New Redletter Media video about Lucas

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Jim Raynor
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Jim Raynor »

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:
Elfdart wrote:
emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:So I take it you can't name a scene where anyone mentions, infers or out right says the blockade is illegal? You know why that is? Because it doesn't exist. Because the blockade is legal.
I already did, fuckwit. You just chose to ignore it and maintain your wall of ignorance. Now go play in traffic.
No you didn't. You you just repeated the word TRADE like it meant something. You cited scene about the invasion, but not the blockade. You simple made shit up out of thin air. There is nothing in the movie that points to the blockade being illegal it is simply your opinion that it was. So once again I ask you to give me evidence or concede that you have no proof the blockade was illegal.
This whole argument about whether the blockade is illegal is stupid and meaningless. It's pretty funny that you think you're right, and that it even matters.

The opening crawl calls the blockade an alarming chain of events, something that the Senate "endlessly" debates and which forces the Chancellor to secretly deploy Jedi Knights. It's pretty clear that the Senate, for all its corruption, ISN'T really that cool with it. Who the hell makes a military blockade over mere economic matters? Conflicts do flare up over economic factors, but that's the point. The Trade Fed is escalating things and making threats of violence in what was originally a non-violent issue. They're the aggressors. The opening crawl outright calls them "greedy." We're meant to sympathize with the Naboo.

As Elfdart said, the only person in the movie saying the blockade is legal is the head of the Trade Federation. The lying villain. Never mind that legality can be a vague and fluid thing. Especially when within minutes, Darth Sidious flat out says that he can manipulate what is "legal" or not.

Who the hell cares? Oh yeah. You.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

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emersonlakeandbalmer
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by emersonlakeandbalmer »

Elfdart wrote:He's supposed to be a foolish patsy, but even foolish patsies in matinee movies aren't stupid enough to come right out and say:

Look Lord Sidious, you know this is illegal and so do I. If I'm going to go through with this I need your assurance of some kind of political or legal cover.
Yeah who would declare their motivations in a movie scene! I mean I could only think of 3 off the top of my head.
LA Confidential:

BUD
I don't have one. Lefferts looked beat-up Christmas Eve, but didn't act it. How come?
PATCHETT Do you care about criminal matters peripheral to Susan's murder?
BUD No.
PATCHETT Then you wouldn't feel obligated to report them?
BUD That's right.
Wow, offers to help the cop as long as he won’t report other criminal activity. Who needs this stupid scene, just telling him and get to some ACTION!
Dark Knight:

DENT 'What they were gonna do'? You're
the second cop to say that to me. What, exactly, did you think they were going to do?
RAMIREZ I'm sorry- they got me early on. My
mother's medical bills and my-
DENT Don't!
Dent FLIPS his coin.
RAMIREZ I took a little from them- once
they've got you, they keep you. I'm sorry.
Dent looks at his coin. Good side.
120.

DENT Live to fight another day, officer.
Pttth! I don’t care why she worked for the Mob! She’s evil we get it! I can just assume she’s a patsy, why even bother trying to make her a three-dimensional character. It’s a movie about a dude who dresses up as a Bat!
Heat:

HANNA
What do you got?

RAOUL (conspiratorial)
This crew's ripping Porsches out of Orange County. Horrell, Piper and Voight. They're working in the back of a trim shop on Irvine. Somebody was to pay him a visit this weekend, they'd find a metallic blue Turbo...

RAOUL TORENA,
Albert's brother, is a thirty-five-year-old with crew-cut black hair and a Varri Uomo sport jacket. WIDEN To INCLUDE Hanna.

HANNA
...lookin' for me to rid you of
your competition?

RAOUL
I'm a good citizen.
HANNA
You got something to say, or
what?

RAOUL
Mi carnal: if I tell you what I
got to tell you, how do I know
you gonna do what the fuck I just
told you I need to get done?

Hanna's gaze drifts up into Raoul's eyes: it's deadly.

ALBERT (alarmed)
Raoul, Hanna do what he say! That's why I reached for you..

HANNA
I'm not your 'carnal, you little
motherfucker. (beat)
And you 'know' 'cause I say so...
after I hear what you got to tell me!
Gawd! Who cares if they’ll do you a favor, rat out the other crew, admit you're a crimal and get on with it. This movie is like 3 hours long and there isn’t even any laser sword wizards, just two old guys chasing each other! BORING!
A somewhat plausible bad guy will swear up and down that he's not breaking the law, like Nixon when he said he broke no laws because if a President does it, it's not illegal.
Except in confessing that the president can’t break laws he was basically confessing to breaking the law. That is a terrible example.
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Bakustra
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Bakustra »

Jim Raynor wrote: I love your arrogance, even as you play stupid semantic games. Oh no, that stuff about the Gungans and the Naboo coming together wasn't the CENTRAL point of the movie, even though it was but one of SEVERAL things I brought up! I must be soooo "simple."
You most definitely have something wrong with your brain, since you didn't even bother to finish reading my post before jamming your finger down on "reply" and breaking it. Did it hurt, Raynor? Did you have to go to the hospital? Did the nurse laugh when you explained how it happened? Tell me about your mother.
So because the movie supports its point...it somehow doesn't "reinforce" it. LOL.

Obi-Wan openly questions and argues with his mentor. Going so far as to tell his mentor to compromise his beliefs just because he might get a promotion to the Jedi Council by conforming. Qui-Gon remains calm and patient with Obi-Wan throughout all of that, and even praises him. Which is the complete opposite of how Obi-Wan handles disputes in AOTC.

