Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Open question: why can they breathe? Meh, the out of universe answer is the only "perfect" one, but the gravity thing works pretty well for everything else.
Another question- how can they see? Just as they need to be able to interact with the atmosphere to breathe, the retinas in their eyes need to absorb incoming light in order to see anything.

On a tangent, I think it was Riker who said half the ship appeared inside solid rock, even though 65% is actually two thirds :lol:
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Darth Tedious: I do believe that the episode in question mentioned that the ship had a power surge aboard it.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Darth Tedious »

Agent Sorchus wrote:Darth Tedious: I do believe that the episode in question mentioned that the ship had a power surge aboard it.
I was addressing Batman's theory WRT the question about the wiring to the phase cloak having failed- as in, if the wiring to it failed, why did it work at all? There should have been no power getting to it.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Batman »

Darth Tedious wrote:
Agent Sorchus wrote:Darth Tedious: I do believe that the episode in question mentioned that the ship had a power surge aboard it.
I was addressing Batman's theory WRT the question about the wiring to the phase cloak having failed- as in, if the wiring to it failed, why did it work at all? There should have been no power getting to it.
When did I say a word about the wiring to it failing? I merely presented a theory for why the ship could remain phased without continuous power input to the cloak. We essentially don't know beans about what happened back then, so 'cloak activation' (intentional or otherwise)-something goes seriously wrong and kills the crew-ship drifts into asteroid-after a while, something else goes wrong and deactivates the cloak is a decidedly possible scenario.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Darth Tedious »

Batman wrote:
Darth Tedious wrote:
Agent Sorchus wrote:Darth Tedious: I do believe that the episode in question mentioned that the ship had a power surge aboard it.
I was addressing Batman's theory WRT the question about the wiring to the phase cloak having failed- as in, if the wiring to it failed, why did it work at all? There should have been no power getting to it.
When did I say a word about the wiring to it failing? I merely presented a theory for why the ship could remain phased without continuous power input to the cloak. We essentially don't know beans about what happened back then, so 'cloak activation' (intentional or otherwise)-something goes seriously wrong and kills the crew-ship drifts into asteroid-after a while, something else goes wrong and deactivates the cloak is a decidedly possible scenario.
It was DXIII who mentioned the wiring failure.
The theory for the cloak remaining 'active' without power works- but based on the idea that the change of phase is what requires power, how would they have phased back without power to the phase-cloak?
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Batman »

You're a) presupposing that the wiring failed to begin with when there's any number of other things that could have gone wrong and b) that it failed permanently when there's plenty of evidence for wiring failing temporarily but being up and running on and off in the real world.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

It occured to me that we actually have the case with Ro/Romulan/other character (Geordi?) being "phased" as a benchmark to go by (if their state was related to what happened to the Phoenix, that is.) - unless there was some external (magical) power source "sustaining" them in a phased state, we can assume that any energy input might be involved with starting/stopping it. perhaps there is also an energy input involved with making alterations to the ship's state - phasing need not simply be an either/or proposition, there could be various "degreeS" of phasing that depend on the target material's nature (and as I speculated before, certain materials may be harder ot phase through than others.)

Next, as far as the "how do they breathe/see" bit goes, what we see may simply be a convenient illusion of some sort. Maybe their perceptions (or ours) are manipulated so as to put the entire situation in some context that makes sense to us - analogus to the way we might get sound in space in some situations.

Another possibility is that the phasing effect has some density dependence. Sufficiently dense matter can be affected, but other things (like atmosphere) may be less impacted (maybe for them it was like breathing at higher altitudes?.) How it influences photons is up for debate (maybe certain kinds are affected more than others? For all we know maybe Ro and Geordi can "see" but the image is monocrhome, for example.)

Another possibility, although one I can't see why/how for yet, is that their ability to function in a phased state may be of finite duration. Perhaps after a certain amount of time they would start to weaken/asphyxiate/etc.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Destructionator XIII wrote: This thing is something to remind folks who talk about cranking up power too. In real life, if you turn up the power more than the wiring in the middle is rated for, you'll burn it out and start a fire. (Of course, ideally, a fuse or circuit breaker steps in before it comes to that. Building code requires that the wiring have a safety margin above the breaker's rating, to guarantee it blows before they burn, and the breakers are rated to survive current spikes a lot more than anything normal too.

But, even with the safety requirements in building codes, sometimes shit still happens. And, sometimes people purposely bypass them or ignorantly introduce another weak link. Commercial buildings here are prohibited by the fire code in using extension cords. Why? The internal wiring of the building is tough enough to take abuse, but your typical household extension cord isn't rated to that kind of current spikes.

So, if you (or God, eg lightning) overloaded the extension cord, it might not be able to handle it and start a fire, despite everything else working properly and being well within their safety margins.

