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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-05 09:01pm
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Korto wrote:
However, I believe it is assumed for these things that both sides are aware of the others abilities, therefore the Empire knows about cloaks. To assume they wont be expecting such a ploy is to assume they are stupid, and as someone said in a book I read "Any plan that relies upon the stupidity of your opponent for success is a bad plan"

3) So before all this we send in a "traitor", maybe from the well-loved Section 31. He will have as full as is reasonable information about (1) and (2) for a well-placed starfleet officer, which he wants to sell for money and power in the new government. He also has extensive knowledge about the Klingon, Cardassian, Romulan, etc, fleets and locations, (more on this later). Ideally he's a shapeshifter, or at least some other race with a natural edge for espionage. His actual job is to somehow destroy the wormhole from the Empire side, seizing a ship, rigging one on a routine pass through to explode, something. He doesn't know about...


Implausible. Surely the Empire will run background checks. Oh, and put security around their ships. If there's a Force-sensative agent in the fleet, they may see through it too.

If you get Odo to do it, there may be a very slim chance of success, just because of how damn versatile his shapeshifting abilities are. Its still a hell of a long shot though.

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4) A number more of cloaked ships, coming in on different vector, including a few hiding amongst the battle fleet in the hope of using the fire and fury of the battle to blind any ways of detecting cloaked ships (risking getting hit by a stray turbo laser or phasor, but what can you do?)


Not a bad idea. I would try to secure Klingon/Romulan collaboration in such an attack.

Quote:
5) Any phase-cloaked ships able to be put into space. It may be a prototype, it may not work, but lets give it a shot. It may be best to send these soon after the battle, when the Empire assumes that's it for a little while and they're cleaning up.


No, send them in during the battle.

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Meanwhile
6) Do attempt to approach Q, and any others of these demi-god races. Who knows? Maybe Q would like to see Picard dance naked down the main street.


We could also try persuading Janeway to sleep with him in exchange for closing the wormhole.

Quote:
7) Prepare for the aftermath. Even if we win, Star Fleet will be almost destroyed, something that the Cardassians, Romulans, etc, are sure to notice. This is why the "traitor" gave info on their fleets (the stranded Empire ships might want to destroy the threat to themselves).


Given that the "cloaked ship" part of the plan requires the help of some of these allies, that seems a poor way to repay them.

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However, the crews on the initial (doomed) armada were as skeleton as possible, and as many veteran officers and crew replaced with novices as possible without lowering performance too much to be credible.


Is that wise?

We want our best crews for this mission, not a bunch of Ensigns fresh from the Academy.

Sisko as the CO, or if this is after he's gone, Admiral Ross or Picard. Enterprise leading the attack. Veteran Borg/Dominion War crews.

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-05 09:24pm
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Depends on whether the Feds know they're royally screwed before they go in. If they think they actually stand a chance, yes using their best crews makes sense. But if they realize the fleet is only a distraction with a likely 100% loss ratio and no chance of doing any real damage, putting their best and bravest on them would be stupid.



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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-05 09:33pm
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Batman wrote:
Depends on whether the Feds know they're royally screwed before they go in. If they think they actually stand a chance, yes using their best crews makes sense. But if they realize the fleet is only a distraction with a likely 100% loss ratio and no chance of doing any real damage, putting their best and bravest on them would be stupid.


The main fleet may be a diversion, but it still needs to be able to put on a good show and be able to take advantage of any opportunity. Suppose the Empire makes a mistake, and the diversionary fleet has a clear shot at the wormhole?

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-06 12:47am
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Metahive wrote:
The question is how could they administer the biological agent most effectively? IMHO the biggest chance of success would have an infiltrator tainting the food rations onboard a starship, maybe on a supply freighter. Does anyone know how tight imperial security in this regard is?

Wow! I think we just found an actual legitimate reason why an ISD would carry six year's worth of food!



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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-06 04:38am
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Is "6-years worth of food" the standard ISD loadout or just the maximum storage capacity? No matter what, there are smaller ships within the imperial fleet that could be more vulnerable to such a ploy. One mission of Imperial Pursuit, the mission pack for the old X-Wing DOS game involved the Rebels supplying poisoned grain to the Empire in a plot to frame an imperial governor, so there's a certain precedent.