So Qui-Gon trusting Anakin to win the pod race, then arguing with the Jedi Council about training him, doesn't make it a "prominent" theme. Yeah, whatever you say.
See, when you're trying to communicate a theme, you communicate more than one aspect of it. In order to say "believing in the people you mentor is a good thing", you have to show disbelief as a bad thing for it to be truly effective. Instead, we never get a situation where Qui-gon doubts in Obi-wan or Anakin, and so it only presents such belief as a natural thing, rather than as a theme to be communicated, and so it cannot be said to be a theme of The Phantom Menace.
Please. Amidala's entire arc was to stop being a sad powerless princess hoping that the Republic would save her planet, and to get up and save it herself. The movie clearly portrays it as a good thing that she saved Naboo. Palpatine's election doesn't change that fact. He wasn't even revealed as the villain until the last few seconds of the penultimate scene.

I hope you know that the alternative to saving Naboo was to let her people rot and die, while Palpatine STILL milked the situation for sympathy and political gain.
No, the alternative was to let Naboo sit in limbo because the movie never shows any negative effects of the Trade Federation invasion. Which is another criticism your tiny, decayed brain cannot adequately address. PS: Palpatine was revealed as the villain from the very moment his name is mentioned, since he was the Emperor in the OT. Only idiots and people unfamiliar with the previous movie believed otherwise.

But the whole point is that she did what the villain wanted her to do. That cannot be said to be an endorsement of the action, unless you're mentally handicapped in some way.
Don't change the goal posts. Being generic doesn't change the fact that it's still there. BTW, how many generic action movies for kids are about the constraints of tradition, and institutional decay?
You are mentally handicapped, or else dishonest. Having read through the whole post, you are clearly dishonest. So I doubt I'm going to treat your posts with anything regarding seriousness, since you're perfectly willing to chop up sentences to make dubious points. So, uh, go stick your hand into a sausage grinder and indulge in a little cannibalism, you sick freak.
"You're a fucking liar, Raynor", is what I would say if I were indeed as distorted an individual as you. Instead, I will simply say that I have never seen any of RedLetterMedia's reviews of any Star Wars movie, or indeed of anything, and I have no intention of doing so, and that it is a sign of your feeble grasp that you believe that characterizing all of your opponents as components of a hivemind is devastating rather than pathetic.
LOL. So because you don't suck up to RLM, I'm a "liar" for saying something that does apply to other people here?
No, you're a liar now because you lied about what I just said. I have helpfully bolded the critical clause if you're really so conveniently illiterate as to not grasp it, but you'd still be a liar for presenting yourself as a literate individual.

But you miss the point, which is that calling your opponents a hivemind is pathetic. Like, now I can see you, sitting in your computer chair, squeaking out your posts in your prepubescent voice, chuckling at your "jokes", and you lean back, ready to hug yourself at the "hivemind" zinger- that'll get them for sure!!- and your chair falls over. You blubber a little, before righting it and pretending nothing ever happened, like a cat with all the lovability surgically removed.
The exact nature of the taxes is not "character motivation." The movie clearly shows that the Trade Fed thinks that throwing its military might around can allow it to get its way on political and economic matters. Everything they do after the invasion (which comes in the first few minutes) is all about escaping legal consequences. That's also clear. You can understand the movie just fine right there. Most people did.

But nooo, we need more details on the taxes, otherwise the "character motivation" isn't clear. Despite being literally written out onscreen.
The lack of information on the taxes means we have an unclear motivation as to what the Trade Federation wants and how they are going to get it beyond ridiculously broad parameters, and the fact that the three defenders of TPM here can't agree on what the motivation of the Trade Federation is puts the lie to your claims. Maybe you should take this up with Anguirus and Elfdart, seeing as those two are clearly wrong about Trade Federation motives according to your very post. But that would require you to have more than a Cracker-Jack prize version of integrity, now wouldn't it?
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Jim Raynor
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Jim Raynor »

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:The amusing part is that apparently Raynor considers himself an 'average viewer'. Yet, when you look at the reviews for TPM (zomfg, not the RLM one!), what does the 'average viewer' think? Well, it's pretty, but lacks any real depth in plot, characterization, themes and motivation. Rotten Tomatoes gives it a 61%, not horrible, but not very good either. Compare that to the 94% of ANH, 97% of ESB and 79% of RotJ.

While it's not nearly the negatives we've been pouring on it, I'm pretty certain none of us are pretending to be the 'average viewer'. Still, it seems popular opinion is that the movie just wasn't very good , for lighter versions of the reasons we're pointing out.
The funniest thing about internet fanboys is the inflated view they have of themselves. The lack of self awareness, and the belief that whatever they obsess over is normal for the general population. I rolled my cursor over your hyperlink, and I already knew that I was in for a laugh.

Internet posts are not "the average viewer." The average viewers are the bulk of the people who watch the movie in the theater, on TV, or on DVD. Family audiences. The kids. The moms. The grown men who have better things to do then complain about the same movie a decade after that fact. The kind of people who would be flat out disgusted by the crap that passes for "comedy" in the RLM review. If I mentioned "Rotten Tomatoes" to most of my family, they wouldn't even know what it is. The younger twenty-thirtysomethings would, but they don't whine about movies on it. The internet is for FaceBook. THAT'S the average person.

