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 Post subject: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-28 06:00pm
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Before you read further, note that I am pro Wars in this debate. However, since there seems to be a lack of much actual debate over the outcome of the war, here are some ratio explainable but valid low end SW showings.

My computer is undergoing difficulties, so I am using my iPod touch. I may not be able to post pictures or cite long passages of text.


In TPM, starship mounted laser cannons shows very sub kiloton yields when Anakin fired them.

The same proton torpedos that were expected to at least have a chance of taking out a TF battleship were very sub kiloton when fired.

Queen Amidala's yacht was moving at only a few hundred meters per second.

Maul engages Qui Gon on foot instead of hitting his general area with a proton torpedo or a laser cannon.

A Naboo starfighter is taken out by a very sub kiloton AAT bolt.

The missile impacting at the beginning of AotC was very sub kiloton.

The Jedi rescuing Obi Wan and Anakin had no fear that some random TF battleship could fire a turbolaser set at 0.000000001% power and kill them all.

No kiloton level effects were seen At Geonosis. The clones had to worry about collateral damage, but why such a false dilemma and underkill instead of near kiloton shots? And once the separatist leaders had escaped, why not have one TF battleship stay behind and broadcast a big fuck you while killing the clone army with one shot, while whiping out much of the Jedi Council?

Why the age of sail tactics and low speeds in the Battle of Coriscant?

Why were spectators still watching the battle as claimed in the novel while the shields were clearly down, when they should be in a deep planetary bunker?

Why does the novel mention devastation done by falling debris and not by a single stray medium turbolaser bolt?

Why were super battle droids burned by orange color fire?

Why were laser cannons blasts used to kill Ploo Koon so weak? If they dialed the yield down by a million times, how would they do jack to he starfighter's shields?

Why was the AT TE's cannon so weak when fired at Obi Wan? A single kiloton hit; which a giant barrel should be able to have if smaller laser cannons of equal tech base can, would have wiped out Obi Wan, while the clone troopers...oh, well, at least a gigajoule hit.

After Grevious is killed, why doesn't the droids space fleet just BDZ as much of Utapau as they can; especially where Grevious was reported to have been residing so they they kill Kenobi, and then run away? It's not as though they're worried about friendly fire.

Why was durasteel melting in lava and ripping of and burning up in reentry?


Most of these can be rationalized, but I'd like to see your opinions on it.



"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

Liberals opposed slavery, supported labor protection laws, supported civil rights, supported Womens' right, opposed the spoils system, supported Scientific advancement and research and support gay marriage. Conservatives did the opposite. Guess which side has the intellectual, forward thinking progressives, and which side has rich fundamentalist anti-gay white slave owners?

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-28 06:12pm
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I've always been of a mind that Star Wars power levels were bullshit.

Outside of the Death Star and some asteroids being vaporized, there is no visual evidence that turbo lasers, on capital ships or starfighters produce anything close to the level of firepower the pro Wars side claims.

The excuse of 'hur hur power settings' is also pretty tired and just doesn't logically explain anything.



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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-28 06:30pm
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Oh, there's plenty of evidence for SW firepower, even without the EU. For example, the power generation figures needed for the Death Star to circumnavigate a gas giant in 30 minutes scaled down.



"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

Liberals opposed slavery, supported labor protection laws, supported civil rights, supported Womens' right, opposed the spoils system, supported Scientific advancement and research and support gay marriage. Conservatives did the opposite. Guess which side has the intellectual, forward thinking progressives, and which side has rich fundamentalist anti-gay white slave owners?

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-28 07:01pm
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I think what Havok is talking about is the very high end claims made by a large section of currently semi active wars persona's. ECR for example is at the very high end of supportable numbers based solely on the ICS. But arguments from high end are not a good way to frame a debate, you need both an upper limit and a lower limit. And yes that is a lower limit not the lowest showing. If you can get a lower limit that the other side doesn't have meaningful objections to it and you can show that even the upper limit of the opposing side is insufficient compared to the lower, then and only then can you be decisive and claim that victory is easy. ANY other situation for firepower has to be more thoroughly discussed and brought to reason by both sides, otherwise there can be reasonable doubt if the difference between the firepower is enough for one side to claim victory.

Now actually finding events that can be calc for upper and lower limits is not totally easy, but it has been done well enough in the days before the ICS. (From what I read of Mike's main pages a while back the difference in upper and lower is something like 30 to 1. Close and if enough other things were in ST favor they could come out on top. Industry and Speed doom ST almost as much as anything else though.)