It's certainly possible for extension cords to be perfectly safe, but the fire department doesn't want to take chances with a public building, so they banned the whole thing.)
The thing to really remember (IIRC) is that it was still largely an experimental device, but we dont know how far along it was. It sounds like there was alot of disagreement about the safety levels of the device, and that's a very subjective impression. If Pressman was a particularily callous or pragmatic type, he might (purely a hypothetical numbeR) might be happy with a 1 in 20 failure rate, yet Riker (or starfleet) consider that far too high a loss. Hell maybe even for them one in 100 would be excessive.

It's also possible that risks only accrued over prolonged usage and that played a role. I don't remember exactly how long the phasing cloak was ever used on the Phoenix, but it could be that as it is used for prolonged periods, the danger increases significantly with time. In that way it might be perfectly acceptable for short term usage (say minutes or hours) but risky over longer (days, for example.)
Anyway, I'm really digressing. The point is, the entire system, from generator to output and every little thing in between needs to be able to handle the worst situation you throw at it. The weak point might be something you never even considered!
Yep. Again, it's experimental, and there's just no saying how complicated the design is. Hell, for all we know the problems originate with making the technology work with the other stuff in a federation starship. Perhaps the power generation systems do not take kindly to being phased? Or maybe the subspace related systems go wonky in a phased state. Who knows.
(weird though: wouldn't the explosion cut power? Maybe it has an added draw to start up, like a lot of electric systems. (Motors, for example, take a lot more current getting up to speed than maintaining it.) This initial burst blew out one system, but the cloaking device still had enough power to work through other connections.)
Maybe it does cut power.. but would that mean the energy just magically dries up and vanishes? There could be some delay or lag time between cutting power and things shutting down. Energy stored in capacitors/batteries, or still in the power transfer systems/conduits and whatnot. There could even be finite rates at which power can be safely shut down, and if you exceed that bad things happen.
Yup. Out of universe, obviously the actors have to walk. There'd be no story if the ship just left them behind...

In universe, I speculate that the ship's artificial gravity plating might be responsible.

To get there, I asked: what's the difference between a walls, tables, rocks, people, etc. that they pass through and the starship's floor that they don't? The only answer I found satisfactory is the floor has some kind of gravity system in it.
I've heard SIFs also argued as a reason, but we know SIFs are used in the walls too. AG maybe.. but wouldn't the gravity just be likely to pull people through the ground? Unless you're saying whatever generates the AG might keep them propped - some material they can't phase through.
The other main option thrown up was materials, but I rejected it because the walls are probably made of the same stuff, and they passed through them without trouble.
Dunno. Hard to say because I dont remember us knowing a great deal about how the ships are constructed.

Mind you, we don't have to assume it's just an either or thing. Dense materials could still be passed through, but maybe they just require more time or effort to bypass. It's also possible its not just density but thickness. It's not unreasonable to assume that the floors are thicker than internal walls. (although once the Romulan flies out of the ship... that is harder to explain admittedly.) I recall they didn't stand around a great deal, maybe moving around helped them keep afloat.
The inertial dampers might work on a similar principle, so we can apply this same reasoning there to explain why they move with the ship, in the absence of a regular force acting upon them.
Well I think the fact we know gravity is acting on them and they aren't floating away is sufficient proof that some sort of force field acts on them, yeah. I'm just not sure that gravity alone would work. Maybe whatever is in the floor has some sort of repulsive anti-gravitational properties that cancels out whatever downward pull they might otherwise feel? I imagine they might have conduits and such running through the floors and even some walls. Just because some walls can be passed through doesn't mean all would be.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Connor MacLeod wrote:It occured to me that we actually have the case with Ro/Romulan/other character (Geordi?) being "phased" as a benchmark to go by (if their state was related to what happened to the Phoenix, that is.)
Pegasus, you mean. The USS Phoenix was a different ship altogether.

(I don't mean to be annoying, it's just that I watched that episode literally minutes ago)
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

dude I dont mind if you correct me, I'm going off memory from years ago on much of this, I'm likely to be getting details wrong :P
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Stofsk »

I just didn't want it to sound like I was nitpicking. ;)
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Destructionator XIII wrote: Yeah, the generator thing I think puts them up. I figure it's some kind of technobabble particle that pulls down but also stops phased people... for whatever reason. Problem here: do turbolifts have gravity generators in there? Why is it possible to fall down a shaft? Not how I'd design a ship. Then again, I probably wouldn't bother with full gravity at all......

Gah, really, bringing artificial gravity into a phase discussion just means we have two problems instead of one!
It does occur to me that the fact they feel gravity at all doesn't mean its 1g standard. It could be much less than that (say like, 1/3 or 1/5 g) It also occurs to me that their bodies in a phased state may influence the sort of field needed to provide an upward force (I mean, there may not be alot of mass there to push up against, although contemplating that gets us into mass lightening territory, and I start to get the sort of headache you must be feeling.)
Moving around might work. Actually, I like that a lot, it's pretty cool, like walking on water!