And despite the fact that rating and reviewing movies online isn't what the "average" person does with their time, even the Rotten Tomatoes user ratings aren't terrible. 3.2/5, with 65% of users liking the movie. Oh noes.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Bakustra »

Jim Raynor wrote:
Oni Koneko Damien wrote:The amusing part is that apparently Raynor considers himself an 'average viewer'. Yet, when you look at the reviews for TPM (zomfg, not the RLM one!), what does the 'average viewer' think? Well, it's pretty, but lacks any real depth in plot, characterization, themes and motivation. Rotten Tomatoes gives it a 61%, not horrible, but not very good either. Compare that to the 94% of ANH, 97% of ESB and 79% of RotJ.

While it's not nearly the negatives we've been pouring on it, I'm pretty certain none of us are pretending to be the 'average viewer'. Still, it seems popular opinion is that the movie just wasn't very good , for lighter versions of the reasons we're pointing out.
The funniest thing about internet fanboys is the inflated view they have of themselves. The lack of self awareness, and the belief that whatever they obsess over is normal for the general population. I rolled my cursor over your hyperlink, and I already knew that I was in for a laugh.

Internet posts are not "the average viewer." The average viewers are the bulk of the people who watch the movie in the theater, on TV, or on DVD. Family audiences. The kids. The moms. The grown men who have better things to do then complain about the same movie a decade after that fact. The kind of people who would be flat out disgusted by the crap that passes for "comedy" in the RLM review. If I mentioned "Rotten Tomatoes" to most of my family, they wouldn't even know what it is. The younger twenty-thirtysomethings would, but they don't whine about movies on it. The internet is for FaceBook. THAT'S the average person.

And despite the fact that rating and reviewing movies online isn't what the "average" person does with their time, even the Rotten Tomatoes user ratings aren't terrible. 3.2/5, with 65% of users liking the movie. Oh noes.
Convenient, that you render it impossible for TRUE OPINIONS on movies to be known. You are literally the Richard goddamn Nixon of the internet, babbling about silent majorities.

Good job on declaring that only young people use the internet for things, let alone to communicate their opinions of movies, though!!
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Jim Raynor »

Bakustra, the way you move goalposts and substitute insults in place of real points is hilarious.
See, when you're trying to communicate a theme, you communicate more than one aspect of it. In order to say "believing in the people you mentor is a good thing", you have to show disbelief as a bad thing for it to be truly effective. Instead, we never get a situation where Qui-gon doubts in Obi-wan or Anakin, and so it only presents such belief as a natural thing, rather than as a theme to be communicated, and so it cannot be said to be a theme of The Phantom Menace.
I love how you dispute that it was a prominent theme, because now the movie's required to show the other side of the argument. As if Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council don't present the other side.
No, the alternative was to let Naboo sit in limbo because the movie never shows any negative effects of the Trade Federation invasion.
LOL, your whining about the way something was presented doesn't mean you get to alter the reality of what the movie shows. Naboo is not "in limbo," it's been conquered, with its people killed or herded into camps. The Gungans were forced out of their cities. That all happened, whether you liked it or not. And let's stay on topic here, the question was whether Padme had done something good by saving her planet.
The lack of information on the taxes means we have an unclear motivation as to what the Trade Federation wants
There are taxes on trade routes. The Trade Federation doesn't like them. Wow, what a mystery.
the fact that the three defenders of TPM here can't agree on what the motivation of the Trade Federation is puts the lie to your claims.
Funny, because I see an agreement that they were using military force to get the taxes repealed. We don't care about whatever irrelevant pieces of backstory there are to this. The basic situation is clear and easy to understand.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Jim Raynor »

Bakustra wrote:Convenient, that you render it impossible for TRUE OPINIONS on movies to be known. You are literally the Richard goddamn Nixon of the internet, babbling about silent majorities.

Good job on declaring that only young people use the internet for things, let alone to communicate their opinions of movies, though!!
Love the dramatics and strawmanning. I simply disputed that whining on Rotten Tomatoes represents "the average viewer." Let's cut the nonsense here. You and I both know that the average person, as in most people out there, do not spend their time posting about movies online. Especially movies that are more than a decade old.

I am this close to just writing you off as a troll like that other guy here. Your dramatics, your sentence structure, and your choice of words is just bizarre.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
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emersonlakeandbalmer
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by emersonlakeandbalmer »

Jim Raynor wrote:This whole argument about whether the blockade is illegal is stupid and meaningless. It's pretty funny that you think you're right, and that it even matters.

The opening crawl calls the blockade an alarming chain of events, something that the Senate "endlessly" debates and which forces the Chancellor to secretly deploy Jedi Knights. It's pretty clear that the Senate, for all its corruption, ISN'T really that cool with it. Who the hell makes a military blockade over mere economic matters? Conflicts do flare up over economic factors, but that's the point. The Trade Fed is escalating things and making threats of violence in what was originally a non-violent issue. They're the aggressors. The opening crawl outright calls them "greedy." We're meant to sympathize with the Naboo.

As Elfdart said, the only person in the movie saying the blockade is legal is the head of the Trade Federation. The lying villain. Never mind that legality can be a vague and fluid thing. Especially when within minutes, Darth Sidious flat out says that he can manipulate what is "legal" or not.