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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-28 07:20pm
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Also, more:

"That won't be necessary, Commander,: Caedus said. "The planet is already within range of the Anamin Solo's long-range turbolasers, is it not?"
Twizzl's bushy brows dropped so low that they nearly covered his eyes. "Of course, but the Kashyyyk fleet is--"
"Unimportant." Caedus faced Twizzl, presenting his back to Ben again. If the order he was about to give did not prompt his cousin to attack, then nothing would. "Have the long-range batteries open fire."
Twizzl's face went slack with confusion. "On the Owools?"
"On the planet." As Cadeus spoke, he was careful to keep his hand away from his lightsaber. He wnted to give his cousin every chance to attack; if Ben did not strike soon, he would have to be eliminated as unworthy. "Have them direct their fire to the same target area; the objective is to create a firestorm."
Caedus's command was greeted by utter silence, and he could feel the Force reverberating with the shock of the officers and crew who had overhead the command. Only Ben failed to seem surprised--though perhaps it was because he was still hiding his presence from the Force. Jacen continued to face Twizzl, giving the youth plenty of time to strike.
After a couple of moments, Twizzl finally seemed able to respond, "You want to burn the wroshyrs?"
"Precisely." Caedus said. "The entire world-forest if we can."
"Twizzl's expression changed from stunned to condemnating. "But that's...that's just madness. It won't accomplish anything!"
"That's not your conclusion to reach, Commander," Caedus replied. Giving the order wasn't easy--in fact, it made him feel sick. As a child, he had both loved and respected Chewbacca, and the last thing he wanted to do was burn teh homeworld of his friend and protector. But the Wookies had brought this disaster on themsleves by betraying the Balactic Alliance. "However, just this once, I will explain myself to you."
"I'd appreciate that, Colonel." Twizzl's tone suggested that the explanation would need to be a good one, if Caedus expected him to obey. "Thank you."
"Very well. You were at the Battle of Kuat, so you know how evenly matched our militaries are."
Twizzl nodded. "The Confederation will have to break off soon," he said. "They can't match the Alliance in a war of attrition."
"And we can't afford one," Caedus countered, "We're already too weak to defend all the worlds under our protection, and the Confederation knows it. So you're wrong--they're not going to withdraw. They're going to keep fighting and hope we'll withdraw, which we can't do. It would leave a clear lane all the way to Coruscant."
"So we're in a stalemate," Ben said, disapointing Caedus by stepping toward him--not to attack, but to join the conversation. "How's burning Kashyyyk going to change that?"
Unable to hide is frustration, Caedus whirled on the boy. "Think, Ben. What do we both need to break the stalemate? What are we losing here and the Confederaiton gaining?"
Ben recoiled from the venom in Caedu's voice, but he answered quickly, "Allies."
"Correct." Caedus placed his hand on Ben's shoulder, but he was so angry he had to stop himself from drawing back and striking the youth. "And if the Confederation hopes to make an ally of the Wookies, what must they do?"
Twizzl's eyes lit with angry comprehension. "Come to Kashyyyk's defense."
"Which means they have to abandon their drive on Coruscant," Ben finished. "And burning the forests is going to provoke more of a public outrage than just capturing the Kashyyyk assault fleet. If the Confederation doesn't help the Wookies, they're going to have trouble recruiting more worlds. It'll look like they don't care about anyone bu themselves.
"Right again," Caedus said.
"But who'll want to join us?" Twizzl demanded. "Were going to look like monsters."
Caedus smiled. "Exactly, Commander. Worlds will tremble at the thought of deserting us. If we're willing to burn the Kashyyyk forest as punishment, who knows what we might do to them?"
Twizzl's mouth dropped in horror, and he stared at Caedus without saying anything.
"I have grown weary of waiting, Commander," Caedus said. "Will you relay my order now, or do I need to appoint a new commander?"
The threat was enough to shake Twizzl out of his daze. "That won't be necessary, Colonel. I see no military reason to disregard you orders--your rationale seems as sound as it does chilling.



"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

Liberals opposed slavery, supported labor protection laws, supported civil rights, supported Womens' right, opposed the spoils system, supported Scientific advancement and research and support gay marriage. Conservatives did the opposite. Guess which side has the intellectual, forward thinking progressives, and which side has rich fundamentalist anti-gay white slave owners?

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-28 08:27pm
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What is the above passage evidence of? That I should never touch the EU except for use as fuel?



