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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 04:20am
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Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
Caltrops I can see working, so long as the speedster doesn't have super-speed perception that lets them alter their path once they see the trap.


If they don't have the perceptions to match their speed, then it's only a matter of time before they slip on a banana peel or something and kill themselves anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 04:25am
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Simon_Jester wrote:
Controlling a rabid speed attack dog could be pretty difficult.

Rabid dogs die within a few days, so you can hide in your vibranium bunker and unleash the dogs and just wait them out. If they're infected with superfast rabies, they'll probably die superfast too, so it can be like some disposable munition where short-lived rabid speed wolves are stored in cryo in some kind of Soviet-style vertical launch silo or rotary launcher. Rabid dogs also suffer from hydrophobia, so an actual not-lava water moat will come in handy.

Or just skip the rabies and make them just generic superfast attack wolves.

Marvel should have the Mole and his molemen use superfast seeing eye dogs when they're attacking the surface world. That would make Fantastic Four so awesome.



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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 05:31am
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Oh man, here's an awesome rationale.

Speed Wolves, non-rabid, viciously intelligent and well-trained ones, are bloody hard to make. Not only do you inject a thylacine with speed serum, you have to train it to eat Barry Allens and Wally Wests and Quicksilvers too. And, like, if you're not a superfast trainer (you're not), how the heck can you train a Speed Wolf to murder people at super speeds? You'll have to use hypersonic ramjet missiles to train it, that's what. Launch railgun projectiles at multi-mach speeds and tell your Speed Wolf to fetch it. Have the Speed Wolf chase an XB-70 Valkyrie or an X-15 with the Flash painted on its tail fin. And this costs time, energy, and a substantially expensive military-industrial complex.

So, for a more plentiful and disposable low-cost weapon, you can simply inject a superfast hypersonic canine with rabies and just make it attack indiscriminately - at extreme speeds and with extreme killfuckery - anything and everything. This can be the plentiful short-ranged weapon system to kill speedsters at close in ranges. A terminal point-defense, if you may. Have your vibranium fortress surrounded by a moat, since rabid creatures are hydrophobic, and deploy Rabid Speed Wolf systems outside of that perimeter.

The trained Speed Wolves will be for longer-range, longer-duration engagements. They're costlier, but they're also much more accurate, precision guided, and cunning and vicious and persistent and they won't die from rabies within a period of time. They're like AMRAAMs and other BVR missiles compared to the Rabid Speed Wolf's short-range Sidewinder or Maverick missiles.

As Dr Roberts pointed out, the speedsters will have to be rather durable to survive superfast engagements. Imagine a Speed Wolf chasing after the Flash at multi-mach speeds, now imagine the wolf sinking its fangs on the Flash's throat, still at multi-mach speeds. The kinetic energy involved when those canines and bicuspids to rip Flash's neck open, or grasp onto his flailing struggling super-fast limbs and tear through flesh and bone, will be substantial. Hell, their jaws need to be adamantium-reinforced or something.

At least, these substantial reinforcements can be done to the non-rabid long-range Speed Wolves. The Rabid Speed Wolves can just defeat the speedsters with the force of their impacts. Or, since rabid dogs don't drink or eat, we can replace substantial portions of its digestive system with some kind of lightweight fragmenting explosives so even without direct contact with the Flash, the rabid wolves can still explode and potentially kill him with the blast radius.

Oh god. Yes.

Instead of explosives, we can surgically implant into the Rabid Speed Wolf's stomach a hive of Africanized Speed Bees, which the Rabid Speed Wolf can vomit out upon reaching terminal engagement range.



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Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 08:14am
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This is why sometimes I wonder if we're somehow related, Shroom. I was going the exact same train of thought about Rabid Speed Wolves and Africanized Speed Bees before I read your post.



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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 08:24am
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Sometimes I wonder what would happen if SDN was a think-tank with unlimited funding. Then I don't sleep for 5 days.



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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 10:42am
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KhorneFlakes wrote:
This is why sometimes I wonder if we're somehow related, Shroom.

If this is true, please excuse the weeping environmentalists as I undertake thorough family tree deforestation.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if SDN was a think-tank with unlimited funding. Then I don't sleep for 5 days.