Who the hell cares? Oh yeah. You.
First thanks for admitting there is no evidence. Second people who like good storytelling care, you don't care if your villains have motivation, that's totally cool. However, that takes you out of the running when arguing about storytelling, because to you nothing matters unless its a laser sword fight.
Blatant lying. I'm calling people on it over and over again, but they were the ones who actually embarassed themselves by saying those things first.
Someone mentioned it once. You proceeded to bring it up about 800 times, really in almost every single post. Its pathetic really.
Who is bringing anything new to this table? You guys are all still caught up on the taxes like a bunch of obsessive compulsives.
See we're staying on topic, not repeating ourselves on topics no one gives a shit about. You want to bring some real evidence to what the taxes about or do you want to concede the point and admit its never made clear? Want to talk about how the taxes don't matter, cite some examples from other movies where the main villain has no motivation but still makes for effective storytelling and maybe we can get somewhere.
LOL, the same rebuttal that was pretty much a word-for-word response to the RLM review that you probably loved? Wouldn't call that garbage, would you?
Yes, I would. Because you don't understand irony, sarcasm or hyperbole so how could you understand his review?
Wait, aren't you the guy who admitted to trolling?
Read the post where he "admitted" to trolling and then reread my assessment above.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Jim Raynor »

Good thing Lucas literally gave the viewers a cheat sheet, since this is a movie for ten year old kids and all.
The opening crawl wrote:The taxation of trade routes to outlying systems is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a deadly blockade of battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.
Wow, whatever could this be about? The Trade Federation is in a dispute over taxes on trade. They're making a blockade, because of this dispute over taxes on trade. This is some truly deep, esoteric stuff over here. The "motivation" is so very unclear.

And oh yeah, the blockade is "deadly," and the Trade Federation is "greedy." The planet being blockaded is "small."

Gee, I wonder who the bad guy in this is? Who would even ask such a stupid question? Oh yeah, the RLM review and its mindless followers actually DO. How do the Jedi know how to mediate tax issues? There's no invasion going on! Maybe the Naboo committed some kind of atrocity against the Trade Federation! :wtf:
While the Congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events
Taxes don't sound "alarming," but I would guess that a "deadly" military blockade is. See that? The movie ITSELF has already moved beyond the pointless details of the taxes, leaving them in the dust. The focus is on the military conflict. So jarring in a movie titled "Star Wars."

Man, that was all so unclear. I am 100% sure you guys will come back and tell me that it was, too.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Jim Raynor »

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:Someone mentioned it once. You proceeded to bring it up about 800 times, really in almost every single post. Its pathetic really.
They mention each stupid thing once. I can see the same several people will forever be inventing more contrived reasons to be mad at this movie. I bring it up again and again, because people don't take them back.

What's really pathetic is someone saying something as astoundingly, jaw droppingly stupid as hunting wildlife as a means to nullify a blockade, then carrying on like a pseudointellectual who truly understands the craft of filmmaking.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Bakustra »

Jim Raynor wrote:Bakustra, the way you move goalposts and substitute insults in place of real points is hilarious.
Waah! Waah! the manchild cried, hoping to distract people from the fact that he was a liar who distorted people's posts. His mother lost control and smacked him. Everybody applauded. The Life of Jim Raynor, Minor Internet Personality: A Comedy in One Act.
I love how you dispute that it was a prominent theme, because now the movie's required to show the other side of the argument. As if Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council don't present the other side.
In order to show the positives of it, you have to, by necessity, show the negatives of not doing it, or else it's just a thing that happened. Also, they don't, because we never see the consequences of not doing so in this movie. If that doesn't happen, then guess what? It's not a theme of the movie singly!
No, the alternative was to let Naboo sit in limbo because the movie never shows any negative effects of the Trade Federation invasion.
LOL, your whining about the way something was presented doesn't mean you get to alter the reality of what the movie shows. Naboo is not "in limbo," it's been conquered, with its people killed or herded into camps. The Gungans were forced out of their cities. That all happened, whether you liked it or not. And let's stay on topic here, the question was whether Padme had done something good by saving her planet.
You don't actually know what the phrase, "in limbo" means, in or out of context. You think that it's a real place when used in this sense. Tell me, have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger eff- no, you haven't.

There is a piece of jargon amongst science-fiction writers, called the Cozy Catastrophe, which describes stories wherein the world is ending and the protagonist is largely unaffected and uncaring. TPM tells us about how the Gungans were displaced, but never shows us any sign of Naboo being damaged by the attack in any way besides the Gungans moving. Theed is the same. The Futurama episode where they parody Ally McBeal, you know the one? You know how at the end they deliver one last joke about how everything stays the same on TV as the camera pans out over the devastated and burning landscape? That is how you communicate "This planet has been fuckin' invaded." Not with telling, not with telling that is called out as a trick and a lie within the story, but with showing. And that is what the movie fails to do. You're also the one who brought this up, by the way, so that's another lie from you, Raynor.
The lack of information on the taxes means we have an unclear motivation as to what the Trade Federation wants
There are taxes on trade routes. The Trade Federation doesn't like them. Wow, what a mystery.
If it's so simple, explain whether they oppose or support the taxes, using only the evidence in the movie. After all, surely a clear motivation would tell us that.
the fact that the three defenders of TPM here can't agree on what the motivation of the Trade Federation is puts the lie to your claims.
Funny, because I see an agreement that they were using military force to get the taxes repealed. We don't care about whatever irrelevant pieces of backstory there are to this. The basic situation is clear and easy to understand.
There is nothing in the movie that says that they want the taxes revealed, and that's only your interpretation, but since it is you who is saying it, is becomes a lie by definition. Instead, you then proceed to lie about what people are saying by pretending that the question was whether the Trade Federation are villains or not. I hope you get your hands run over by a shopping cart, Raynor. I hope that your hot cocoa gives you first-degree burns on your tongue and leaves you unable to taste anything for days. I hope you get a shitload of papercuts, some of them in the scrotum! I hope that you get richly punished for your difficulties with telling the truth.
Jim Raynor wrote:
Bakustra wrote:Convenient, that you render it impossible for TRUE OPINIONS on movies to be known. You are literally the Richard goddamn Nixon of the internet, babbling about silent majorities.

