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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-08 02:03pm
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What fucking history?

They were virtually devoid of "modern" history beyond the bare scraps of it, and the more recent hints of actual "character" for them, which we can safely attribute to smoothing the way for the 5th edition background.

Their ancient history was basically myth and legend, sure, it had dramatic flair in some respects, but it wasn't particularly interesting on the face of it.

I'm not saying it was shit, but you can't say this has "ruined" some grand tapestry of story telling.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-08 03:29pm
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And in addition to that, their history in the new Codex is pretty consistent with their history from the old Codex. Yes, dynasties never got mentioned in the old Codex and neither was the rebellion against the C'tan, but other than that it's still pretty much the same:
Necrons were a short-lived race that developed complex technology, eventually attacked the Old Ones because they resented their long live* and subsequently get their asses kicked. They discover the C'tan, get turned into Necrons and subsequently exterminate the Old Ones. Due to the damage caused by the war, they go to sleep to reawaken once they can reign again.
*(which now turns out to be a cover story by the leadership who sought an outside thread to stay in control)

That's the same basic backstory.
But in the old Codex, there was little else we learned about the Necrons other than "they hate all life" and "they have awesome non-warp based technology" - neither in their history nor from their more recent events.
Compared to that, we now have several historical characters (go ahead, name a single Necron from the old Codex), an actual culture, more motivations other than "kill everything" and even less "we are a bigger threat than anyone else" to boot.


Bottom line:
The old Codex contained little actual history, which was mostly left intact anyway. The new Codex adds plenty more.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-08 04:31pm
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Some musings on the rule changes and new units in the new codex:

First of all, the army no longer fades once it's down to less than 25%. Also, Necrons only repair themselves on a 5+ now (can be increased to 4+ with a Resurrection Orb), but it works against every sort of attack. And (almost) everyone does it now.

Necron Warriors are now weaker and cheaper. They only cost 13 points, but only have a 4+ armor save now.
Immortals are now Troops. Their Gauss Blaster is no longer an Assault weapon, but it's still a S5 AP4 weapon on a Marine-profile for 17 points. They can also carry Tesla Carbines which trade the AP for the ability to score 2 additional hits and ARE assault weapons.
Warriors can take a Ghost ark - an open-topped skimmer that can resurrect destroyed Necron Warriors at any time and is quite resilient for a transport vessel (13 armor on front and sides until it gets a penetrating hit, after which it has 11 on all sides).
Both Troop choices and several Elite choices can take Night Scythes as dedicated transports. Those are fast skimmers with 11 armor that can transport up to 15 models, can fire all their weapons at cruising speed and move 36 inches when going all-out and are armed with 2 S7 Assault 4 weapons that can hit more than one unit. At just 100 points they are a steal, but if they are shot down the transported unit will go into reserve and can't deep-strike.

Deathmarks are a unit of Snipers (their rifles target brain-tissue and are rapid-fire weapons) that can arrive via deep-strike immediately when an enemy does the same. And they will wound a single unit you can designate on 2+.

Lychguards are the new Immortals - Bodyguards for your character models. They have Strenght and Toughness 5 and two attacks and carry Warscyhtes - two-handed power weapons that give +2 strenght and 2D6 armor penetration. Those can be upgraded to normal energy weapons and Dispersion shields - the latter give them a 4+ invulnerable save, and if they pass it against a ranged attack they can deflect it upon an enemy up to 6 inch away. However, they are pretty expensive at 40 points per model (45 when upgraded).

Triarch Preatorians are S5 T5 jump infantry with S5 AP2 assault 1 weapons - that have just 6 inch range, but double as power weapons. They can also be equipped with the more conventional pistol&sword, the former being S6 and the latter a power weapon. Again very expensive at 40 points per model.

C'tan now come as "Shards" in the form of monstrous Elite units that can be equipped with a range of abilities too wide to cover here.
Flayed ones can now deep strike and infiltrate, have 3 attacks per model and cost just 13 points. However they only have a 4+ armor save.
Triarch Stalkers are walkers that can be equipped with a variety of nasty ranged weapons. They also have 13 armor (until penetrated), but are open-topped and lack cyborg-melee weapons. Their 150+ point cost and Elite status can be justified by their special ability - if they hit an enemy all attacks against that unit count as twin-linked for the rest of the turn.

