No, it showed that the TF are a bunch of morons who do random things just because some hooded nobody shouts at them. It's even implied that if the Jedi had shouted at them too they'd have immediately abandoned their quest for unknown gain, Daultay Dofine didn't even need the shouting part to back down. Shows also that if the Jedi hadn't wussed out and forgotten about their superpowers when the droideka showed up the "nefarious" plot of Nicolae Palpacarpathia would have been resolved in ten minutes.

What does that mean? The TF are fucking weak in their role as villains and their motives muddled as heck. Palpacarpathia gets everything he wants because everyone else is stupid, not because he's a savvy political genius as it should be. Is that so hard to understand as a criticism?

---

人之初
性本善
性相近
習相遠

People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

The TF are the patsies, wow, what a revelation. This is totally irrelevant btw as the TF is still the direct opposition to our heroes.. and I use the term "opposition" here loosely, they're more like a speedbump than some overpowering juggernaut. Being a patsy is not the same as being roughly as threatening as a litter of kittens. It does no good that some opening crawl makes them out to be evil when it's then reduced to on screen into a "I will so totally snag that candy from that baby.. but first I need some man in a robe to wipe my ass.. and tie my shoelaces.. and waaaahh I need a hug too.." Okay so if they're not meant to be threatening, competent, evil, dangerous and or combination of those, their defeat at the hands of our heroes is not a victory to be celebrated, it's a humdrum plotpoint. It's utterly obvious that TF is not the main villain in the trilogy, but if you're going to do a shadowy mastermind plot arc, you need to throw in some twists and turns. Pull a proverbial rabbit out of the hat, and this is where all the prequel movies fail.

I really feel bad for Palpatine, he really picked his footsoldiers badly on the first time around. I mean his puppet army of droids is a joke, his "well trained" apprentice's main plan to ambush the Jedi was... drive at them and jump over them swing his lightstick, lose them, then appear again at the last minute to engage the Jedi and by doing so got caught in a duel that .. well had no real impact on the whole fight for control of the planet. Good thing he got miss odd hair to get some shit done, she after all did the most to advance his nefarious plot.. which was just about the only thing of consequence that carried over from TPM to the other movies.

-Gunhead

---

"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel

"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives

Also, why does the TF being Palpacarpathia's patsies somehow mean their motivations shouldn't be elaborated upon? It's even remarked in the movie itself that the TF's actions make no logical sense FFS! So why not throw us a bone and tell us at least why Palpy can boss them around with impunity? Getting one of the most powerful factions of the galaxy to grovel before you is a free opportunity to portray Palpy as the genius he should be, yet just like Carpathia compelling the US to give up its entire nuclear arsenal the TF relinquishing its own autonomy to a cowled bully is presented as a lame fait accompli.

One of the biggest flaws of the PT is that its villains, especially the front and center ones, are not used to their fullest potential or just entirely wasted. If the Palpatine-Gunray dynamic had been closer to Shaddam IV-Baron Harkonnen than Professor Coldheart-Frostbite it would have improved the movie immensely simply because it would have been more interesting to show how Palpatine deals with an ally about as ruthlessly ambitious as himself and actually challenged his political abilities in a thematically appropriate way.

Also, just tell me, what's more entertaining to watch? The Care Bears defeating Frostbite or Paul Atreides defeating the Baron?

---

人之初
性本善
性相近
習相遠

People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

So at this point we actually have some idiots in this thread arguing that the Trade Federation's motivation isn't important, because the Trade Federation isn't the main villain in TPM. Despite the fact that the primary conflict that drives the plot is the Trade Federation invasion. Despite the fact that the force which directly threatens the main characters throughout the movie is the Trade Federation. Despite the fact that the final climactic battle depicts the heros trying to overthrow the Trade Federation...