Don't abandon democracy folks, or an alien star-god may replace your ruler. - NecronLord

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-28 08:48pm
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That's a bit harsh. The EU is unfortunately a whole lot of 'not worth reading' with a depressingly large dose of 'you gotta be kidding me' but there definitely is stuff in there worth reading. TTT. The Wraith Squadron novels. The HoT duology. The original Han and Lando novels.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-29 01:04am
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A lot of it could probably be explained away as shields blocking things and tactical ineptitude.



"I'm just reading through your formspring here, and your responses to many questions seem to indicate that you are ready and willing to sacrifice realism/believability for the sake of (sometimes) marginal increases in gameplay quality. Why is this?"
"Because until I see gamers sincerely demanding that if they get winged in the gut with a bullet that they spend the next three hours bleeding out on the ground before permanently dying, they probably are too." - J.E. Sawyer
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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-29 10:42am
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And a lot can be explained by the fact that beam weapons /= explosive ordanance.

This issue has been raised a lot with regard to SW firepower levels (and it can be equally raised about ST firepower). Quite simply it's because shooting something with a beam of energy or particles is not the same as exploding a bomb.

Phaser rifles pump ~1MJ into their target per shot, yet we do not see grenade level explosions. The modified phase pistols in ENT:'Regeneration' were firing bursts of 10MJ.

IRL, the National Ignition Facility has tested a MJ+ laser array, and the target did not explode with grenade level force, but rather imploded. Link.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-29 11:35am
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Darth Tedious wrote:

IRL, the National Ignition Facility has tested a MJ+ laser array, and the target did not explode with grenade level force, but rather imploded. Link.


Cool link i think i will save that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-29 07:27pm
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Batman wrote:
That's a bit harsh. The EU is unfortunately a whole lot of 'not worth reading' with a depressingly large dose of 'you gotta be kidding me' but there definitely is stuff in there worth reading. TTT. The Wraith Squadron novels. The HoT duology. The original Han and Lando novels.


I'll concede I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater but the above excerpt is an assault on my faculties. It's like having a small goblin repeatedly hit you with a club while screaming "Star Wars, you're reading Star Wars." And I still don't see it's point. So ships from orbit or near orbit can start a fire on a planet? Tell me why that's impressive. Or is it that Kashyyyk has no planetary shields despite being so important that Yoda went to aid their defence during the prequels.



Don't abandon democracy folks, or an alien star-god may replace your ruler. - NecronLord

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-29 07:34pm
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I never read that excerpt actually. I was just pointing out there is a good bit of EU out there worth reading.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-06-30 03:20am
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"Good bit" is pushing it. I'd say there are 10 good books, discounting the novelizations and direct movie tie ins like like Labyrinth of Evil and Dark Lord.



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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-01 12:34pm
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Darth Tedious wrote:
IRL, the National Ignition Facility has tested a MJ+ laser array, and the target did not explode with grenade level force, but rather imploded. Link.
You have no idea how much work went into setting that up... it's not an example that should be used to illustrate anything but laser-based inertial confinement fusion.

More generally, as the amount of energy applied scales up, you do start to expect results more similar to those of explosions, simply because more energy is being dumped into the stuff the beam hits first. However, such explosions are liable to be highly directional- you're going to see damage tracks much deeper than they are wide, and so on, unless you do complicated and clever things with the weapon design.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-02 03:56am
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I know that one of the reasons I go with the numbers I do is, simply, Kardashev- The GFFA is, grant the premise for a moment, clearly a galaxy spanning civilisation- not totally, not a full stage three, but way beyond stage 2, single system. Yes, the scale is an extremely blunt instrument; it's supposed to be. A variously described number of settled stars plus industrial facilities of some sort somewhere- Basically, we end up around Kardashev number 2.6, maybe 2.7 if industry is assumed towards the upper end.

Now, what sort of things should a civilisation of that Kardashev number be able to do? What sort of levels of energy should they be able to employ?
I'm moderately convinced that this is the reason the numbers in the ICS and on the Star Wars Technical Commentaries are what they are, in fact; that Dr Saxton, an astrophysicist by trade, took Alderaan, worked backwards and integrated that sort of energy output across normal society, and the ICS stats are how it all worked out- and then played the intellectual game of how it could be done, assuming some pretty wild and interesting things along the way.

On the other side, the depressing majority of the EU is mushy space fantasy written by the marginally scientifically literate who wouldn't recognise an artificial stellar source of infrared radiation* if they were hit on the head with it, (which in itself would be quite a feat), and to be honest you could probably say the same about George Lucas apart from that he does like to push the 'wow' button from time to time; remember that WEG roleplaying game material was used as the writer's bible by LucasArts for many years.