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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-06 10:33am
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Metahive wrote:
Is "6-years worth of food" the standard ISD loadout or just the maximum storage capacity? No matter what, there are smaller ships within the imperial fleet that could be more vulnerable to such a ploy. One mission of Imperial Pursuit, the mission pack for the old X-Wing DOS game involved the Rebels supplying poisoned grain to the Empire in a plot to frame an imperial governor, so there's a certain precedent.

I don't know about other sources, but the original WEG Sourcebook (which I'm fairly certain is the first appearence of the statistic) only said "Consumables: 6 years" Your guess is as good as mine, I would say that implies they actually carry that much.

/shrugs
They do have a 36,000 metric ton cargo capacity.

But damn that precedent... evil Rebel Scum...



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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 06:36am
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Raising another point that is worth considering (to help make good tactics)- given Palpatine's personality, how is he likely to fight such a war? More importantly, given the number of tactical and strategic idiocies he made in the war against the Rebellion what sort of blunders would he be likely to make in a war against the Federation?

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 06:51am
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Carinthium wrote:
Raising another point that is worth considering (to help make good tactics)- given Palpatine's personality, how is he likely to fight such a war? More importantly, given the number of tactical and strategic idiocies he made in the war against the Rebellion what sort of blunders would he be likely to make in a war against the Federation?

What idiocies, exactly? Though it's commonly held that he underestimated the Rebellion (which is somewhat fair, given the ease with which he could have had them curbstomped), the Rebels only succeeded with a large helping of dumb luck.

Keep in mind also, the only reason that the Emperor wanted to make a show out of detroying the Rebels (instead of outright slaughtering them) was in his effort to turn Luke to the Dark Side. Is there any reason he would make such a show of destroying the Federation, rather than simply shitting on them from a great height?



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"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 09:10am
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Other idiocies on Palpatine's part (or possibly the Empire as a whole) include the AT-AT (which, given it's lack of digging capabilities, flight etc fails to live up to it's name removing one possible defence), and large numbers of super-weapons.

There are also other decisions which, though not technically idiotic, would give the Federation some degree of advantage- if he hadn't turned, for example, Darth Vader (not the greatest of commanders) would likely be placed in charge. The Empire has also demonstrated an inability to concentrate a large portion of its forces at the decisive point (or any point) despite the existence of hyperdrive.

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 11:16am
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Carinthium wrote:
Other idiocies on Palpatine's part (or possibly the Empire as a whole) include the AT-AT (which, given it's lack of digging capabilities, flight etc fails to live up to it's name removing one possible defence), and large numbers of super-weapons.

Battle of Jabiim, Battle of Orion IV, Battle of Ghorman, deployments on Corellia and Chandrilla, the attack on New Alderaan- care to name any instances where AT-ATs were deployed in combat, and didn't stomp the fuck out of whatever they were put up against? Their track record says more than their slightly inaccurate name.
More to the point, please explain how the AT-AT is a disadvantage to the Empire against the Federation, with their mighty nonexistant heavy mechanised ground forces?

Carinthium wrote:
There are also other decisions which, though not technically idiotic, would give the Federation some degree of advantage- if he hadn't turned, for example, Darth Vader (not the greatest of commanders) would likely be placed in charge.
Based on your say-so? Please do your homework before making assumptions. And think about how stupid said assumptions are- had Vader not turned, he wouldn't have killed the Emperor. In order for Vader to have survived, the DSII must not have been destroyed, thus Palpatine would still be alive. Is this what you call evidence of Palpy's stupidity? It demonstrates your own far more succintly...

Carinthium wrote:
The Empire has also demonstrated an inability to concentrate a large portion of its forces at the decisive point (or any point) despite the existence of hyperdrive.
Examples?

I'd also be interested to know how Imperial tactics are going to play a major role in an Empire vs UFP scenario? Given that a single sector fleet outguns most (if not all) of the Federation, the Empire doesn't need tactics any more complex than "HERP DERP SHOOT THOSE HIPPIES!!!1!" to win. The best the Federation can hope for is to force a stalemate, and even that is difficult.

Based on canonical evidence, Palpy would most likely send an expiditionary force to set up shop in the MW (much as he did in the Unknown Regions of the GFFA). He would also likely use a commander that he knew was capable for such a mission (as he did with Thrawn), rather than someone like Tarkin, who, while not a genious, could be trusted to rule with an iron fist.



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"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 11:40am
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Poor man's edit: Forgot to say two things-

1) Palpatine was amassing large numbers of superweapons to ensure victory in the Vong War- how does this demonstrate his stupidity?