Good job on declaring that only young people use the internet for things, let alone to communicate their opinions of movies, though!!
Love the dramatics and strawmanning. I simply disputed that whining on Rotten Tomatoes represents "the average viewer." Let's cut the nonsense here. You and I both know that the average person, as in most people out there, do not spend their time posting about movies online. Especially movies that are more than a decade old.

I am this close to just writing you off as a troll like that other guy here. Your dramatics, your sentence structure, and your choice of words is just bizarre.
The fact that the majority of people do not spend their time writing amateur movie reviews does not preclude such reviews from being representative of what people think. The fact that you can whine about grammar and syntax because they're so, so, non-standard and totally not what the high school English class you slept through prepared you for becomes awe-inspiring in the face of "Your dramatics, your sentence structure, and your choice of words is just bizarre." Watch out for the plank in your own eye! (A hint: that was a biblical reference).

But see, you're attempting to render any judgment of the prequel movies' quality impossible, so yes, I will insult and mock you until you either give up or drop dead from a heart attack at the outlandishness of my sentences. Because, to put it bluntly, that's stupid and it's dishonest and it needs to stop before it has really started.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by emersonlakeandbalmer »

Jim Raynor wrote:
emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:Someone mentioned it once. You proceeded to bring it up about 800 times, really in almost every single post. Its pathetic really.
They mention each stupid thing once. I can see the same several people will forever be inventing more contrived reasons to be mad at this movie. I bring it up again and again, because people don't take them back.

What's really pathetic is someone saying something as astoundingly, jaw droppingly stupid as hunting wildlife as a means to nullify a blockade, then carrying on like a pseudointellectual who truly understands the craft of filmmaking.
Do me a favor, could you link to the multiple times someone brought up hunting wildlife? Can you name the person that said this without looking it up? Are they even still posting on this thread? Maybe you could argue the point about how the blockade was affecting the planet since it was never shown in the movie? Do you want me to take it back for "them" since "they" won't do it? Are you a child? Because that's what it sounds like.
Last edited by emersonlakeandbalmer on 2011-10-18 08:17pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by emersonlakeandbalmer »

Jim Raynor wrote:Good thing Lucas literally gave the viewers a cheat sheet, since this is a movie for ten year old kids and all.
The opening crawl wrote:The taxation of trade routes to outlying systems is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a deadly blockade of battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.
Wow, whatever could this be about? The Trade Federation is in a dispute over taxes on trade. They're making a blockade, because of this dispute over taxes on trade. This is some truly deep, esoteric stuff over here. The "motivation" is so very unclear.
Great they are greedy, so the motivation is they want money. How does the blockade get them money? Please provide an answer from the film that explains how they benefit financially from the blockade. If you or Elfdart could simply do this or concede the point we can move on to something else you don't understand about the RLM review.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by emersonlakeandbalmer »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
Jim Raynor wrote: RLM literally says that Qui-Gon was "making shit up" for stating that an invasion was going on
Liar. We went over this a long time ago.
RLM gets so nitpicky as to make criticisms about laser beam visuals that appear for a couple of frames, only he's incompetent at that as well so he shows clips that flat out contradict him and exonerate the movie on his stupid points against it there.
You're the nitpicker. He was talking about the tension in the scene, and looking for some frame by frame visual doesn't address his point.
Not only does Raynor not address the point he's just plan wrong, as I pointed out before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LefM1yEUGk&t=7m2s

From the moment the pilot says “Deflector shield’s up at maximum” they do not get hit again. Now you could argue that the shields were up at max when they went green, but RLM’s edit is not incorrect.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Holy shit, I didn't even realize Raynor had replied to me. I guess I must have triggered his spastic prequationist-defense mechanism. Well let's see what he said...

...

I really don't know what to say there. His 'reply' is just as divorced from reality as pretty much everything else he's saying. Okay, I'll do what I can then:

Raynor claims he's an 'average viewer'. I point out that the 'average viewer' holds a very different opinion than him about TPM, then post a source to back this up. His reply is that angry internet nerds prove nothing.

Right.

First off: Raynor, YOU are an angry internet nerd. I know nothing about you other than what I see of you on the internet, thus by your own logic, you prove absolutely nothing and can be safely disregarded.

Second: As Bakustra has helpfully pointed out, you're an illiterate, pathological liar. You obviously didn't even mouse-over the link I provided to back my point up. For your benefit, I will explain it. It was a link to RottenTomatoes.com. Now yes, as you pointed out, it's an internet site and thus cannot prove anything, just like the internet site we're posting on, and just like the internet person you are: None of it is real or relevant to reality, and thus I'm sitting here talking to voices in my own head. Or maybe I'm just assuming I have the same traits you've been demonstrating.

I got distracted from the point: That website takes a movie, then pulls together a whole lot of reviews about the movie and gives it an aggregate score based on those reviews. Now here's the fantastically awesome part: A lot of those reviews also appear on places *other* than the internet, like newspapers, magazines and TV shows. Holy shit! So not only is your argument that statements on the internet cannot prove anything hilariously self-defeating, but it's also completely inapplicable to the statement that you were replying to!