So then, if the Trade Federation isn't the main villain/antagonist, then who is? It's not Palpatine, since he remains a shadowy background figure who doesn't interact much with the main characters. It's not Maul, since he doesn't even have any lines and he only becomes a major obstacle for the characters at the very end. So who's the villain then? Maybe it's Jar Jar, or Watto, or Sebulba. Yeah, it's probably Sebulba. At least Sebulba's motivations were clear: he wants to win a pod-race.

So basically, the people defending TPM are essentially arguing that it's an even worse movie than everyone says - it doesn't even have a clear villain.

Let's do a quick comparison with a movie series that has a relatively similar setup: The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Now the overall villain in LotR is Sauron, just like the overall villain in SW is Palpable. Yet in The Fellowship of the Ring, he barely makes any appearance at all save in the primary exposition and in very brief glimpses over the course of the movie, much like Palpable. As far as the FotR is concerned, the primary antagonists for that movie are secondary to the primary antagonist of the series as a whole, much like the TF is for Palpable in TPM, but that doesn't stop them from being the primary antagonist for that one movie.

In FotR, there are three primary, plainly visible antagonists: The Ringwraiths, Saruman, and the Balrog/Moria orcs. Their motivations are also made perfectly clear during the course of the movie: The Ringwraiths are extensions of Sauron's will, and they want that damn ring. Saruman explicitly states that he believes all who stand against Sauron will fall, and he doesn't want to be on the losing side. The Balrog and the orcs of Moria have more animalistic motivations, the Fellowship intruded on their territory, and they're reacting violently to it.

The Trade Fed is... umm... greedy? For something? Which is in some way served by attacking Naboo? Or they're patsies who have no spine or willpower despite heading a massive interplanetary conglomerate (or government, or alliance, or something, whatever the fuck they are)?

---

Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

They have some goal which is served by attacking Naboo- it's over "taxation of trade routes." They're the Trade Federation. Trade is what they do, and they don't like taxation of trade, which makes sense. The exact details of how they expect attacking Naboo to help, I don't know, and frankly I don't want to know because it's immaterial to the long-term established order of the setting.

This dispute over some wrinkle of legislation is a pretext- a sign that private corporations in Star Wars are powerful enough to besiege worlds, and to at least contemplate military action against the wishes of the Republic. And that the Republic itself has decayed to the point where it's quite possible they'd let a private corporation get away with it. I don't want ten minutes of exposition on how tariff regulations are distributed in a fictional society to explain the details.

The fact that the leaders of the Trade Fed are ditherers, who get nervous as soon as the Jedi show up, doesn't surprise me that much. Remember, this comes out when all I know of Star Wars is the original trilogy: the Jedi are this order of supernatural warrior-mystics who've kept peace and order in the galaxy for millenia. They're supposed to be pretty damned impressive, and the reputation is even more impressive than the reality. So when the Trade Federation's mysterious benefactor is unable to prevent Jedi Knights (and, implicitly, the full eye of the Republic) from being turned on their activities, it makes the Trade Federation guys nervous.

Episode I has two purposes, from a literary point of view. One is to introduce the cast of characters who will appear throughout the next two (or five) movies. The other is to lay down what the Republic was before Palpatine knocked it over.

I think a lot of the complaint here is that it fails in the first capacity- and I can see that line of argument, but on the other hand I think the details of the old Republic's government are rightfully something for the EU to unravel, not something to be crammed into movies that are supposed to be character-oriented.

Jeez they sure did a good job of spending most of their time on a guy who dies at the end of the movie (and whose actor doesn't care lol) while giving everyone else less characterization than a Transformers Tech Spec. But of it was so worth it because the payoff of Qui-Gon was that completely unnecessary scene explain Force Ghosts that doesn't make sense in the long run anyway.

Amidala is very low key and uninteresting in the Phantom Menace. And all her romantic feelings towards Anakin started in the second movie. Unless we want to say her little scene where she said she'd keep Anakin safe or whatever (good job there, you let him fly a plane for hijinks) meant she liked little boys.