Canopthek Wraiths are an upgraded version of the old Wraiths. Oh, and now they can be equipped with a short-ranged weapon that insta-kills without save if the enemy fails a strenght-test.
Scarabs now profit from a new Necron special rule (that is also found on a few weapons) that allows them to permanently remove a models armor save or reduce the armor on vehicles.
Tomb Blades are small Necron space fighters - they function as Jetbitkes. As such they have toughness 5, but only a 4+ armor save unless upgraded. They can use a variety of ranged weapons, and are not too expensive at 20 points before upgrades.
Destroyers are pretty much the same as before, except that they are now Jump Infantry - and are now one unit type, with Heavy Destroyers being a weapon upgrade and both being mixable in the same unit. That also makes Heavy Destroyers a Fast Attack choice.

The Monolith can now use it's portal to force all enemy models within D6 inches to pass a strength test or be removed without save, in addition to it's teleport function. Note that living metal has been changed and now only prevents crew shaken and stunned results (and not always, depening on a dice roll) - however, all vehicles have it. The Monolith now costs 200 points.
The Doomsday Arc is armed with a Strenght 9 AP 1 large blast weapon with 72 inch range. However, if it moves the weapon is much weaker (S7 AP 4, 24 inches small blast). It can also fire broadsides of 5 gauss flayers at seperate targets (and shares that ability with the Ghost Arc). It costs 175 points.
The Annihilation Barge comes with 2 good, medium-ranged weapons and is much cheaper at 90 points.
The Doom Scythe is a Night Scythe that exchanges it's transport capacity for a Death Ray - it hits every model along a 3D6 inch long line with S10 and AP1. It's much more expensive than the Night Scythe at 175 points.
Canopthek Spyders are monstrous creatures that can repair vehicles, produce Scarab Swarms and nullify psychic powers within a short range.

HQ-choices are pretty basic - just two in addition to the special characters.
A Necron Overlord is pretty much the same as the old Necron Lord. He can now ride a Command Barge - a fast skimmer that allows him to make attacks from within if it moves over units and which he can repair by sacrificing wounds.
If you take an Overlord you can also take up to 5 Lords and up to 5 Crypekts. Both can be split off into an Infantry unit. The Lords have 2 attacks, Strenght and Toughness 5 at 35 points each - they can act as Sergeants can of course put Resurrection Orbs (which now only work on a single unit) into your units. Crypteks are no better than Necron Warriors, but can put a lot of fancy equipment that was formerly carried by Necron Lords on the Table, such as the Veil of Darkness or the Solar Pulse. Each special equipment can only be taken once, preventing extra-strong cheese quite well.
Destructor Lords have the profile of a Necron lord with 6 Toughness and act as jump infantry, but don't allow you to take lesser lords or Crypteks.



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"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-08 05:38pm
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History isn't the problem. The humanization of the entire Necron race is the problem. The codex should have placed a greater emphasis on the "culling" of inferior species being the norm for Necrons, instead of focusing on the honourable ones. They've definitely lost a lot of their feel with this one, which damages an otherwise decently written codex.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-08 06:47pm
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Heh, I heard a mention on another board of GW employees using the 'unlimited range' rule on the Tachyon arrow, calling up other stores and launching strikes on games going on there (I'm betting there's a line of sight rule they're forgetting but it's still a funny image).

Also looking at it I really like all the crazy technology the Necrons can throw on the board now. Before most of it was 'just like everyone else's stuff.. only a little better'. Especially since so much of that is tied in with some really fun sounding special characters Like Orikan's Staff of Tomorrow which hits the target before he actually swings it thanks to temporal shennanigans).

Also Trazyn is some unholy hybrid of Indiana Jones and Doctor Doom.

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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-08 08:19pm
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Hearing the amazing things these guys seem to be capable of... does anyone think this makes the Necrons overpowered?

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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-09 08:34pm
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Simon_Jester wrote:
Hearing the amazing things these guys seem to be capable of... does anyone think this makes the Necrons overpowered?


People have been complaining that the Necrons were overpowered since they were first introduced to the game. Doubly so in BFG. Actually, the Necrons have (or had) one of the biggest weaknesses in the game for balance purposes, so most of the carping was just the result of people not being used to the Necrons and how to fight them.

The reason people are complaining is because this latest codex makes the Necrons more like everyone else.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-09 11:06pm
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The Necrons' huge weakness being that if you blow up enough of their infantry they lose even if their tanks and elites are on the rampage, right?

Doesn't that mean that their big weakness is now... gone?

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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-09 11:08pm
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Simon_Jester wrote:
The Necrons' huge weakness being that if you blow up enough of their infantry they lose even if their tanks and elites are on the rampage, right?

Doesn't that mean that their big weakness is now... gone?


Looks that way. :twisted: :twisted:

EDIT: In BFG, their big weakness is that while they have a high maximum move, they also have a very high minimum move, so manuvering them properly is a pain. In the fluff this is represented by Necron ships being very fast, but not very manuverable.