You are certifiably insane.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Gunhead »

Instead of going back and forth on what motivates the TF in the first movie, could we give some thought to the whole revenge aspect that gets mentioned in the movies and is in the title of the last one.. I mean who exactly wants revenge and for what? Revenge is a great motivator for a movie. Too bad this was basically glossed over, in all three films in fact. Maul wants revenge.. for.. shit I don't know.. Jedi made fun of his spikes?? Stole his lunch money?? No idea. The Sith? Well.. they hate the jedi.. I guess.. and well goddammit there's only room for ONE organization that swings lightsabers and dressed in bathrobes in this galaxy.. Palpy.. Hmm.. I guess he really doesn't want revenge at all. At least he never says anything to indicate he wants revenge, more like he just sees the Jedi as an obstacle to his power.
Dooku? He doesn't strike me as revenge driven, I believe he even offered to spare the jedi at geonosis if they surrendered. Anyway, that would have been a great opportunity to get some revenge.

Anakin turning into Darth Vader, a SITH lord, is a core theme of the prequel trilogy and none of the movies really go into any great depth to the whole Jedi / Sith split and what's it all about.

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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by aussiemuscle308 »

Bakustra wrote:I hope you get your hands run over by a shopping cart, Raynor. I hope that your hot cocoa gives you first-degree burns on your tongue and leaves you unable to taste anything for days. I hope you get a shitload of papercuts, some of them in the scrotum! I hope that you get richly punished for your difficulties with telling the truth.
wow really compelling argument.... wait, no.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

More on Gunhead's point: Using only the movies, explain what a Sith is. The OT is right out because they never even mention the word 'Sith'. The PT... really doesn't help a whole lot either. Are they a species? Well, apparently not because Darth Timefiller is a 'Sith' and definitely not human. A rank? Well, apparently not because their are ranks within the 'Sith'. An ethnic heritage or nation? Apparently not because it seems anyone can join up if an existing member wants them to. A religion? Possibly, but the movies really don't say anything one way or the other and gives no real indication to their beliefs or motivations other than they hate Jedi and want revenge for... umm... something?

Just for fun, a couple really bad books/movies with better characterization and motivations than TPM:

The Twilight Saga
Characterization: Bella's a selfish bitch and Edward's a sociopath.
Evidence: Bella treats everyone around her like crap including her 'best friends' and father in her quest to get in Eddy's pants, and Edward flat out admits on numerous occasions he sees people as, and enjoys treating them like toys.

Prince of Space
Motivation: The chicken men of Krankor want to take over Earth and secure it's more energy-efficient technology.
Evidence: The Phantom's repeated (comical) attempts to take over Earth and the Japanese scientists figuring out exactly what technological edge they have over him.

Space Mutiny
Motivation: Kalgon wants to land on a planet and harvest its resources for personal wealth.
Evidence: He says so himself, then proceeds to sabatogue the Southern Sun, kidnap the captain's daughter and lead a full on mutiny all in an attempt to reach that end.

Manos! "The Hands of Fate"
... all right, you got me there.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Anguirus »

Instead of going back and forth on what motivates the TF in the first movie, could we give some thought to the whole revenge aspect that gets mentioned in the movies and is in the title of the last one.. I mean who exactly wants revenge and for what? Revenge is a great motivator for a movie. Too bad this was basically glossed over, in all three films in fact. Maul wants revenge.. for.. shit I don't know.. Jedi made fun of his spikes?? Stole his lunch money?? No idea. The Sith? Well.. they hate the jedi.. I guess.. and well goddammit there's only room for ONE organization that swings lightsabers and dressed in bathrobes in this galaxy.. Palpy.. Hmm.. I guess he really doesn't want revenge at all. At least he never says anything to indicate he wants revenge, more like he just sees the Jedi as an obstacle to his power.
Ki-Adi-Mundi, Episode I: "The Sith have been extinct for a millennium."
Palpatine, Episode III: "Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy!"
Palpatine, Episode III: "I have waited a long time for this moment, my little green friend!"

We can debate whether this is a good filmmaking strategy or not, but it's pretty clear that Lucas likes to drop the audience into the middle of a story and let them fill in the blanks on their own. That, IMO, is part of why the SW universe feels so vast...and conversely, why it feels so SMALL when EU gets ahold of it. That's also why we have those opening text crawls, without which none of the movies stand on their own too well.

It is instructive to contrast the handling of the Sith with the handling of a certain other plot element of the prequels.

The Sith: we get little dribs and drabs of information. They are clearly ancient enemies of the Jedi. "Always two, there are." The Jedi had reason to believe they were extinct, and know relatively little else about them (hence, "the mystery of the Sith"). The title of the third movie tells us that they want revenge, and since the only people they wind up exterminating are the Jedi...do the math. And then of course, we see what they do...use unique and nasty Force abilities like lightning (and possibly resurrection), plot to overthrow and subvert institutions, seduce Jedi into following them (Dooku and Anakin), and kill Jedi (Qui-Gon, an attempt on Obi-Wan, Order 66).

You sort of put these pieces together and get a coherent picture. Sith: evil wizards, ruled all, Jedi attempted to kill them off but didn't quite pull it off.

Can we prove all of those things beyond a shadow of a doubt? No. Can we (and most small children) reasonably infer them? Yes, on the principle that, even in Star Wars movies, dialogue doesn't get written, filmed, and escape the cutting room without a reason. It's important that the Sith want revenge, that they are the enemies of the Jedi, and that their enemies have good reason to believe they are extinct (and why exactly would THAT be, hmm? Sat by and watched as they all met with accidents, I suppose?).

