Asian Fantasy vs European Fantasy?

[Ford Prefect]

European fantasy has the only multi-universe, multi-dimensional and multi-multiverse spanning entity. So they win by default as they have the only entitiy able to survive all the MAD that will be flung around.

You mean Brahman????

First, cannon fodder infantry: Europe wins. In a real contest

There's an old Chinese saying which goes something like 'first is courage, second is strength, third is skill'. It doesn't matter how good your steel is if the men wielding it are cowards or undisciplined. Shit, didn't you listen to Robe Vader in Conan?

[Alyrium Denryle]

There's an old Chinese saying which goes something like 'first is courage, second is strength, third is skill'. It doesn't matter how good your steel is if the men wielding it are cowards or undisciplined. Shit, didn't you listen to Robe Vader in Conan?

While this is true, neither chinese nor dark age armies are professionals. Most european mythology where armies are featured that I know well, however, is norse or anglo-saxon. You wont find cowardice or poor discipline in those armies very easily.

[Shroom Man 777]

Chinese dragons have been known to swallow the sun. The sun's output is 3.86×10^26 J (or 3.86 × 10^17 gigajoules) per second. Assuming all the iron weapons of Europe's armies were condensed into a spherical mass of iron akin to that of an asteroid, I'd say... yeah, unless the dragon's stomach linings are NDF chain reaction packing crates, your weapons will count for shit.

QED. Concession accepted. Also, Lucas was heavily reliant on Asian mythology and mysticism for Star Wars. Whereas obviously Trek has Euro-centric mythologies with "what does God want with a starship". So...

(I don't see any numbers and quantifications in this thread, BTW.)

[Ford Prefect]

While this is true, neither chinese nor dark age armies are professionals.

Exactly what is your standard of 'professional'?

[Thanas]

While this is true, neither chinese nor dark age armies are professionals. Most european mythology where armies are featured that I know well, however, is norse or anglo-saxon. You wont find cowardice or poor discipline in those armies very easily.

Yeah, you would. I'd take a frank or Byzantine army over them any day.

[Alyrium Denryle]

While this is true, neither chinese nor dark age armies are professionals.

Exactly what is your standard of 'professional'?

A soldier paid a wage, and where soldiery is a primary profession. For example, in Anglo-Saxon england, King Harolds army consisted of a core of his professional troops, his Huscarls, and semi-professional feudal troops. Freerdmen. These guys were obliged to serve in harolds army if called between the spring planting and fall harvest. Because of internecine warfare, they were not professionals as such, but were over and above what peasant conscripts would be. There were other soldiers involved. Peasant levies for example, often serving as skirmishers as I recall.

Yeah, you would. I'd take a frank or Byzantine army over them any day.

So would I, but still nothing to be sneered at for the time, and if they get into a shield wall they will hold position well enough (unless you trick them with a false retreat... Poor Harold). Doing that when Berserkers are screaming at you and charging at the front of a Boar's Snout is no mean feat.

[Thanas]

European fantasy has the only multi-universe, multi-dimensional and multi-multiverse spanning entity. So they win by default as they have the only entitiy able to survive all the MAD that will be flung around.

You mean Brahman????

Even they cannot survive the collapse of the universe.

(I am not really serious if that wasn't clear, btw)

So would I, but still nothing to be sneered at for the time, and if they get into a shield wall they will hold position well enough (unless you trick them with a false retreat... Poor Harold). Doing that when Berserkers are screaming at you and charging at the front of a Boar's Snout is no mean feat.

You really overvalue them in my opinion. Personal retinues of strongmen do not a professional army make. Besides, if your idea of disciplined is "form shield wall and hold" then any army from antiquity could be considered professional. If you want real professional soldiers you have to look to the east (Arabs and Byzantines) and to varying degrees to the Italian city states and the Franks. Aside from those, no Army of northern Europe deserves to be called professional.

[Shroom Man 777]

Jesus Christ, we're talking about mythical and fantastic awesome things and instead of talking about the awesomeness of gods and monsters and deities and Ramayana ding dongs, and you guys end up segueing into the merits of European plate armor in comparison to Japanipponomohippopotanimunimu samurai swordus and daikatanas? Argh!

Asia also gets Arabic and, heck, even parts of Russian fantasy even. If we go into mythologies, by virtue of being ridiculously huge, Asia would have the edge quantity-wise in terms of gods to throw at Europe. Every Chinese person's ancestor spirit is gonna be busting out kung fu moves, and if their living children burn paper mache firearms for them, then your medieval European army is gonna get mowed down by dead Chinese guys with AK-47s.

EDIT:

I am not seeing calculations. I've already submitted mathematical evidence of Chinese dragon capabilities, and posit that sun-eating Chinese dragons' turbo-breaths can easily overwhelm any European dragon's deflector shields.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You really overvalue them in my opinion.

Possibly

Personal retinues of strongmen do not a professional army make.