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Last edited by Ahriman238 on 2011-11-09 11:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-09 11:08pm
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Simon_Jester wrote:
The Necrons' huge weakness being that if you blow up enough of their infantry they lose even if their tanks and elites are on the rampage, right?

Doesn't that mean that their big weakness is now... gone?

It was a stupid weakness, frankly.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 04:12am
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Ugolino wrote:
History isn't the problem. The humanization of the entire Necron race is the problem. The codex should have placed a greater emphasis on the "culling" of inferior species being the norm for Necrons, instead of focusing on the honourable ones. They've definitely lost a lot of their feel with this one, which damages an otherwise decently written codex.


Why?

I for one find it refreshing that the 41st Millennium now has some "good" (and they're hardly perfect) guys (The Silent King and the Triarch Praetorians) who have a realistic chance of total victory. They're what the Tau should be.

Some (most) of the necron lords are still massive tools, and there's plenty of focus on their insanity. You can still have necrons that hate the living, but you also have plenty of other options. Are you sure you don't think it focuses too much on the good ones because they're the new and thus jump out at you more?



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 05:29am
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I think that they made the Necrons into SPACE Pharaons/egyptians of the wh40k universe.

they lost a lot of grimdark they had before, and no more great galaxy wide harvests for the catan??


whats next? do the tyranids get stupid names and characthers like from starcraft zerg( ygdrasllloooth), and give them personality??

i thought that the point of old necrons was to be an unstopable evil undead army, but are stopable because their technosorcery has faild and they wake up one tomb world at a time....

+ 955.M41 allys of the blood angels===????????

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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 09:12am
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Yes, they've removed the 'harvest for the evil star gods' motivation.

Their objective is now to 'rebuild their empire, rebuild their race.'

But that was their objective when they were introduced back in 2nd Edition, and back when I started collecting them, too, as a force of mysterious raiders. I like them much better that way than as wretched slaves of the star gods (though I am fond of them too).

In short: These are the old necrons - The ones that Eldrad Ulthran called (while still fearing their potential for evil) 'The Great Civilization,' way back in 2nd Ed - they're back.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 10:47am
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Sweet. I held off on getting the new Codex until I could read some opinions ITT, but I think I'll go treat myself now. It sounds at the very least like an interesting read, and I'm really liking some of the new units.

The Space Egyptians thing really doesn't bother me. Heck, if you believe some of the wackier theories bouncing around the interweb, maybe these are the ancient egyptians, or a brother-race of them.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 05:15pm
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NecronLord wrote:
Ugolino wrote:
History isn't the problem. The humanization of the entire Necron race is the problem. The codex should have placed a greater emphasis on the "culling" of inferior species being the norm for Necrons, instead of focusing on the honourable ones. They've definitely lost a lot of their feel with this one, which damages an otherwise decently written codex.


Why?

Because they feel like humans in robot bodies. The new fluff is cool, but one of the good points of the old, barely-there Necrons were they were utterly alien and unknown, beyond a few key points. Alright, that was mostly because they had fuck-all fluff, but I think the new background for them goes too far the other direction. Yes, there's all the stuff about how most of the remaining sentient ones have lots of different mental imperfections and whatnot, but that just makes them seem like "A bunch of guys made out of metal, also some of them are senile".

I guess what I'm getting at is the Tau, when written well, seem genuinely alien, while the Newcrons seriously don't, at least for now.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 05:38pm
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The third edition (they're not really the oldest) necrons were alien because they had no personality at all. When they spoke articulately (say, Xenology) they were human in manner too.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 06:58pm
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I'm against.

I like the new Necron fluff, but not so much the new C'tan fluff.

The Nightbringer WAS the grim reaper. The reason that every race has the Grim Reaper of an image of death was that He had visited them. Except the Orks, who don't fear death.

The Deciever has been one of the movers and shakers of 40k, one of the very very few who can win at chess against Tzeench and the Laughing God's, he who orchestrated the 13th Black Crusade as a means of removing the Blackstone Fortresses - the only weapons capable of destroying a C'tan - from the hands of the eldar.

Except neither of those is the case, now. The Nightbringer was broken by the Necrons before man evolved. The Deciever is not an individual and has no will of his own, now. Eldrad died for nothing. I don't see why they had to pussify the C'tan in order to make the necrons more characterful.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 10:40pm
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Sinewmire wrote:
I don't see why they had to pussify the C'tan in order to make the necrons more characterful.