But, I really don't think density or even thickness has anything to do with it simply because there's no indication given to that effect. Geordi was punching around, experimenting with what he could do, and wandering around the ship for some time. If he felt a difference moving through different materials, I imagine he would have said something.

That Romulan who flies out is a good counter too. He wasn't pushing off - if the hull of the ship (surely dense and thick) slowed him down, I would expect him to, well, slow down.
Dammit, that's a good point. Density may not be the sole factor though. It could be a combination of material properties that determine the ease/difficulty with which phased matter can pass through other matter. For example, perhaps the ability for Ro and Geordi to breathe despite being "phased" is due to the fact the air around them is not only low density, but in a gaseous state (whilst the walls are solid, and dense.) I mean water can exist in a vapor, liquid, and solid form, but its permeability is variable depending on that state. (Hell ice is LESS dense than water. So are Trees. Yet I can't walk through the side of a log cabin or an iceberg.)
If there is an effect, it must be too small to see or feel easily, which doesn't jive with them easily walking.
Well, I think its fairly obvious we know there is SOMETHING there keeping them standing on the floor, and it is somehow different than what is in the walls. The WHY that is isn't a vital matter, if it gets down to it. It can be kind of a fun mental exercise to figure out, though.
Maybe, but wouldn't certain floors also be free of it? Maybe they coincidentally didn't hit any of them.
Could be. But to the same extent that the walls might? Who knows. Maybe whatever technologies they stick under the floor require the floors to be made out of materials they can't neccesarily make the walls out of. OR they may require greater thicknesses (insulation, or radiation shielding, for example) that might offer a barrier against phasing compared to the walls. For all we know, whatever powers the artificial gravity might require the floors to be made from different mateirals than the walls. :P
I really like the out of universe answer :) This kind of thing is why superweapons really suck for vs. Too much side bullshit to wade through. At least "torpedo go boom" is a straightforward concept.
True, it is the simplest answer, although it doesnt help in univrese much. REally I suppose we don't have to beat our heads over it TOO much. I mean the simple fact that differences occur, for whatever reason, suffices. That they can breathe, or pass through the walls but not the floors, points at obvious limitations to the phase cloaking that makes it harder to use as the sooper=dooper gamewinner it may get spun out to be. I also share your preference for the "staithforward" too :P
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Another more radical option genetic engineering at least one special live under UFP has the able making other see thing not real there. This race known as the Aenar how strict rule how to us their telepathic able like for example ban allow read mind permission. Now just think what happen UFP genetic starfleet officers was this able. UFP having Imperial star destroyer crew blow ships up. Across ethic reasons the UFP never did that. If I was come defense plan and anything I want that would be it.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Aenar
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Enigma »

JasonB wrote:Another more radical option genetic engineering at least one special live under UFP has the able making other see thing not real there. This race known as the Aenar how strict rule how to us their telepathic able like for example ban allow read mind permission. Now just think what happen UFP genetic starfleet officers was this able. UFP having Imperial star destroyer crew blow ships up. Across ethic reasons the UFP never did that. If I was come defense plan and anything I want that would be it.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Aenar
And have the whole UFP be in an uproar and strap you on the roof of a runabout and then hit the warp drive while still in Earth's stmosphere.

You'll have to force the Aenar to reverse their ban and that won't sit well with them nor with the rest of the Federation members.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Enigma wrote:
JasonB wrote:Another more radical option genetic engineering at least one special live under UFP has the able making other see thing not real there. This race known as the Aenar how strict rule how to us their telepathic able like for example ban allow read mind permission. Now just think what happen UFP genetic starfleet officers was this able. UFP having Imperial star destroyer crew blow ships up. Across ethic reasons the UFP never did that. If I was come defense plan and anything I want that would be it.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Aenar
And have the whole UFP be in an uproar and strap you on the roof of a runabout and then hit the warp drive while still in Earth's stmosphere.

You'll have to force the Aenar to reverse their ban and that won't sit well with them nor with the rest of the Federation members.
Enigma in practice I could clone them or genetic engineer UFP personal with their that telepathic ability .
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Enigma »

Just because you can does not mean your people will accept it. The civilians are basically peace loving hippies and to reverse several ethical laws against cloning and genetic engineering will piss them off.

Enjoy that runabout ride.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Enigma wrote:Just because you can does not mean your people will accept it. The civilians are basically peace loving hippies and to reverse several ethical laws against cloning and genetic engineering will piss them off.