While this is true and the army is not professionals, engaging in pitched battle is still what these people do for a living. Sure, they are not mercenaries or serving a 25 year term of service with a rigid chain of command, but calling personal and permanent feudal retainers non-professional, and using that as a term of devaluation.. I dont know. Maybe there needs to be some sort of multi-axis delineation.

Besides, if your idea of disciplined is "form shield wall and hold" then any army from antiquity could be considered professional.

Disciplined does not necessarily equal professional, and there is the matter of context to consider. In the matter under consideration (whether they will break and run, or were unskilled) they had plenty of battlefield discipline, and more than sufficient skill. That they did not have an organizational structure like a roman or modern military and did not necessarily march in lock step is not necessarily a mark against them in this case.

[Thanas]

While this is true and the army is not professionals, engaging in pitched battle is still what these people do for a living.

So did all the guys in the thirty years war and only a few of the armies (tercios, Swedish/French troops and Wallenstein guys) were in any way professional. Simply making your living by the sword makes you at best a very good individual soldier. Also note that these are not mercenary companies like the black band who engaged in pitched battle continously. The vast majority of the Saxon army was composed of levies of free farmers.

The housecarls just do not matter that much numerically, especially not when going up against Chinese troops.

Note that there are several scholars even doubting that the housecarls of Canute and Harald numbered that much numerically. The truth is we do not know how many of them there actually were and if there was any relationship between them and the thegn. See the first article for a discussion about this.

Disciplined does not necessarily equal professional, and there is the matter of context to consider. In the matter under consideration (whether they will break and run, or were unskilled) they had plenty of battlefield discipline, and more than sufficient skill.

That depends very much on the battle, don't you think? The point is that unlike armies that kept permanent drill and had a manual of arms/minimum standards the performance varied. True, the Byzantine forces were dominated in battles as well, but there were at least some minimum standards, generals being schooled in the art of war etc. In the same case, the French actually specified the bare minimum of equipment and held common drills. In case of the Saxons, it seems to be more of a "I'm tough and I can fight, so enlist me" situation.

[Majin Gojira]

I am not seeing calculations. I've already submitted mathematical evidence of Chinese dragon capabilities, and posit that sun-eating Chinese dragons' turbo-breaths can easily overwhelm any European dragon's deflector shields.

And it encounters Fenris, the sun and moon devouring wolf

Mostly because the conception of what the sun is varies greatly from mythology to mythology and generally, it is conisdered smaller than we know it to be today and closer.

Hey, that's be interesting to calculate. Using a medival or otherwise mythologically contemporary model of the solar system, what would the power output be for the sun?

[Ford Prefect]

Even they cannot survive the collapse of the universe.

(I am not really serious if that wasn't clear, btw)

Don't worry, I'm just teasing.

The housecarls just do not matter that much numerically, especially not when going up against Chinese troops.

It's probably worth noting that in the Warring States period, conscript armies did go up against experience noble toughguys ... and won because they had superior coordination, discipline, morale and organisation. Conscription often happened on the basis of a minimum standard, anyway. Wei, for example, apparently required their conscripts to be able to march fifty kilometres a day while in full armour, carrying a crossbow, sword spear, fifty arrows and three days rations. Tang, Song and Late Han armies were at least predominantly (or all) volunteer. Wei and Jin used a system where soldiering was a hereditary profession. The Fubing system gave commanders a plot of land and a thousand men to farm and drill with, though it's my understanding that the Fubing system was not sustainable over long periods of time.

[Thanas]

One reason I find Chinese Armies so hard to evaluate against European/Arab troops is that these met only a few times and when battle happened at all, defeat/victories were more dependant on external factors rather than troop quality (See for example the Talas campaign).

[Ford Prefect]

I'm not much of a historian (I just exhausted almost all my knowledge of Chinese military history in that post lol), so I wouldn't really know. I mean, at the very least they had a highly developed notion of 'military science' which originated in the Warring States period and grew from there.

[Panzersharkcat]

Every Chinese person's ancestor spirit is gonna be busting out kung fu moves, and if their living children burn paper mache firearms for them, then your medieval European army is gonna get mowed down by dead Chinese guys with AK-47s.

Burn paper Star Destroyers or a Death Star. Even if they don't actually function like in the movies, they're big enough to make projectiles that will make their enemies look up at the sky and say, "Oh, crap."

[PainRack]

Which fantasy comic / book had Yue Fei fighting the super powered Jin troops? I would be interested in that, although we know unless they do a total alternate history, Yue Fei will get executed by the corrupt emperor.

The actual Yue Fei novelisation.

Yue Fei Zhen Zhuang.

You know things are wonky when the comic/fantasy version of Yue Fei is actually less fantasical than the historical novel.

[PainRack]

Look, these are very very diverse genres and it is very difficult to generalize across them. I have seen people talk about both literature and actual folklore in this thread. Literature is completely non-comparable. The level of powers between authors varies so much, the argument is pointless. There are some things that can be said about actual folklore though.

Nitpick here. Canonisation of the Deities, Journey to the West Sun Wu Kung are both novels. Yes, they were so immensely popular that they became part of the actual pantheons/religious canon but they DID start off as novels.