And Anakin was played by a different actor who doesn't even act like the kid version. They couldn't even give him a callback of like "Spinning is a good trick!" or anything. Yeah he misses his mom but you don't need an entire movie to explain that. It's like having one movie dedicated to Luke and his aunt and uncle just so we geeeeeeeeeet that he's sad when they get zap fried.

Even the cartoon rabbit's role was greatly diminished.

And really the Republic before Palpatine's takeover is such a minimal part of the movies and its not even well realized. What's difference did it make to all the people in it whether he was in charge or not? He didn't really save Naboo, the Goongas and existing force did that. There was still a bunch of wars for all three movies. But it's the least engaging kind of war that just produces elaborate CGI graphics with little consequence. Oh but they attack the Wookiees because Chewbacca is one of those and we care about Chewbacca.

And don't tell me it's better in the cartoons. I only watch them japtoons because I can't understand them.

So we're left with Obi-wan who is a glorified extra in the first movie. In fact he has less of an effect on the plot than he did in the first real Star Wars movie. His biggest contribution is killing a bad guy we don't really know or care about.

Greatest movie eveeeeeeeeer podcast

---

プロジェクトゾハルとは何ですか？
ロボットが好き。

Fine whatever, can we at least agree that RLM loves to make shit up, or do his supporters really think "super genius Padamay" was totally fooled by Palpy's schtick during the "So this is how liberty dies!" scene?

You're defending it right now. The tax issue doesn't need to be elaborated on it just needs to be written in such a way that we know how it motivates our main villains. Right now they have no motivation and that is shitty writing, unless you are 10. If you think that's nuts, fantastic, you can remove yourself from the conversation regarding story because you don't can about competent writing.

Was Vader a good guy or a bad guy in Jedi? I mean, since they are easily identifiable? Han Solo was a smuggler out for himself at the beginning or ANH but his character changed by the end (this is called an arc) and risked his own life for the rebellion without thought of personal gain. He doesn't start off not as a hero but grows into one. A concept even a 10 year old can most likely grasp, but one Lucas couldn't write for a single character in TPM. So please stop drawing parallels between the writing in TPM and ANH.

Oh thank god you've returned, the voice of reason. I believe it was joseph campbell who said "Why does the hero need a journey? We get it he's the good guy. Have him blow up some stuff and beat the bad guys. End of story"

No I'm not.

IOW, you dowant it to be elaborated on when the whole purpose of the issue was to show the TF were the Bad Guys, nothing more.

Yeah, that's a great counterargument when I already admitted that TPM was essentially geared to be understandable by 10 year olds.

Competent writing doesn't mean giving you what youwant, it means giving the target audience what[/i]they[/i] want. At that, TPM seems to have succeeded.

He was a Bad Guy that, at the last minute, changed sides?

I will the moment you admit the writing in TPM was easily understandable by10 year olds. I have, at no time, argued anything except that.

You're under the assumption that TPM was made for 10 year olds and only 10 year olds. I am not.

Wait, since when is 'competent writing' equated with 'popular writing'? Some of the best writing actually challenges, surprises or confounds their audience.

I think some people here are really underestimating the intelligence of your average 10 year old.

Do Seltzeberg, Emmerich and Bay movies therefore contain "competent" writing as well? Hell, does the Left Behind series, considering how wildly successful it is? Are you even listening to yourself? Also, I have to disagree vehemently that the PT's target audience asked for muddled plots, poor characterization and sub-standard writing. I find the insinuation quite insulting.

Once and for all:

Success =/= Quality

---

人之初
性本善
性相近
習相遠

People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

Speaking of humdrum plotting, lets compare the ewoks and gungans in their roles in the final battle. The "climatic" fight at the end of TPM borrowed heavily from the final battle of ROTJ. We have helpfull natives check, we have a fight in space against a star fortress check and we have a lightsaber duel check. Okay so how do we get the gungans on board? Simple, ask them, because all sentient beings are willing to go to war if someone asks them.. right? Specially as the gungans have been established as fierce warriors by JarJar. Now what about the ewoks, well... let them think our robot is a deity, reinforce this image by floating him in the air and you have an army of teddy bears. Now the latter may not be greatest plotting in all of existence, but hey it's plausible enough. Far more plausible than "please fight and die for us?" "Sure, it's monday, on mondays we fight and die". The battle and involment. Gungans are tasked with drawing the droid army out of the capital, sure that makes sense, but after they've done that the fight itself becomes irrelevant as it will be resolved by dumb luck taken physical form. Ewoks on the other hand show great understanding of their terrain, lead the assault force to a less guarded entrance, strike from concealment to confuse the imperials and this allows the the rebel force to destroy the bunker. The destruction of the bunker is a fundamental aspect of the rebel plan. It doesn't get done the whole attack fails. So to sum it up we have ewoks who's traits are in fact used and who are fundamental to success and then we have gungans that have special traits that don't get used and their contribution to the overall success of the plan is debatable.

I really don't like ewoks or gungans. But I don't like ewoks because teddy bears are overtly cutesy and fit badly for that reason. I don't like the gungans because they are just funny looking ball throwers and their overall contribution to the movie was pretty much slim and none.

-Gunhead

---

"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel

"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives

Well, the droid army went after the Gungan's too, so there's self-preservation as a motivator. However, that "fierce warrior race" with its "bombad army" didn't even think about violently resisting the invaders until Padme groveled before Boss Spittlesplash. So, there were racial tensions between human Naboo and Gungans? Why not give that a bigger part in the movie instead of making it an almost afterthought resolved in two seconds flat in a rather patronizing manner ("Just flatter those dumb savages a bit and they'll die for you, lol!")? Once again the money lay on the street and Lucas went for the dogturds instead.

---

人之初
性本善
性相近
習相遠

People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

None of the final battle sequences in TPM had any real significance. If Padme had just weighted a few hours, the situation would have been resolved by the newly elected chancellor. And of course, Darth Maul had no reason to engage the Jedi on Naboo - his master's plan was already completed, so the ending lightsabre battle was pretty pointless as well.

Yes...none of the characters really knew this, but it's sort of bizarre to create all of these climactic action sequences that ultimately contribute nothing of real consequence. Very disjointed plotting indeed.

Y'know, more on Gunhead's point, I'm not a big fan of the Gungans, but I would have appreciated seeing their natural advantages used more. How about, after luring the droids out, they immediately retreat to the nearest body of water, forcing the droids to engage them on amphibious terrain where the Gungans have a decided advantage? That would have been fucking awesome and a type of battle you really don't see that often in cinema, sort of a reverse Normandy.

---

Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

I'm not even sure that would have worked. If Palpatine as freshly inaugurated chancellor had immediately taken steps to rebuff the Trade Federation in favor of Naboo it would have given the latter a reason to call for a vote of misconfidence of their own due to perceived one-sided bias of the government. Actually ousting Valorum, who Padme herself admitted was a sympathizer of Naboo, in a fit of pique was about one of the stupidest things for her to do and the only reason she did it is because Palpatine used his Carpathian charm and kindly asked her to do it. She then flat out stated afterwards that even if Palpatine got elected he wouldn't be able to get anything done in time. Man, the characters are kind enough to point out the holes in the story themselves, how courteous of them.

---

人之初
性本善
性相近
習相遠

People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

Nice to see that the great debate of our times, "What were the exact details behind the taxes on trade that the Trade Federation didn't like" are still lively as ever!

The Trade Fed are the bad guys, OK? They escalated an economic dispute into a one-sided armed conflict, against a "small" world that can't fight back. Because, bear with me now, they're "greedy" and evil. It's tough, I know. It took me several years of investigation to come to that conclusion. Without that, all the stuff about a boy growing up and leaving home, or the decline of the Republic, or the sword fights and explosions just don't "make any sense."

Next time someone makes a movie about WWI, biographical details of the Archduke and the 19 year old kid who shot him must be included. Next time someone makes a movie about Desert Storm, the economic and political problems in Iraq preceding the invasion just have to be explained. If the movie doesn't do that, then the movie doesn't "make sense."