Which wouldn't be so bad, if it was well written, and I am not really a purist in this regard; any level of science in science fiction beyond 'not searingly obvious, SoD-violating bullshit' is usually enough to keep reading on the strength of, but there is still a fair amount of that to be found- Sun Crusher, looking at you- and the literary standards, well. Less ready to criticise now than I was before I started writing- it's harder than it looks- but the majority of it is basically soap opera standard. Which is a standard, and if the writers involved can get paid for it, more power to them.

I do like the larger numbers because, well, there are plenty of the other sort and it's good to have the opportunity to explore what they mean and imply, to wander into the playground of a high Kardashev civilisation with still basically comprehensible laws of physics and see what can be done. How solid a grounding they're really on, well, there's some justification for them. Not as much, or as firm, as I'd like.





*= Dyson sphere

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-02 12:25pm
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Is there an average output figure for ISDs available? With 25,000 of them running at once, they might well be getting up there...



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-02 01:51pm
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@Darth Tedious
For what would they use all this energy? They would be burning fuel for the sake of burning fuel?

Most of the systems won't be on max. capacity. Then I guess some will even be shut down for repairs/checks.

So the only systems which would be really running (if the SD is orbeting a planet) are things like:
Life support (Air, Food, Water), docking control, some of the sensors but I guess not at full capacity etc.
Considering the assumption, that the empire should have a bit higher efficiency than us today, this won't be much.
I mean for what?
(Untill somebone writes canon ala TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint" because he has no idea what energy output really means. Well, in StarTrek you have the holodecks, laboratories and replicators to explain it a bit but still not on this scale.)

This is also one reason, why the Kardashev scale is not liked by everyone.

Considering a high developed culture, they will have a much higher effiziency. And you do not need unlimited amounts of energy.
Unless you start building up your food out of pure energy and shoot your trash in space with a bit less than c. But why would you do such things?
@Destructionator XIII
Quote:
I doubt the general population's energy usage is anywhere near the star destroyers peak. Taking statements like that thing on the main site saying a single turbolaser bolt is more than some civilizations use total or a hyperjump can power a world to base this off of, and some common sense - what the hell are regular people doing with gigawatts or more each?

It would be like columbus trying to find a route to india using barrens of gold (throw them in the opposit direction) in order to accelerate his ship. No matter what the empire will find in the sector, it is probably worth much less then they spend to get there in the first place. And if they loose just one SD the fuel alone would be around the value of terraforming several worlds.
Which is quite silly, if you start thinking about it. (But as you see above StarTrek is sometime equally silly)
So I guess the quotes refered to some "primitv" cultures like the evoks. (Making it much less silly)
Would be quite silly, if Han Solo could make a hyperspace jump or have enough energy to build his own colonie.
Cheez, the hole stuff about the hyperspace/warb (and the impuls engines in ST) is to keep the energy/time consumption low, so there is a interest in even exploring the galaxie.
Thats like: We could build and fuel one SD or we could build an entire city...

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-02 05:00pm
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@Destructionator XIII
Quote:
This isn't necessarily true.

Yes, but quite likely if you consider, that the technology needs to be developed.

Quote:
Also, efficiency doesn't necessarily mean less energy is used.

Yes, but it reduces the number non the less.


Quote:
A surprisingly big energy eater is lighting. We might burn a lot on heating and cooling too. But for all of these, there's a natural limit to it - there's only so much light and heat people want before it gets useless or uncomfortable. Transportation, though, doesn't have a limit like that.

Of course there is. You do not need to travel at the highest speed possible. Security and compfort always work against speed. And there has to be also the need to travel.

Theoretically you could go higher and higher, but there won't be a lot of benefits in each sector, so why should you.
Like I said, where is the need to shoot your garbadge away with the speed of light?

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-02 09:02pm
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Mercenario wrote:
Of course there is. You do not need to travel at the highest speed possible. Security and compfort always work against speed. And there has to be also the need to travel.

There's no p in comfort. Showing that travel at the speeds that are routine in Wars is dangerous-or that going slower would be any safer-is up to you.
Quote:
Theoretically you could go higher and higher, but there won't be a lot of benefits in each sector, so why should you.
Like I said, where is the need to shoot your garbadge away with the speed of light?

Err-the only one who ever mentioned that was you, you know.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-02 10:44pm
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Anybody want to try and rationalize the OP?