2) How does anything you mentioned support the point you were trying to make? (i.e. Palpatine being an idiot)
a) He didn't design AT-ATs.
b) Superweapons were a sound investment for the future.
c) You clearly have no idea how the Empire was structured if you think Vader would have been left in charge.
d) The Imperial Starfleet's prime concern is local policing of their sectors. Abandoning their respective posts to show up to *whatever example it was you failed to give* would leave large portions of the galaxy unattended.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 06:53pm
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Carinthium wrote:
Other idiocies on Palpatine's part (or possibly the Empire as a whole) include the AT-AT (which, given it's lack of digging capabilities, flight etc fails to live up to it's name removing one possible defence), and large numbers of super-weapons.


The AT-AT is flawed, though not so much for the reason you give. Its flawed because it has no apparent weapons that can be fired anywhere except forward, or slightly to the side.

I disagree with Darth Tedious about superweapons- I don't see what edge they'd have given against the Yuzhan Vong that fleets of capital ships couldn't have. What they were for first and foremost was enforcing the Tarkin Doctrine.

Quote:
There are also other decisions which, though not technically idiotic, would give the Federation some degree of advantage- if he hadn't turned, for example, Darth Vader (not the greatest of commanders) would likely be placed in charge.


How is Vader a bad commander? I mean, yes, he's a bit too quick to murder subordinates, but he's had decades of experience, and his tactics (as both Anakin and Vader) tended to be effective. His force absolutely destroyed the Rebels on Hoth despite Ozzel costing him the advantage of surprise, and he didn't just sit on his ass like Tarkin did when the Death Star came under attack.

Quote:
The Empire has also demonstrated an inability to concentrate a large portion of its forces at the decisive point (or any point) despite the existence of hyperdrive.


Indeed.

I would also count needlessly alienating the public through brutal atrocities as an Imperial blunder. I mean, how much of the Rebellion was due to the fact that the Empire enslaved alien races, tortured and executed prisoners, and engaged in orbital bombardments of civilians to make a point?

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 08:01pm
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Err-when exactly would the Empire have needed to concentrate more forces than we saw, pray tell? Militarily, the Rebellion was a complete and utter nonthreat. The Rebel Alliance won because Palpatine designed the Empire to fall apart without him, not because they were at any point in any position to overpower it, even locally, so why would the Empire need to bother concentrate more forces?

Carinthium is also a moron-the thing is called the All TERRAIN Armoured Transport, not the All ENVIRONMENTS Armoured Transport. It not being able to fly, dig or swim is completely irrelevant. It's still inaccurate because I doubt this thing can handle any serious mountain ranges but the reasons the guy mentions are complete garbage.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 08:19pm
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Batman wrote:
Err-when exactly would the Empire have needed to concentrate more forces than we saw, pray tell? Militarily, the Rebellion was a complete and utter nonthreat. The Rebel Alliance won because Palpatine designed the Empire to fall apart without him, not because they were at any point in any position to overpower it, even locally, so why would the Empire need to bother concentrate more forces?


The fact is, the Rebellion was still able to evade detection, and engage in raiding/gurilla warfare, because the Empire couldn't be everywhere at once. And once the Yuzhan Vong showed up, the ability to mass a large fleet could have been very important.

Quote:
Carinthium is also a moron-the thing is called the All TERRAIN Armoured Transport, not the All ENVIRONMENTS Armoured Transport. It not being able to fly, dig or swim is completely irrelevant. It's still inaccurate because I doubt this thing can handle any serious mountain ranges but the reasons the guy mentions are complete garbage.


Its still a piece of shit design given its apparent vulnerability to attack from any direction other than in front.

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 08:55pm
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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Batman wrote:
Err-when exactly would the Empire have needed to concentrate more forces than we saw, pray tell? Militarily, the Rebellion was a complete and utter nonthreat. The Rebel Alliance won because Palpatine designed the Empire to fall apart without him, not because they were at any point in any position to overpower it, even locally, so why would the Empire need to bother concentrate more forces?

The fact is, the Rebellion was still able to evade detection, and engage in raiding/gurilla warfare, because the Empire couldn't be everywhere at once.

Which is relevant-how, exactly? If anything, concentrating forces somewhere because of, um, quantum would have detracted from there ability to be everywhere at once even more.
Quote:
And once the Yuzhan Vong showed up, the ability to mass a large fleet could have been very important.