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

Because we're defending it from extremist fanboy criticisms which are just stupid, regardless of the quality of the movie itself. Stoklasa's review is mindless, shameless dishonesty from beginning to end, up to and including unsupported insinuations about the way Lucas treats his employees. Elfdart is completely right when he says its stupidity is contagious. It completely lowered the quality of SW discussion in the fandom.



SW is a movie series that deals in simple good and evil. Villains are practically evil for the sake of being evil. The Galactic Empire was simply said to be "evil." Had TPM not mentioned the taxes AT ALL, and simply stated that the Trade Fed was "blockading Naboo," the movie would have worked just the same. Mentioning the taxes at all is arguably more than Lucas even had to do.

The taxes are a line of trivia. A brief few words meant to remind people of the way some real wars actually start, as well as to emphasize the greediness of the Trade Fed. Also, maybe imply that the Republic is so weak and corrupt that simple economic disputes can tear it apart now. That's all. The movie is about shoot outs, sword fights, and beating the designated bad guys.

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

Yeah, we get it. You don't care that much about plotting when it comes to Hollywood blockbusters. Again, that's your opinion and that's fine.

But for the fucking 1000th time, you have to at least admit that the plotting in TPM is drastically bare-bones compared with most other movies, even other mindless Hollywood blockbusters. The Galactic Empire was evil for the sake of evil, yeah, but every action they took had an explicit, clearly explained goal: capture the Deathstar plans, attack Hoth, get the Millenium Falcon, etc.

Since you finally seem to be implicitly conceding that TPM doesn't provide an explanation for the actions of the main antagonists (except in extremely broad strokes), you now seem to be arguing that it just doesn't matter, because Star Wars is for the kiddies and there's lots of explosions.

Except even mindless popcorn flicks and kids movies usually provide a specific explanation for the villain's on-screen actions. Someone brought up earlier that even fucking Gargamel in the Smurfs has a clear agenda that makes sense within the parameters of the show: kidnap enough Smurfs to create a magic spell that makes gold. That's why he's after the fucking smurfs. With the Trade Federation, we don't even know why they're invading Naboo. The fact that you can't even see why people would criticize the film for this is absolutely astounding.

...and the characters within the movie point out it's a nonsensical move. Just how much clearer could it get that this is a plot hole the movie itself begs to get filled? If villains do seemingly counter-intuitive and irrational things it has to be explained why they do so, otherwise they look like a bunch of brain-addled, dumb idiots which diminishes every victory scored over them by the good guys. Lucas decided the main antagonist from TPM to be a trading company. Trading companies act out of different motives than mercenary bands, roving gangs of bandits or a fascistic military force. They usually are not armed to the teeth, much less armed to the extent of being able to invade and occupy entire worlds.
There are exception to be found in the real world, the most notorious one being the infamous British East India Company. Lucas could have modeled the invasion of Naboo after the BEEC's takeover of India and their ousting after the sepoy mutiny and, to drive the point home that the galaxy is in a desolate state, have it fail just like it did in real life.

Let Palpatine become chancellor over a massive crisis of confidence in the government, that's how that austrian guy with the toothbrush 'stache made it to the top after all. It would also deliver a perfect lead-in for the next two movies and the Clone Wars.

Lucas had all his work cut out for him, yet he decided to spend forty minutes on a boring go-kart race (that is the race itself and all scenes pertaining to it). Is it a wonder that some people get enraged about this?

---

人之初
性本善
性相近
習相遠

People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

I think that was what he was going for, what with titles like Viceroy. He just didn't do it that well.

---

"I'm just reading through your formspring here, and your responses to many questions seem to indicate that you are ready and willing to sacrifice realism/believability for the sake of (sometimes) marginal increases in gameplay quality. Why is this?"
"Because until I see gamers sincerely demanding that if they get winged in the gut with a bullet that they spend the next three hours bleeding out on the ground before permanently dying, they probably are too." - J.E. Sawyer