We would be a government-funded brainwashing propaganda Boston Public FEMAdrassACORN of buttfucking socialist furries injecting crystal meth into our cocks to gain superspeed so we can yiff some Speed Wolves and/or hunt down bronies and devour their rainbow-maned flesh and thus ascend to the astral plane in a ritualistic sacrament against all that is past and holy.

Anyway, I'm gonna note that while non-BS ways of dealing with speedsters involving practical landmines, tripwires, punji pits and whatnot is all nice and good and in keeping with SDN's tradition of logical thinking and picking apart lousy fiction, I think non-non-BS, or completely total bullshit methods are way funner.

Sorry thread OP.


Someone said to me that it would be easier to train the wolves to hunt the Flash before injecting them with speed serum, so you won't need to train them with hypersonic stick-fetching.

But I think Robert Speed McNamara laughing while a Speed Wolf uses an XB-70 Valkyrie as a chew toy is p. cool.



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shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 10:46am
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How about funky mind-control devices? Don't tell them to kill their families or something they'd fight through, just get them to hold still for one second...

Build your evil bases with short hallways and very slow, code-keyed doors. Have them actually lock down if someone enters 3 or more wrong combinations. It won't stop the Flash (vibrating through solid matter) but it should work for most others.



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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 10:55am
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The speedster might've punched your head off before you've completed your psychic mind-control thought-command.

Like, hell, my Speed Wolves would've ripped your arms off and chewed on them and shat them out thanks to superfast gastric motility while you die of blood loss before you activate your parapsychic meta-mentallic dog whistle.



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Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 12:26pm
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Not if he doesn't know you're there. That's the point of using a machine, I guess- you can activate it remotely, so that while your speedster is tearing apart somewhere entirely different you are manipulating him.

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 12:53pm
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If the speedster is thinking superfast, your non-superfast invasive thoughts might not mind control him fast enough. Like, he might feel the invasive thoughts as they're forming in his brain, and by the time you project the thought "follow my commands, cluck like a...", he might've zipped from Budapest to your basement and punched you in the face or something, or otherwise have ran out of range or put on one of Bart Blade's aluminum foil hats or something the second he felt slow thoughts creeping like molasses in his brain.

How does it work if you can literally think faster than the guy trying to mind control you?

A Jedi goes "these are not the droids your looking for" with his brain but by the time he gets to project half that thought, the Flash's already disassembled C3PO, figured out that it was the droid he was looking for, and taken it home and used it as an ash tray. By the time the telepath has finished projecting his thought, the speedster's already not-there.


Sure, distracting the speedster works. If he's busy struggling because an area-effect taffy dispenser soaked him in delicious molasses and is slowing him down, or if he's otherwise bothered, a telepath can take his sweet time projecting foreign thoughts (with or without a machine) while the speedster is fucking around. But the idea of speedsters being so fast that they can still counter telepathy because telepaths think too slow is neat.

Like, if bullets were voice-operated and you could literally tell a bullet to stop mid-flight. But when someone shoots a gun at you, by the time you can say (or even think) "stop", the bullet's already in your throat.

To be faster than thought, these would be, like, the really ridiculous speedsters. Like, the same speedsters who hang around Superdickery Superman and probably were at Jimmy Olsen's wedding when he was getting married to a gorilla.

I still say that in Jedi versus Flash scenarios, sure the Jedi can get precog of what the Flash is gonna do next. But by the time the Jedi can twist his body around or bring his saber to bear or otherwise act on that preclod, the Flash is already behind him strangling him with piano wire.

Fuck Jedi.



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shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 07:01pm
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Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
Batman wrote:
But may also not be on them long enough for it to matter.

Unless the speedster is moving faster than electricity (somewhere in the vicinity of c), the shock's going to do its work.

Unless the speedster is moving faster than electricity and the lag time of your triggering mechanism. Also, note the qualifying 'may' in there. :wink:



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 07:49pm
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Batman wrote:
Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
Batman wrote:
But may also not be on them long enough for it to matter.

Unless the speedster is moving faster than electricity (somewhere in the vicinity of c), the shock's going to do its work.

Unless the speedster is moving faster than electricity and the lag time of your triggering mechanism.