First, cannon fodder infantry: Europe wins. In a real contest, most of the fighting and holding of territory will be done by european infantry, which had better steel, and more of it.

Not in fantasy world folklore. Both Japan and China literature fielded heavy plate troops. This is if you ignore Zhuge Liang and his battles against the barbarians, which utilised reed armour which were so tough, they turned aside iron/steel weapons at will.

Also, I believe it is the Asian fantasy which has more stories fielding the mass fielding of magic chariots/carpets/etc. Zhuge Liang carts for example were self propelled in the novelisation.

This is before we go into the more fantasical parts such as the Legend of Zu. Entire flying armies anyone?

Once we consider the folklore, I am not really sure. Asian dragons may have been viewed as gods, but from what I remember of Asian folklore, the things they actually do are not a whole lot different from the european variety. Depending on the story, you get various forms of shapeshifting, transforming others, cursing of people. Euro-dragons tend to do a bit more despoiling.

Try again. Chinese dragons controlled the weather and climate. This is ignoring the more esoteric asian forms which also controlled geography.

Epic heroes? Well, I dont know much about asian epic heroes, so perhaps someone spelling a few of them out to me would be a good starting point.

Guan Yu. He's an ACTUAL god now.
Hell, the three brothers are all canonised gods, its just that Guan Yu is the one who's worshipped by both the police AND the Criminals.
He turn aside zombies, ghosts, and in a very epic B grade movie, the three brothers possess the vampire doctor to beat back this Western vampire king.(My Vampire Doctor).

[PainRack]

European fantasy has the only multi-universe, multi-dimensional and multi-multiverse spanning entity. So they win by default as they have the only entitiy able to survive all the MAD that will be flung around.

That actually exists in chinese/japanese fantasy as well. The traditional fantasy sources, both modern and ancient depict heaven as being a seperate dimension than earth. Then there's also the pocket universes and etc in which heroes withdraw to master elite skills to defeat the villian go into....

I like to point out that Chinese sorcerors are usually more "potent" than Western magicians/wizards. Wizards, especially modern day fantasy influenced by D&D can accomplish great feats, but have more limits placed on them. Chinese sorcerors can do more stuff, but on the other hand, their powers can be more easily defeated. For example, a wizard blowing fireballs across the entire army can't unleashed that many fireballs before he's exhausted. Jiu Yin Zhen Fa, Xuan Kun Da Mo Yi, or even the Zu Heavenly Shining Mirror can......

Seriously, even basic Qi techniques don't seem to have an actual usuage limit placed on them and the user can just use them over and over again...


On the other hand, Westerners don't get nerfed so easily by the application of black dog blood or some other sthick.

[PainRack]

We HAVE forgotten something though....

Villians.

A hero is matched against the villians he have to face and on the basis of this though, Western folklore beats Asiatic folklore in terms of power output anytime.
Sure, you have the fillipino baby blood sucking ghost, pontinaks, vampire/zombie, the whole gamut of beats from the fertile imagination of a host of peoples, but they just don't match up against the traditional vampire, lich, or undead necromancer.

At best, you have the Invinicible of the East but she/he isn't THAT superpowered when compared to the supernatural villians of the West.

You have to go to very modern interations to get equivalent foes. Just look at the old Mr Vampire movies to get an inkling of this. That was the "standard" supernatural foe, that and lady in white sporting long hair....

[mr friendly guy]

I am not seeing calculations. I've already submitted mathematical evidence of Chinese dragon capabilities, and posit that sun-eating Chinese dragons' turbo-breaths can easily overwhelm any European dragon's deflector shields.

And it encounters Fenris, the sun and moon devouring wolf

Mostly because the conception of what the sun is varies greatly from mythology to mythology and generally, it is conisdered smaller than we know it to be today and closer.

Hey, that's be interesting to calculate. Using a medival or otherwise mythologically contemporary model of the solar system, what would the power output be for the sun?

Ha. Chinese mythology had 10 divine birds each capable of producing the energy of the sun. When they decided to rise at the same time such that the heat screwed up crops (assuming they all took a different orbital pathway or else people would die from the sheer heat), they were killed by the divine archer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houyi

[Shroom Man 777]

I presuppose that the Divine Archer's arrows are Q-balls that if he shot them into the sun, would slowly cause it to die, and hence we need to send an elite team of Michelle Yeoh, Cillian Murphy and Captain America on a giant umbrella mirror-ship to undo the Divine Archer's damage.

[PainRack]

I presuppose that the Divine Archer's arrows are Q-balls that if he shot them into the sun, would slowly cause it to die, and hence we need to send an elite team of Michelle Yeoh, Cillian Murphy and Captain America on a giant umbrella mirror-ship to undo the Divine Archer's damage.

Can we send Chrissie chau from

instead?

Hmm... Maybe dressed up in this superhero outfit instead:D



Also, it makes me sad that your storyline was actually echoed in an actual ATV drama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Date_with_a_Vampire_II

Interestingly, all I remembered was the ghost-catcher hemline creeping up as the series progressed:D That and the abused version of the phoenix king stance.