Except by the time the Biowank Aliens Vong show up, the Empire is no longer around.
Quote:
Quote:
Carinthium is also a moron-the thing is called the All TERRAIN Armoured Transport, not the All ENVIRONMENTS Armoured Transport. It not being able to fly, dig or swim is completely irrelevant. It's still inaccurate because I doubt this thing can handle any serious mountain ranges but the reasons the guy mentions are complete garbage.

Its still a piece of shit design given its apparent vulnerability to attack from any direction other than in front.

Doesn't change the fact that the reasons he gave for the designation being wrong were garbage.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 09:06pm
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Batman wrote:
Which is relevant-how, exactly? If anything, concentrating forces somewhere because of, um, quantum would have detracted from there ability to be everywhere at once even more.


True, but it does show they need more ships. Which is a possible point against superweapons, incidentally. They take up resources that could be used to build more capital ships.

Quote:
Except by the time the Biowank Aliens Vong show up, the Empire is no longer around.


Doesn't change the fact that the Empire might have needed the ability to deal with them. Granted, Palpatine still had some time to develop that capability, but it was something that needed to be done.

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Doesn't change the fact that the reasons he gave for the designation being wrong were garbage.


Either way, its still a piece of crap.

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-15 09:37pm
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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Batman wrote:
Which is relevant-how, exactly? If anything, concentrating forces somewhere because of, um, quantum would have detracted from there ability to be everywhere at once even more.

True, but it does show they need more ships.

Whatever for?
Quote:
Which is a possible point against superweapons, incidentally. They take up resources that could be used to build more capital ships.

Um-no. The Empire managed to build the DS2 in secret with hardly anybody noticing. That's a couple billion ISDs worth of resources and even the people actively looking for it needed crumbs dropped in their way to find it. The Empire had plenty of resources to spare to build more capital ships, should it decide it needed them.
Quote:
Quote:
Except by the time the Biowank Aliens Vong show up, the Empire is no longer around.

Doesn't change the fact that the Empire might have needed the ability to deal with them. Granted, Palpatine still had some time to develop that capability, but it was something that needed to be done.

...perhaps in the time Palpatine expected to have until the Vong arrived before those damned Skywalkers ruined his plans?

And frankly, the Vong would still have gotten their asses handed to them if the NR hadn't been written as complete and utter morons at every turn for the express purpose of the Vong actually being a threat.
Quote:
Quote:
Doesn't change the fact that the reasons he gave for the designation being wrong were garbage.

Either way, its still a piece of crap.

Um-no? It seemed to do reasonably well on Hoth, if nothing else.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-16 12:18am
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The Romulan Republic wrote:
I disagree with Darth Tedious about superweapons- I don't see what edge they'd have given against the Yuzhan Vong that fleets of capital ships couldn't have. What they were for first and foremost was enforcing the Tarkin Doctrine.
A fleet of ISDs could face significant losses engaging a worldship. A Death Star can one shot it. How are you not seeing the advantage there?

Han Solo wrote:
Why isn't there a Death Star lying around when you need one?
Apparently he saw the edge that superweapons would give.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Batman wrote:
Which is relevant-how, exactly? If anything, concentrating forces somewhere because of, um, quantum would have detracted from there ability to be everywhere at once even more.
True, but it does show they need more ships.
You don't think the Empire was continuing to build more ships? In addition to churning out ISDs in bulk, they were building more Executor Class SSDs, and developing bigger, better, badder ships at the same time. By the time the Vong War started, the Empire would have had a fleet much larger than it did, complete with Eclipse Class SSDs, Sovereign Class SSDs, Executors with cloaking devices, and sharks with freakin' laserbeams attached to their heads.
Why are people assuming that DSII = all capital ship production grinding to a halt?
The people at Kuat Drive Yards were still working hard for their money, nevermind every other shipyard around the galaxy. The first Eclipse Class was in production at the same time as the DSII (the only reason it wasn't completed until years later was that it got mothballed upon Palpatine's death).

Batman wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Either way, its still a piece of crap.