That's why i suggested electrified plates that are turned on by default. The trigger turns them off (so people can walk on them at normal speeds), not off.



"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 07:56pm
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Dr Roberts wrote:
We have all seen speedsters like the flash and quicksilver who can perceive the world and react in such a way that the worked goes slow mo or even appears to stop.


I think one of the easiest ways to deal with a speedster hero is to just limit the hero himself, most specifically his perception. He should have to make a conscious decision to switch from normal perception to super speed mode, and take some time to accelerate to high speeds. And he should have to concentrate, expend energy, and will himself to stay in speed mode, necessitating breaks where he'd drop down to normal again if he's tired or distracted. Superfast running in a single direction should be easier to maintain than making multiple decisions or performing complex tasks at super speed.

I read about that infamous instance of Wally West sitting in a theater, feeling a bullet he never saw on the skin of his neck, and moving out of the way after that. Which is total wank which I can't see being justified on any narrative grounds. If that's how the Flash's powers operate, then no one should EVER get the jump on him or even touch him during battle. Yet his most enduring enemies include "guy with boomerangs" and "guy with flamethrower." :lol:



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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 08:08pm
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Lord of the Abyss wrote:
That's why i suggested electrified plates that are turned on by default. The trigger turns them off (so people can walk on them at normal speeds), not on.

Fixed that for you, and works a lot better, I agree. See OKD's solution for keeping the speedster down.
Quote:
I read about that infamous instance of Wally West sitting in a theater, feeling a bullet he never saw on the skin of his neck, and moving out of the way after that. Which is total wank which I can't see being justified on any narrative grounds. If that's how the Flash's powers operate, then no one should EVER get the jump on him or even touch him during battle. Yet his most enduring enemies include "guy with boomerangs" and "guy with flamethrower." :lol:

Welcome to the wonderful world of superhero comics. :D And who's the flamethrower guy?



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 08:19pm
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Heat Wave



"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 08:22pm
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Thank you.
Yeah, I know, I claim to live there, but in my defense not only do they reset the universe every couple of years but on top of that I get hit over the head a lot.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 08:44pm
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How about doing one of those 'optical illusion tricks', where objects are painted to blend into the background.

Do that with say, barbed thumbtacks covered in poison or something.

And the preasure plate idea would world wonderfully Batman. YOu just have to implement it properly.

i.e 1/3 of the way down a long hall, and the entire BUILDING electrifies.

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-05 08:55pm
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Of course I know how to take down the speedsters I work with, that's not the issue. I can do that because I know all of their weaknesses. The inability to do a Mach 19 turn with a radius of less than 29 metres, go up a vertical wall with less than 3 seconds warning or pass a hot dog stand without buying a dozen with everything. I assumed this was about doing in a speedster without knowing every last detail about what they're going to do.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-06 12:15am
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Man, I bet a Speed Wolf's urine moves superfast too. Its piss stream could cut through steel. Like a water jet cutter. It'll be a piss jet cutter.



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Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-06 12:21am
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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
I still say that in Jedi versus Flash scenarios, sure the Jedi can get precog of what the Flash is gonna do next. But by the time the Jedi can twist his body around or bring his saber to bear or otherwise act on that preclod, the Flash is already behind him strangling him with piano wire.

Fuck Jedi.
Well, the way you beat precognition is by figuring out how far ahead they can spot a no-win situation. If you can put them in a situation where the only way to survive is to not be there when the bomb goes off, you win. If you're good at putting them in such situations, then sure their precog will let them survive...

...Because they'll realize weeks ahead of time that their only hope of survival is to surrender preemptively, before you even decided to fight them! :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-06 12:25am
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We may have to specify if we're doing a generic speedster or someone specific. We have a much wider range of options for dealing with someone who can run at 200 mph, then we do for someone who can break the sound barrier.

And the Flash is just ridiculous. He's actually faster than light, can vibrate through solid matter, time-travel and dimension hop casually, and is has an 'aura' (ver scientific) that makes him immune to the friction heat he generates with his running, and by extension any other sort of heat weapon.

Which, yes, makes Heat Wave even more superfluous, but I thought he was a C-lister and not a "most enduring enemy" like Cold, Mirror Master, Trickster, et al.