When we can understand a concept such as this that is not directly explained to us, that's world-building at its best.

Now let us contrast this with...MIDI-CHLORIANS.

The first couple of lines that introduce midi-chlorians are not offensive in the least. Qui-Gon gives some sort of blood test to Anakin, Obi-Wan says "wow there's a lot of them, even Master Yoda doesn't have that many." Just from that, we know exactly what has just transpired: there is some sort of objective way to tell how much of an ass-kicker with the Force you are, and Anakin kicks more ass than motherfucking Yoda.

But then, for some reason, Lucas or some other dingbat decided that the slow kids could piece together the Sith and Nute Gunray's fiendish complexity on their own, but they needed a sort of garbled explanation of the endosymbiont hypothesis in order to understand the previous line. So he has Qui-Gon explain it to Anakin in such a way so that everyone could get outraged about how the Force comes from these sci-fi whatsits. We should count ourselves lucky that he didn't CG them up and show them to us.

So...am I saying that the Sith couldn't have been explained a little better? No, one can conceive of a SW prequel that does explain them and for that or other reasons is a better film. But the Sith don't really NEED an explanation either...they are archetypal evil wizards. There is certainly enough background to conclude that the Jedi extinctified the Sith (or at least pointed and laughed while something else extinctified them) and that's why Palpatine is practically having an orgasm when he's fighting Yoda.

Star Wars movies are not psychological thrillers*. Any more than The Lord of the Rings is one. Is it ok to have everyone's motivations (ancestries, final fates, etc.) buried in an appendix, long as they aren't "EU"? Because even with several exposition-only chapters, the mere fact that the hobbits are the viewpoint characters means that we don't really get much of a glimpse into why Aragorn, Saruman, Sauron, and Morgoth (who isn't even mentioned in the main story) do what they do. Why are the orcs evil? They don't seem to get much out of the whole deal. Why did the Balrog kill the dwarves? Did the dwarves kill his sister when they delved too deep?

Genre matters. Genre is why some flaws matter more than others in different sorts of films, and it's why not all movies ask and answer the same sorts of questions. Before this thread turned into another typical SD.net personal shitfit, it was actually getting into some pretty interesting territory (what are the movie's themes, how effectively did it get them across, was it too sanitized to have any impact...). I also think it could be interesting to speculate how the plot could have been cleared up (I don't think simply removing the word "taxation" from the film would accomplish this).

*Interestingly enough, the novelization of Episode III is a decent psychological thriller, and goes to show how the same story with different mediums and target audiences can feel vastly different.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by DudeGuyMan »

Destructionator XIII wrote:rawrglefrawgle
Hello Destructionator XIII! I can't be bothered to read every single post in this ridiculously long thread, but as a neutral observer posting like a month after it's creation, I just wanted to point out that on the first page of this thread, you really looked like an asshole and got badly schooled. It was almost painful to watch, the way you jumped in with all this venom that you were too ineloquent to express in any way but saying "fucking idiot" over and over like a robot, then got raped up the ass with logic.

Thanks for reading! :lol:

PS: My favorite Plinkett moment was during the ROTS review, the part where Palpatine crowns himself Emperor, when he criticizes the fact that even "super genius Padamay" was fooled, conspicuously ignoring the "So this is how liberty dies!" line from her that capped the scene.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Channel72 »

Anguirus wrote:We can debate whether this is a good filmmaking strategy or not, but it's pretty clear that Lucas likes to drop the audience into the middle of a story and let them fill in the blanks on their own. That, IMO, is part of why the SW universe feels so vast...and conversely, why it feels so SMALL when EU gets ahold of it. That's also why we have those opening text crawls, without which none of the movies stand on their own too well.
I would argue that the small bit of exposition provided by Obi Wan regarding the Jedi in A New Hope actually imbues the SW universe with a sense of vastness and great antiquity, whereas the lack of any real exposition regarding the Sith in the Prequels simply comes off as more plot incoherence, and less reason to actually care about anything that's happening on-screen.
Anguirus wrote:Star Wars movies are not psychological thrillers*. Any more than The Lord of the Rings is one. Is it ok to have everyone's motivations (ancestries, final fates, etc.) buried in an appendix, long as they aren't "EU"? Because even with several exposition-only chapters, the mere fact that the hobbits are the viewpoint characters means that we don't really get much of a glimpse into why Aragorn, Saruman, Sauron, and Morgoth (who isn't even mentioned in the main story) do what they do. Why are the orcs evil? They don't seem to get much out of the whole deal. Why did the Balrog kill the dwarves? Did the dwarves kill his sister when they delved too deep?
I think you're still missing the point. The motivations of LOTR villains are extremely straightforward: the bad guys just want power and control. However, unlike TPM, all of their actions (e.g. creating armies, attacking cities, attempting to recover the ring, etc.) follow from that motivation. But in TPM, even though we know the Trade Federation is motivated by greed, we don't know how their actions further their greedy self-interest. They blockade and invade a planet, but we never know what they get out of doing so because the plot is so poorly constructed.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Anguirus »