Um-no? It seemed to do reasonably well on Hoth, if nothing else.
Hoth? What about Jabiim, Orion IV, Ghorman, Corellia, Chandrilla, New Alderaan? (I'm sure I already mentioned all these places...)
Can anyone name a single instance where the AT-AT was deployed, and the Empire didn't win? Even at the Battle of Boz Pity, where the only AT-AT seen in action was destroyed by a rather large explosive trap, the Empire won the day.
As I've already said, its track record speaks for itself.
AT-AT = squashed opposition.
Please prove that it is a piece of crap with examples of it actually failing.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
I would also count needlessly alienating the public through brutal atrocities as an Imperial blunder. I mean, how much of the Rebellion was due to the fact that the Empire enslaved alien races, tortured and executed prisoners, and engaged in orbital bombardments of civilians to make a point?
Very little, it would seem. The Clone Wars were barely ending when the 'We Hate Palpatine' Commitee formed (see RotS). Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, the Mon Cals & co. all wanted Palpy dethroned long before he commited any of the atrocities you mention.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-16 01:02am
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Darth Tedious wrote:
A fleet of ISDs could face significant losses engaging a worldship. A Death Star can one shot it. How are you not seeing the advantage there?


And a Death Star can only be in one place.

Han Solo wrote:
]Apparently he saw the edge that superweapons would give.


One vague quote taken out of context is not hugely compelling.

Quote:
You don't think the Empire was continuing to build more ships?


No doubt. They still arguably had far fewer capital ships than they needed.

Quote:
Why are people assuming that DSII = all capital ship production grinding to a halt?


I'm not. But they arguably had fewer capital ships than they needed for whatever reason.

Quote:
Hoth? What about Jabiim, Orion IV, Ghorman, Corellia, Chandrilla, New Alderaan? (I'm sure I already mentioned all these places...)
Can anyone name a single instance where the AT-AT was deployed, and the Empire didn't win? Even at the Battle of Boz Pity, where the only AT-AT seen in action was destroyed by a rather large explosive trap, the Empire won the day.
As I've already said, its track record speaks for itself.
AT-AT = squashed opposition.
Please prove that it is a piece of crap with examples of it actually failing.


Tell me something. How many of those examples were against an outnumbered and/or under equipped enemy? Ie, in how many of those situations would the Empire have won regardless of which armored vehicle they sent in?

Quote:
Very little, it would seem. The Clone Wars were barely ending when the 'We Hate Palpatine' Commitee formed (see RotS). Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, the Mon Cals & co. all wanted Palpy dethroned long before he commited any of the atrocities you mention.


Well, to be fair, his first really massive atrocity (that I'm aware of) took place before he even became Emperor (Order 66). Also, are you really so obtuse (or dishonest) as to try claiming that the group from RotS is analagous to open rebellion? That was political opposition. I highly doubt they could have recruited for a large-scale armed revolt (except maybe among ex-CIS worlds) if Palpatine hadn't been a fucking monster.

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-16 01:55am
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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Darth Tedious wrote:
A fleet of ISDs could face significant losses engaging a worldship. A Death Star can one shot it. How are you not seeing the advantage there?


And a Death Star can only be in one place.
They didn't just build a second (and third) DS because the first one was destroyed. Then there's the Galaxy Gun, Sun Crusher... Palpatine was stockpiling multiple superweapons.
Again, how are Imperial superweapons not an advantage against the Vong? They can be deployed in addition to massive fleets of capital ships, the two are not mutually exclusive.
And (more to the point), how are they an advantage to the Federation? (which was the absurd suggestion I was refuting in the first place)

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Han Solo wrote:
Apparently he saw the edge that superweapons would give.


One vague quote taken out of context is not hugely compelling.
How is that vague or out of context? It was what he said the first time he saw a YV worldship. It's a pretty clear statement.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Quote:
You don't think the Empire was continuing to build more ships?


No doubt. They still arguably had far fewer capital ships than they needed.

For what?? What didn't they have enough ships to do? Batman has already asked this.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Quote:
Why are people assuming that DSII = all capital ship production grinding to a halt?


I'm not. But they arguably had fewer capital ships than they needed for whatever reason.
Again, what reason? And how many more (than 25,000 ISDs, not including any other capships) should they have neeeded?

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Quote:
Hoth? What about Jabiim, Orion IV, Ghorman, Corellia, Chandrilla, New Alderaan? (I'm sure I already mentioned all these places...)
Can anyone name a single instance where the AT-AT was deployed, and the Empire didn't win? Even at the Battle of Boz Pity, where the only AT-AT seen in action was destroyed by a rather large explosive trap, the Empire won the day.
As I've already said, its track record speaks for itself.
AT-AT = squashed opposition.
Please prove that it is a piece of crap with examples of it actually failing.