"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

Liberals opposed slavery, supported labor protection laws, supported civil rights, supported Womens' right, opposed the spoils system, supported Scientific advancement and research and support gay marriage. Conservatives did the opposite. Guess which side has the intellectual, forward thinking progressives, and which side has rich fundamentalist anti-gay white slave owners?

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-03 12:38am
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Luke Skywalker wrote:
Anybody want to try and rationalize the OP?

Again, I'll point out that much of what's raised in the OP is observed firepower vs. claimed yields.
Beam weapons /= explosive ordanance.
A bolt of lightning (on average) carries 500MJ. That's equivalent to 500 hand grenades. Yet, a bolt of lightning directed into a bucket full of sand does little more than produce some funky glass.
When a laser cannon hits the dirt and prouces a small, smoking hole, what happens to the dirt in the hole? At the molecular level? At the atomic level? If we knew, we might have some idea where the energy goes (and how), but complaining that KT-level firepower doesn't produce KT-sized explosions is pointless. It's quite simply not how beam weapons work.
Luke Skywalker wrote:
Maul engages Qui Gon on foot instead of hitting his general area with a proton torpedo or a laser cannon.
Did his flying bike even have weapons?
This is actually more to do with Maul's character (which was padded out in the EU) than anything else- he enjoys fighting and defeating his opponents in martial combat.

WRT the Kardashev discussion, and more advanced civilisations using greater energy in spite of being more efficient- just look at modern society.
There are people who consider it less effort to use plastic spoons instead of washing metal ones. Consider the level of industry involved in producing and distributing polystyrene cutlery. The plastics industry likely uses more energy than the entire world before the advent of steam power, and that's only a couple of hundred years difference.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-03 05:38pm
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Destructionator XIII wrote:
Even if we grant that interpretation in full, it doesn't say much. Here's some problems:

1) What engines do and what power generation does aren't the same thing. An example I like to use is the space shuttle. It's main engines put out many megawatts per ton. (I don't recall the exact number off hand and want to go outside soon so not going to look up...)

Say it's around 10 kW/kg. Does this mean we have 10+ kW laser pistols in the real world? Of course not. We don't even have electrical generators that get close to that power per weight.

Rockets, power generation, and weapons are all different classes of technology. One doesn't necessarily imply the other.

2) How much fuel did that take? Is it like the shuttle, where it needs to refuel after each mission? This has big practical considerations on the usefulness. Maybe they can shoot their big guns for a few minutes... then run out of gas.

3) Can it be scaled down, or is the size an important part of the technology?


And granting that interpretation in full isn't something I'm willing to do either.



The only really solid example of firepower in the movies is the Death Star blast in ANH, and even it still leaves problems 2 and 3 on applying it to everything everywhere.


I agree with the idea behind it, but I wonder if its as either/or as that. I mean your example about the space shuttle vs a small arm. It may or may not be valid, but the sheer "diferences" between the comparisons make it far less likely. Something might be more reasonable if its closer to home (such as the comparison between the firepower of a handun and a rifle when it coems to small arms that are roughly consistent in effects.) You might also compare the fossil fule engines of a battleship and a destroyer for a comparison, but comparing it to a nuclear aircraft carrier may be less plausible.

Secondly, I kinda question that you can assume just ANY variable happens. Even IRL large ratios are unlikely.. stuff like millions or billison of times "different" in comparison are highly unlikely - we'd be like having to compare chemical vs nuclear (for example), or a nuclear reactor vs a nuclear bomb to get those sorts of ratios. But you actually need to go higher than that, ratio wise, to stop the DS from implying some significant power generation for SW (and by "significant I'm saying "high megaton to low gigatons per second at least" for an ISD-sized vessel.)

In any case, while you can also make an argument for beam weapons, engines, etc. not neccesarily being easily scaled, that doesn't apply in general. I find it hard to believe you can apply that rationale to, for example, any kind of explosive application.. at least at really large 'differences" in power. Alot of this hinges on how you think the DS reactor works of course, but many of the competing thereos do allow for the weapon to, in some way, be easily converted into a munition of equal power, and it shoudl scale up or down somewhat well (at least as far as exploding goes. transporting or deploying it is another matter of course.)

So at the very least, I would expect the existence of the DS to indicate that the sheer amount of explosive they cuold chuck around for raw destruction has the potential to be significant. The only possible way around this, moreover, is to invoke significant degrees of technobabble that are at best arbitrary and worst made up as far as the evidence goes.