I've theorised before that the 'Speed Force' is just a bullshit explanation for how the Flash really gets aorund, activating his time travel powers on a subconcious level whenever he starts running quick enough.



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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-06 02:33am
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CaptainChewbacca wrote:
If you can telekinetically lift a speedster off the ground, they can't do anything to you. Similarly some sort of magnetic field should do the trick.

The key is to prevent them from building up momentum.

There was an episode of X-Men Evolution where Jean Grey tries that on Quicksilver, it does not end well for her.


Jim Raynor wrote:
I read about that infamous instance of Wally West sitting in a theater, feeling a bullet he never saw on the skin of his neck, and moving out of the way after that. Which is total wank which I can't see being justified on any narrative grounds. If that's how the Flash's powers operate, then no one should EVER get the jump on him or even touch him during battle. Yet his most enduring enemies include "guy with boomerangs" and "guy with flamethrower." :lol:

Don't forget about the part where he then casually walks around the theater (at superspeed of course) and plucks the various bullets hanging about in mid-air so he can dispose of them before anyone gets hurt.


Ahriman238 wrote:
And the Flash is just ridiculous. He's actually faster than light, can vibrate through solid matter, time-travel and dimension hop casually, and is has an 'aura' (ver scientific) that makes him immune to the friction heat he generates with his running, and by extension any other sort of heat weapon.

Which, yes, makes Heat Wave even more superfluous, but I thought he was a C-lister and not a "most enduring enemy" like Cold, Mirror Master, Trickster, et al.

I've theorised before that the 'Speed Force' is just a bullshit explanation for how the Flash really gets aorund, activating his time travel powers on a subconcious level whenever he starts running quick enough.

The Speed Force acts as some giant energy sink/store. All the negative effects of traveling at Mach speeds and higher, just dump all that energy into the Speed Force. Need to travel through time? Just hop a ride in the Speed Force (dimensional travel is performed similarly). Also, thanks to a far greater deal of control over the Speed Force than any of his predecessors Wally can actually add or remove speed from any object he wants. I mean seriously, the man has Gambit as the New Sun level control over energy in his pocket and just fools around practically 24/7. Oh yeah, and the Speed Force, it's made out of Time.

Anyway, as has been said, you'd need to create a reliable trap to engage any speedster, even in real life. Just having one jump you in the middle of a crime would likely end in you going to prison 95% of the time.

If we are sticking with Comicbook speedsters though, you could have some Mad Scientist villian who has developed a weapon that cuts-off the Hero's connection to whatever force is providing their speed. That actually happened to Wally a couple times (well it wasn't by a villian, it was the result of dimensional travel) and limited him to only breaking the sound barrier.

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-06 12:11pm
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The problem is if the speedster is like Quicksilver who's body is adapted to run superspeed with no dimensional power tap that cant happen. Also Wally Barry and maybe Bart can't go superspeed without the Speed Force but Jay Garrick can but he tops at the speed of sound without it.



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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-06 06:36pm
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Ahriman238 wrote:
I've theorised before that the 'Speed Force' is just a bullshit explanation for how the Flash really gets aorund, activating his time travel powers on a subconcious level whenever he starts running quick enough.


IIRC it started out as an explanation for how he could run around at ~C without 1: having Superman+ durability and 2: without vaporizing everything within 10 miles in the tunnel-of-fusion shockwave he'd leave behind him.

...Of course, at this point it's the excuse for any bullshit power you can throw at him.

Anyway, the problem with lasers and electricity is exposing our speedster to a high enough dose of power in the eensy fraction of a second they're exposed. One of those experimental fusion systems would do it, but a typical comic book 20,000 watt man-portable laser cannon would hurt about as much as an overpowered laser pointer if your speedster is only standing there for a 20,000th of a second.

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 Post subject: Re: Non BS ways of dealing with speedsters PostPosted: 2011-12-07 06:09pm
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Location: The Cockpit of an X-wing
One way to deal with a speedster, the way I see it, is to fill the air of a room with abrasive microscopic particles. Any speedster moving above a certain velocity is going to get sand-blasted to death. Granted I would recommend any one who would try this to wear a breathing filter, seeing as how said abrasive particles (Like Asbestos) are rather bad for your lungs.

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