sum of your argument. You have presented no proof of any of them having any sort of sexual preference for the same sex. Not even romantic preference.

Like for example to quote your later posts:

No, Maleficent, Cruella, and the Evil Queen all have angular faces and bodies compared to the other women of their films, and dress outrageously. They also bear the signs of makeup that other women in their films do not. So they're fairly draggy in the way they are presented.

By your logic, a rich woman who wears makeup and expensive clothes is draggy what ever that means. Fancy clothes and makeup don't make a woman gay. They make her a woman. And a rich woman will naturally dress to make her self look beautiful, even if she could be stupid or lacking taste to make her suck at it. Furthermore angular faces and bodies don't mean someone is gay or lesbian or what ever. The point of that part was to show that she is an evil, ugly hag. And we all know its a well known literally tool to make your villains ugly and heroes beautiful. It's as old as the middle ages. Thanas really nailed it on that one if you ask me.

It seems to me that you just have a beef against Disney or what ever and are reading into this what you want to see. Sort of how those religious nuts can read what ever they want into the bible.

H A H A H
A H A H A
H A H A H
A H A H A
H A H A H

You're ignorant and yet demanding that your ignorance be privileged above the academics who originated these arguments and the actual queer people who have noted these kinds of things. I just want to pinch your little cheeks.

[Thanas]

What do you mean?

A) I wouldn't let a toddler watch Disney Movies. Not under 8 years.
B) Seems as if somebody forget to make sure to tell the child that these are fairy tales.

Again, 3 years old. Also, the entire presentation of Disney is as something that's suitable for all ages, so people expect that even an older toddler could handle them.

Just because something is advertised as such does not mean it should be. I would not show disney movies to a toddler. In fact, I would hardly show anything on TV to a toddler.

[Zixinus]

The only point of showing a toddler any TV or similar is to rescue yourself from them, as instinct demands from the children that they pay attention to the colorful moving shapes.

Ask any parent.

[Bakustra]

The only point of showing a toddler any TV or similar is to rescue yourself from them, as instinct demands from the children that they pay attention to the colorful moving shapes.

Ask any parent.

Yeah, that directly contradicts the experiences of a lot of people, including the mother in the blog and pretty much all the parents that I know.

[Zixinus]

Weird, when my aunt's grandchildren were visiting, they did precisely that (mostly). They're brought their Hello Kitty DVDs precisely for this reason, so my aunt would have a little respite.

[Akhlut]

Weird, when my aunt's grandchildren were visiting, they did precisely that (mostly). They're brought their Hello Kitty DVDs precisely for this reason, so my aunt would have a little respite.

I imagine having numerous other adults there helps tremendously as well. My three year old son watches TV at home with us and at his grandmother's house, but me and my wife still notice a tremendous difference because we can at least temporarily pawn him off on his grandmother and uncle(s) to some extent.

Television is used to entertain to a certain extent, and to provide experiences on the greater world that we can't easily show him (such as easy, safe observation of trains, numerous types of animal, etc.).

[Bakustra]

Somebody else raised a good point about Jasmine's agency- it's somewhat undermined by the Sultan being a doting dolt, if I may. She is able to exert the will she does solely through the indulgence and weakness of her father- Jafar is able to curtail it with ease.

[Metatwaddle]

What do you mean?

A) I wouldn't let a toddler watch Disney Movies. Not under 8 years.
B) Seems as if somebody forget to make sure to tell the child that these are fairy tales.

I think you're too quick to dismiss this as bad parenting. It's not that simple. A young girl will be familiar with some Disney movies in preschool no matter what her parents let her watch at home. She'll see her classmates' Halloween costumes, she'll watch the movies at her friends' houses, she'll hear people talking about the princesses and bragging about their trips to Disney World. I don't know if it's different in Germany, but in the US you simply can't isolate a young girl from Disney princesses for the first eight years of her life. They're ubiquitous.

As for the fairy tales part, the girl probably doesn't believe the stories, but she wants to emulate the princesses anyway. When you're a three-year-old girl, it's not about whether the stories are literally true, it's about whether a princess is a good thing to be. And of course a princess is a good thing to be when you're three. They're beautiful, popular, virtuous, and fulfilled in love, and your (real) friends think they're awesome.

The only weird thing here is that the things the three-year-old says about Disney princesses aren't true. Not universally, anyway. Belle didn't need rescuing at all; Pocahontas, Ariel, Rapunzel, and Mulan saved their princes' lives; and Tiana tackled her problems more effectively than her spoiled, hedonistic prince. Pocahontas, Belle, Rapunzel, and Mulan ran and jumped, and Ariel wanted to become human partly so that she could dance and jump ("legs are required for jumping, dancing"). From The Little Mermaid onward, most of the princesses are physically active, and most of them both rescued their princes and were rescued by their princes.

The stuff about hair and clothing is closer to the truth. The Disney princesses almost always wear skirts or dresses (or bikinis), and the dolls and other merchandise always portray them in their most elaborate outfits. Mulan sometimes wears pants and practical clothing, but that's only when she is pretending not to be a princess. I think Disney has the edge over My Little Pony in terms of well-developed female characters, but MLP is a lot better at demonstrating that happy, fulfilled girls don't have to look beautiful all the time. In MLP, Rarity's penchant for fashion is just another hobby or vocation, like Rainbow Jack's flying, Twilight Sparkle's magical studies, or Applejack's farming.

The other thing I like about MLP is its portrayal of relationships between female characters. Girls don't need TV shows to tell them to be friends with other girls, but MLP affirms that those friendships are valuable, and that it's important to treat your friends kindly and expect the same in return. In contrast, a Disney princess's most meaningful relationship is the one with her prince. Relationships with other women are either secondary in importance or not there at all. Mulan loves her mother and her grandmother, and Pocahontas and Tiana have female BFFs, but Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast don't even pass the Bechdel test, and the other five princess movies only pass because they have female villains.

Disney has better character development, but MLP consistently portrays healthy relationships between female characters -- and it doesn't make physical beauty a prerequisite for being loved. On balance, if I had a daughter, I'd rather she watch My Little Pony, but I probably wouldn't wring my hands if she wanted to watch post-Mermaid Disney movies.

(I'd draw the line at Barbie dolls, though.)

[Eleas]

(I'd draw the line at Barbie dolls, though.)

That may be the thing. Culturally, I'd say Disney Princesses and Barbie dolls are pretty much grafted together as a concept (and sometimes merged completely, as in the Disney Barbie doll series). The occasional mitigating differences ultimately aren't as important as the gestalt, which is that of the archetypal Princess: young, slender, wide-eyed, obliging, et cetera.