Tell me something. How many of those examples were against an outnumbered and/or under equipped enemy? Ie, in how many of those situations would the Empire have won regardless of which armored vehicle they sent in?
Remember the destruction of the shield generator at Hoth? An A-6 Juggernaut doesn't have the range or firepower required to make a shot like that. True, the Empire would have very likely won anyway, but with greater losses, and with more Rebels escaping. At Jabiim, the AT-ATs literally turned the tide of the battle, decimating enemy numbers.
Major Bren Derlin wrote:
We had the Battle of Ghorman won, until the AT-ATs arrived. They came out of the fog and ripped apart the front lines.
You're not going to tell me this quote is vague or out of context, are you?

Again, how is the AT-AT a disadvantage for the Empire in a war against the UFP? (who are going to be outnumbered and ever more underequipped then the Rebels were)

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Quote:
Very little, it would seem. The Clone Wars were barely ending when the 'We Hate Palpatine' Commitee formed (see RotS). Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, the Mon Cals & co. all wanted Palpy dethroned long before he commited any of the atrocities you mention.


Well, to be fair, his first really massive atrocity (that I'm aware of) took place before he even became Emperor (Order 66). Also, are you really so obtuse (or dishonest) as to try claiming that the group from RotS is analagous to open rebellion? That was political opposition. I highly doubt they could have recruited for a large-scale armed revolt (except maybe among ex-CIS worlds) if Palpatine hadn't been a fucking monster.
[/quote]The 'We Hate Palpy' Commitee formed before Order 66 was executed. I don't deny that they were a political opposition. Hwever, they quickly became a guerilla insurgency when they realised their goals could not be achieved through political means. It's no coincidence that the very same politicians all became major players in the RA. Tell me, when was the Rebellion ever a 'large scale' armed revolt? Though it had widespread support on some worlds (Alderaan and Mon Calamari for example), they were (strangely enough) worlds whose political leaders were opposed to Palpatine before the Clone Wars had even finished.



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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-16 03:36pm
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Batman wrote:
Carinthium is also a moron-the thing is called the All TERRAIN Armoured Transport, not the All ENVIRONMENTS Armoured Transport. It not being able to fly, dig or swim is completely irrelevant. It's still inaccurate because I doubt this thing can handle any serious mountain ranges but the reasons the guy mentions are complete garbage.


The hilarious thing is, though, there is an AT-AT Swimmer design. :lol:



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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-16 04:45pm
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Is there a law saying that SciFi RPG sourcebooks have to be written by ignorant morons? I mean, seriously, a cargo capacity of 600 kilos? Somebody please tell me this is merely another case of a wiki being wrong because every idiot with internet access can edit them.



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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-16 06:54pm
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The Romulan Republic wrote:
The AT-AT is flawed, though not so much for the reason you give. Its flawed because it has no apparent weapons that can be fired anywhere except forward, or slightly to the side.


Actually, with the head's ability to turn, it has a decent arc of fire for the chin guns, especially because of the gun's range and power, so it turns out okay for an artillery weapon. The cheek guns have a much better arc though, since (and I'm not sure about this) if they can turn 360 on their mounts then when the head is fully turned you can cover pretty much everything but directly behind or above the body or anything behind a leg.

How effective the given firing arc is is also dependent on it's turn rate, which wouldn't seem to be that good, but it does vary from source to source.



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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-05-16 08:52pm
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Batman wrote:
Is there a law saying that SciFi RPG sourcebooks have to be written by ignorant morons? I mean, seriously, a cargo capacity of 600 kilos? Somebody please tell me this is merely another case of a wiki being wrong because every idiot with internet access can edit them.

The very first WEG Sourcebook listed a cargo capacity of 400 kilos- they must have had an upgrade at some point! :lol:
But seriously, that figure is in addition to the 40 troops (with all their stock equipment), 5 speeder bikes, and a few E-WEBs. As an option, they can be fitted with a vehicle bay and carry a couple of AT-STs instead. If one were to be modified as a specific cargo carrier, it would hold a considerable amount.

I'm still waiting to see an explanation of how the AT-AT would be an advantage to the UFP...

It should be remembered that a large aspect of its design is psychological- it is made to scare the piss out of troops it is deployed against. I can't really imagine UFP soldiers saying "LOL, look how badly designed it is!" as Imperial Walkers are bearing down on them. Instead, they'd be trembling with fear while they hunker down in their trenches foxholes complete lack of the most basic ground defences.