I would argue that the small bit of exposition provided by Obi Wan regarding the Jedi in A New Hope actually imbues the SW universe with a sense of vastness and great antiquity, whereas the lack of any real exposition regarding the Sith in the Prequels simply comes off as more plot incoherence, and less reason to actually care about anything that's happening on-screen.
Ok, but...why is that? We get about equivalent amounts of exposition, though it is more spread-out regrading the Sith. So this is a subjective feeling, which I can answer with my subjective feeling that I instantly understood who the Sith are and what they do when I first saw the movie. And all I knew about them beforehand was that Darth Vader and an EU guy named Exar Kun were Lords of the Sith. The concept made more sense after Episode I, not less.
I think you're still missing the point. The motivations of LOTR villains are extremely straightforward: the bad guys just want power and control. However, unlike TPM, all of their actions (e.g. creating armies, attacking cities, attempting to recover the ring, etc.) follow from that motivation. But in TPM, even though we know the Trade Federation is motivated by greed, we don't know how their actions further their greedy self-interest. They blockade and invade a planet, but we never know what they get out of doing so because the plot is so poorly constructed.
No, I'm not missing the point.

Nute Gunray: wants money.
Darth Sidious: wants power
Tarkin: wants power
Sauron: wants power
Balrog: ???
Orc: ???

Please describe to me how any of the ??? entries' actions follow from their motivation?

Now look at the section I bolded. You know, and I know, exactly what the TF's motivation is. Now your second sentence is what I've been saying all along, that TPM has a flimsy Excuse Plot. It's a plot that is meant to be extremely simple, but also meant to SEEM like it arose from a complicated political situation, and it didn't quite hold together logically on its own.

Although, when you get right down to it, the specific objection that has been harped on for...fuck me, 17 pages, is a lack of background exposition that could have been solved with a single cleverly written sentence of dialogue, in one of the early scenes of the Coruscant sequence.

So really, our point of disagreement may as well be that you (I guess?) think the lack of this sentence is a cause of TPM being a bad movie, while I am slightly more charitable and think it's more like a symptom of it being a mediocre movie.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a character being a cipher, or with that particular character being a cipher, that's what I'm getting at. Not all works must flesh everybody out. The Balrog's motivation is he's a big evil thing. Nute Gunray's motivation is he's a slimy arch-capitalist with no scruples and a gullible streak.
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.
Except I was a small child in 1999, and so were all of my friends. :lol:
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Anguirus »

Oh, and the challenge is still on for someone to make me care whether Gunray is taxing more or being taxed less. It might take some non-consensual surgery, however.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by Cesario »

Anguirus wrote:Oh, and the challenge is still on for someone to make me care whether Gunray is taxing more or being taxed less. It might take some non-consensual surgery, however.
Why should anyone make you care about anything?

I'm glad you enjoyed the prequels.

It's unfortunate that you could do nothing to improve my enjoyment of them by explaining the bits that I found unclear, but that's not your fault. The information I was seeking simply wasn't there to begin with.
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Re: New Redletter Media video about Lucas

Post by emersonlakeandbalmer »

Anguirus wrote:
I think you're still missing the point. The motivations of LOTR villains are extremely straightforward: the bad guys just want power and control. However, unlike TPM, all of their actions (e.g. creating armies, attacking cities, attempting to recover the ring, etc.) follow from that motivation. But in TPM, even though we know the Trade Federation is motivated by greed, we don't know how their actions further their greedy self-interest. They blockade and invade a planet, but we never know what they get out of doing so because the plot is so poorly constructed.
No, I'm not missing the point.

Nute Gunray: wants money.
Darth Sidious: wants power
Tarkin: wants power
Sauron: wants power
Balrog: ???
Orc: ???

Please describe to me how any of the ??? entries' actions follow from their motivation?

Now look at the section I bolded. You know, and I know, exactly what the TF's motivation is. Now your second sentence is what I've been saying all along, that TPM has a flimsy Excuse Plot. It's a plot that is meant to be extremely simple, but also meant to SEEM like it arose from a complicated political situation, and it didn't quite hold together logically on its own.

Although, when you get right down to it, the specific objection that has been harped on for...fuck me, 17 pages, is a lack of background exposition that could have been solved with a single cleverly written sentence of dialogue, in one of the early scenes of the Coruscant sequence.

So really, our point of disagreement may as well be that you (I guess?) think the lack of this sentence is a cause of TPM being a bad movie, while I am slightly more charitable and think it's more like a symptom of it being a mediocre movie.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a character being a cipher, or with that particular character being a cipher, that's what I'm getting at. Not all works must flesh everybody out. The Balrog's motivation is he's a big evil thing. Nute Gunray's motivation is he's a slimy arch-capitalist with no scruples and a gullible streak.
The orcs just like the Stormtroopers don't require the larger motivation the main character/villain needs. I don't want to know the robots motivation on Naboo either, but I do want to know those controlling them. The orcs work for Sauron, they are foot soldiers. The TF is not a foot soldier at least not in TPM because they are the villians for the main conflict. It would be like if no explanation was given for Saruman's actions and his wanting the ring (and power) for himself. Its been a while since I've seen the movie but I believe this was still in the film. Even if it's not all of his actions to help Sauron still help him obtain power. The actions of the TF do not seem to get them money.

The balrog is another story. I find it to be a force of nature, the cipher if you will. His presence has been built up by Gandolf so when he appears we understand it is a great danger and a great evil. Similar to Maul in that sense only done so much better.

The 17 pages of harping is sadly wasted trying to explain why this "tax" issue is just one example of bad story telling (it may not bother some people but I real don't know how its been argued as anything other than bad writing). It isn't that the movie would somehow be good with one line explaining taxes, but rather that with one line Lucas could easily fix a glaring issue with his story.
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