Destructionator XIII wrote:
I don't know of any written average, but we might be able to guess by looking at what they are doing most the time. Or, at least, what they aren't doing most the time.

They aren't firing the vast majority of the time.

They aren't making the jump to hyperspace the vast majority of the time.

They aren't running the engines at high power the vast majority of the time.


Those are the three biggest energy hogs, and they are used pretty rarely. Probably a total of a few minutes a day, if even that much!

So that would put the average at 1/1000 of the peak possibility (thereabouts - there's ~1000 minutes in a day) assuming they run full power for any of that and a negligible percentage the rest of the time.


Well, peak power is meant to run at a few hours most.. say like 2-3. We know that most starships carry consumables on average for months or years (which is, at least according to some sources, include fuel) so we migth figure that as a potentail lower limit approximation of operational time. i would figure that the number would fall somewhere between those extremes. The fact that hyperspace jumps can take anywhere from weeks/days to days/hours gives us a good idea of what might be "typical" as well.. (although hours is IMHO getting close to peak/exceptional performance.)

Alot of it really depends on what sort of function a ship is expected to perform and alot of other data we don't have. I mean I expect things like lighting computers and life support are usually not high end power draws. Ground combat probably isnt. What little I undertand suggetss FTL comms and sensors are significant, weapons are, engines are, hyperdrives are, and shields are.. and all of those are the key factors dictating the high (absurd) power generation potential.


Typical combat? Depends on the kind of target and the requirements. Pirates or mercenaries might not require the firepower that taking on a stationary platform might. The former might require a small fraction of power (say like even a millionth of a ISD's power draw) but the latter might require near max power (esp if they have DS scale battle stations) Other "combat" situations like orbital bombardment are unlikely to typically require peak generation (or hell, may not even reach NUCLEAR scale yields... People ovrestate the value of nuke firepower as an arbiter of ground combat, ImHO) My own opinion is that "typical" starship combat can get as low as maybe 100-1000x less peak power.



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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-03 05:39pm
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Oh and re: Kardeshev levels and such... They really remind me of the old attempst at "force charts" on SB.. it takes something that is pretty complicated and tries to dumb it downt o a level that you really can't dumb it down too, because too many variables/asumptions are being made or are involved. SW tech and stuff is alot more complicated than that, as is Trek and other universes - hell it doesnt realyl address the intricacies or specifics of any given universe.

General OP realted Informed Opinion : I don't like these sorts of discussions because I find them too limiting. I mean the basic premise is an either/or one.. as in "if they have this ability why didnt they use it here, because otherwise they must not have it." - it makes too many assumptions and fails to account for other possibilities (low fuel or propellant, ship poorly maintained, not wanting ot strain systems, or even simple arrogance or stupidity.) "If they coudl do that why didnt they do it" type argumens have validity, but their application is, IMHO more complex than they typically are used (again not either/or, regardless of the universe.)

more to the point if there is a general contradiction or perceived contradiciton (EG the oft-contested ICS power generation, firepower, etc.) figures, then it is better to just accept the figures and find an interpretation that adapts them to the existing framework (which isnt that hard - peak power gets trated as "typical usage" but as D13 is pointing out, I think, that doesnt mean they're limited to solely that operational level. They may operate in other roles at less than max level and not contradict the fact they can pull higher performance, but may not for various logistical, maintenance, or practical reasons.)



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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-03 09:36pm
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Hey guys, your conversation is interesting, but it's really OT. If you want to, you can make a seperate topic about it.

My few cents on that though; SW is definitely not a literal type 3 civilization. If we take an average SD to output in the ballpark of e24 watts; even thought they are only going to be outputting that in times of combat or hyperjumps, you would need ten trillion ISDs to match e38 watts.



"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

Liberals opposed slavery, supported labor protection laws, supported civil rights, supported Womens' right, opposed the spoils system, supported Scientific advancement and research and support gay marriage. Conservatives did the opposite. Guess which side has the intellectual, forward thinking progressives, and which side has rich fundamentalist anti-gay white slave owners?

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 Post subject: Re: Playing Devil Advocate PostPosted: 2011-07-03 09:59pm
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Type III — a civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single galaxy, approximately 4 ×1037 W. This figure is extremely variable, since galaxies vary widely in size; the stated figure is the approximate power output of the Milky Way. Kardashev's original definition was also 4 ×1037 W.

Star Wars has single ships that put Type II civs to shame.

Basically, do some reading before spouting off.



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