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"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

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 Post subject: Re: Defending the Federation(RAR) PostPosted: 2011-06-25 05:55am
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Darth Tedious wrote:
I'm still waiting to see an explanation of how the AT-AT would be an advantage to the UFP...


My guess is the trekkies view the AT-AT as slow and unwieldy with poor defenses

They seem to be oblivious to the fact that the Federation has NO ARMY, ground combat is conducted solely by starfleet personnel, and not specially trained people, actual ship crews are impressed as soldiers!

Whereas the Empire has the Stormtrooper Corps

Making matters worse is that AT BEST the Federation has mortars (From TOS) and the Argo from Nemesis. And from what we've seen of those examples, they're both pathetic

Where as the Empire not only has the AT-AT's but AT-ST's, hover tanks, numerous different walkers and repulsorcraft, E-Webs, battle droids, and Chemical Weapons, and the Stormies wear NBC gear all the time

And as others noted the AT-AT's design is intended to strike fear in hearts of the Empire's enemies, the walkers are but a small component in Imperial ground warfare, the only reason the Empire lacked air support on Hoth was because of the Rebel shield

The Scenario is simple...

Admiral: Intelligence has determined that the Empire plans to take Rigel, as our fleet doesn't have a chance, our only hope is to fight the Imperials on the ground.

ALL Personnel from the 5th and 12th fleets are to beam down to Rigel Immediately and defend the planet against Imperial ground forces as they deploy.


*A huge mass of starfleet personnel forms outside Rigel's capital, they are armed with phasers, Isomagnetic Disintergrators, mortars, and Argos*


Blue Shirt: (handling an Isomagnetic Disintergrator) I'm not qualifed for this thing, I joined up to catalog gaseous anomalies, not fight like some primordial ape

Gold Shirt: (getting into an Argo) Tell me about it, scrubbing out EPS conduits with a Dental sanitizer would be heaven compared to this. I've got to drive some Red shirt lieutenant who thinks he's some kind of "General", yeah buddy I enjoy the Normandy holosim as much as the next guy, it doesn't make me a military genius

*the sounds of several sonic booms can be heard as the Imperial drop-ships descend and they can be seen landing just over the horizon*

Red Shirt: Okay everyone the Imperials landed ten Klicks to the east we can expect their attack to emanate from that direction

Blue Shirt: What's a "Klick"?

Gold Shirt: A kilometer...I think

*loud noises can be heard coming from the east, and signs of fear and terror are felt in every starfleeter*

Red Shirt: (looking through binoculars and adjusting the settings) Oh my God! (he turns his head facing the Gold Shirt) Drive West Now!

Blue Shirt: Hey! What about me!

Red Shirt: (in near unison with all other strafleet commanders throughout the mass) RETREAT!

*Now coming into visual range are 12 AT-AT walkers with 24 AT-ST's, a couple dozen hovertanks are pulling up the rear and speederbikes are starting to harass the eastern most part of the Federation lines*

Imperial Officer: Sir, the Federations are dispersing

Imperial Commander: We can't risk them going to ground, have the nerve gas deployed into the heart of their "formation". Haven't these primitive fools ever heard of a phalanx at the very least? And have the Bombers hit their avenues of retreat.

*With all routes blocked by bombing and starfleeters succumbing to Imperial Chemical warfare the remnants surrender"

Blue Shirt: (On seeing the hordes of stormtroopers disgorge from their walkers and transports) Jesus Christ! Is San Fransisco trying to kill us!?




When it comes down to it, on the ground...

Starfleet = Rent-A-Cops(TM) armed with tasers
Imperial Stormtroopers = U.S. Army

Arguing the finer points AT-AT design is just fruitless in a ST vs. SW debate, none of the Trek races remotely have the kind of military that the Empire fields

Aerial support is an extreme rarity in Trek ground combat, not that it matters as the Empire would have de facto aerial superiority (shuttlecraft would be TIE fodder)

The Trek races almost solely rely on 'men in uniform with guns', "infantry" is an incorrect term to describe what we see in Trek. And none of the Trek races employ any armor, the Argo is just a buggy with a rear mounted gun. Where as with the Empire, picture every piece of equipment the U.S. Army uses (guns, NBC gear, Tanks, etc.) and put all that on anabolic steroids and you wind up with the Stormtrooper Corps. kit (blasters, trooper armor, Walkers/Hoveertanks, etc.)

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