I agree entirely on this mind you. It would have been far mor interesting if there was some kind of balance of power thing going on.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-10 11:05pm
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It's hinted that there still might be some C'tan out there though, IIRC.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-11 12:19pm
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Does it actually say the Necrons killed the C'Tan? What if they simply went into hiding, and retained their earlier positions (the Nightbringer as the Gim Reaper, the Void Dragon as the Omnissiah etc)?



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-11 01:00pm
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It only states that 'the C'tan' were defeated and shattered by the Necrons, then mentions that various powerful entities have been taken to be C'tan by those unware of their true nature. This can be taken to imply that the actual C'tan were all sealed and that the other appearances were something else. It is also possible that some C'tan did in fact escape, IMO the most likely being the Deceiver on account of his nature.

I don't see the existence of the C'tan Shards as being a nerfing in terms of their power, for they are described in the Codex as possessing near-unlimited power (and they aren't to be sneezed at in gameplay terms either). As I said, the question arises as to why the C'tan haven't wiped out the galaxy (again) if they're supposedly so powerful. This way, the C'tan can be powerful enough to have empowered/cursed the Necrontyr and threatened the Old ones, and yet not an all-destroying force in the current timeline.

An example of this need to balance things is the Void Dragon, whom we discovered in Graham McNeill's Mechanicum had once resided on Earth, only to be defeated by the Emperor (as St George) and imprisoned on Mars, where it is implied he created the Adeptus Mechanicus by inspiring its members with dreams of advanced technology. If the Void Dragon was a full-powered C'tan (of the levels implied in the new Codex), then we have to wonder why he didn't consume the whole planet on his own.

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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-14 05:16am
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Eternal_Freedom wrote:
Does it actually say the Necrons killed the C'Tan? What if they simply went into hiding, and retained their earlier positions (the Nightbringer as the Gim Reaper, the Void Dragon as the Omnissiah etc)?


The Necrons shattered the C'Tan into shards of themselves, then trapped those shards inside of pocket dimensions to make sure they didn't re-connect and become pissed off gods again. The Flayer they apparently killed outright.

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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-14 10:21am
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Started reading my codex over the weekend. Can someone explain to me the difference between Ever Living and Ressurection Protocols? I read the descriptions twice and not sure why the Ever Living rule exists since as best I can tell you still use the Resurection protocols to come back and don't see any other special rule that attaches to Ever Living but it was late last night so I may have missed something obvious.

Also for those bitching about how they changed the character of the Necrons from the last codex there is a section about a faction called the Sundered who essentially had their minds wiped over the long millions of years of sleep so the Necron bodies are controlled by the central processor of the tomb world making them act essentially like the Necrons from the last dex. They are silent, mindless and only interesting in wiping out all life. Unfortunately for some the Blood Angels/Necron fist bumping alliance has been repeated here with the addition of the characterization that the alliance was a reluctant one. Overall the fluff was not as wretched as some Ward efforts and I give him a big thumbs up for taking these guys into an interesting direction.

I think I'll be going onto Ebay and getting some models this week. They just look too gorgeous to pass up. So far I've only read the fluff and only just starting getting into the units but I am getting a very balanced feel from this army much the same impression I got from the Dark Eldar codex.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-14 10:40am
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Quote:
As I said, the question arises as to why the C'tan haven't wiped out the galaxy (again) if they're supposedly so powerful.


The Enslaver plague. The C'tan really don't like warp energy, and when psykers started collapsing the barriers between our universe and the warp at the fall of the Old Ones, and the birth of the Chaos gods, the C'tan and the necrons went into hibernation to let the Chaos pass.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Enslaver

Plus they like people. The deciever refers to them as gratifying subjects.

Quote:
"You are Necrontyr then. You went into stasis to escape a disease."
"No, your language is inefficient. The plague was not a disease and it couldn't harm us, but..."
The thing tilted it's head back as if dreaming of long lost times. "It was killing everything else."


from Codex: Necrons 2002, originally from Let The Galaxy Burn anthology I believe.



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 Post subject: Re: Necron 5th edition codex (SPOILERS) PostPosted: 2011-11-14 11:42am
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Stravo wrote:
Started reading my codex over the weekend. Can someone explain to me the difference between Ever Living and Ressurection Protocols? I read the descriptions twice and not sure why the Ever Living rule exists since as best I can tell you still use the Resurection protocols to come back and don't see any other special rule that attaches to Ever Living but it was late last night so I may have missed something obvious.


If you outright kill a squad you can't resurrect because at least one member of the squad needs to still be alive to make them. So if I were to hit a squad of ten models with ten power weapon attacks and kill all of them you wouldn't get to take your resurrection rolls. Ever Living is different because you can make if regardless of the presence or absence of a squad so if a squad with the IC in it gets wiped the IC model would still get a chance at getting their reanimation protocols.

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