Enjoy that runabout ride.
I did think sector 31 care much ethic laws if UFP Council give them green light I think allow it.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Enigma »

JasonB wrote:
Enigma wrote:Just because you can does not mean your people will accept it. The civilians are basically peace loving hippies and to reverse several ethical laws against cloning and genetic engineering will piss them off.

Enjoy that runabout ride.
I did think sector 31 care much ethic laws if UFP Council give them green light I think allow it.
You didn't say Section 31, shit-fucker. Plus Section 31 operates outside Federation laws and if the Council gets a whiff of their plans and you collusion, they'll still be in an uproar.

Have fun on that runabout ride.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

It would help if Section-31's exactl capabilities and limits were very well defined. All too often I simply see them used just as an excuse to justify some of the more comic-book style tactics come up with to "win" for Trek.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Connor MacLeod wrote:It would help if Section-31's exactl capabilities and limits were very well defined. All too often I simply see them used just as an excuse to justify some of the more comic-book style tactics come up with to "win" for Trek.
They poorly define at best however we known they have science team has the ability design biological weapon one year after the Dominion cold war had start. We known had something call banes cannon. If wish see evidence for this just watch this video form 3 minute and 37 seconds to about 3 minute and 47 listen part Doctor Bashir say” only my god sector 31 had a banes cannon”.
We did not known banes cannon is or how powerful weapon it is. So show they some access to military technology and as for spacecraft they would have at least shuttlecarfts maybe starships.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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That was a dream sequence where Sloan was deliberately trying to occupy Bashir's interest until they died together. Keeping that in mind, none of what Bashir finds in there might be true. It's also completely irrelevant that they had a "Banes Cannon" when we never see one in action anywhere in Trek.

As for the biological agent, you might remember that the effectiveness of it relied for a good part on a certain quirk of the Founders, the "let's share everything with everyone" thing they had going on with the Great Link. How's that going to be replicated with the Empire?
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Which only gets back to the precise problem. You could in theory interpret Section 31 to have ANY sort of resources you wanted so long as it doesn't require proof. (massive fleet of warships? Hey why not! Sophisticated military weaponry? Sure! Tons of stealth and doomsday weapons? Quite probably! Hell why not even throw in time travel?) But then it runs into the problem that, given the whole reason for Section 31 existing.. it for some reason seems not to be able to employ these resources to the degree you'd think they ought to. Whilst I hate using the "why don't they do x, y, z" argument willy nilly, and I am sure we can contrive alot of reasons WHY they might not have been able to do x,y,z (eg "they were off taking care of some other threat and couldn't use it here.") it really strats getting complicated and stretching plausibility. I mean hell, even if they have weapons technology and starships, that doesn't mean they have them in significant quantitites.

When you get down to it, Section 31's primarry abilities seem to center around sabotage, subversion and even assasination rather than anything overtly brute force. That isn't to say they couldn't be effective in those venues against other threats, but It doesn't make them an automatic game winner either (In fact I'd argue that Sisko, Janeway, and Picard together did more to combat external threats to the Federation than all of Section 31 combined.)
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Then there's the fact that the Empire has an intelligence service of its own, so it's not like Section 31 could operate with impunity anyway. Section 31, unlike the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order also aren't ever shown to have any troops of their own and even if they had, what would a few more ships matter even if they represented the cusp of federation technology?
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

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Connor MacLeod wrote:Which only gets back to the precise problem. You could in theory interpret Section 31 to have ANY sort of resources you wanted so long as it doesn't require proof. (massive fleet of warships? Hey why not! Sophisticated military weaponry? Sure! Tons of stealth and doomsday weapons? Quite probably! Hell why not even throw in time travel?) But then it runs into the problem that, given the whole reason for Section 31 existing.. it for some reason seems not to be able to employ these resources to the degree you'd think they ought to. Whilst I hate using the "why don't they do x, y, z" argument willy nilly, and I am sure we can contrive alot of reasons WHY they might not have been able to do x,y,z (eg "they were off taking care of some other threat and couldn't use it here.") it really strats getting complicated and stretching plausibility. I mean hell, even if they have weapons technology and starships, that doesn't mean they have them in significant quantitites.

When you get down to it, Section 31's primarry abilities seem to center around sabotage, subversion and even assasination rather than anything overtly brute force. That isn't to say they couldn't be effective in those venues against other threats, but It doesn't make them an automatic game winner either (In fact I'd argue that Sisko, Janeway, and Picard together did more to combat external threats to the Federation than all of Section 31 combined.)

Were biological attack counts on another race count sabotage, subersion or assassination. Biological weapon does count dome day weapon if used right and that cannon good Dr scared sore sounds like one. Show Ent show Malcolm try to get information form sector 31 office how to land Mars undetected. Fact they had planning to action Mar suggestion have at least some shuttlecrafts during 22 century. If they fleet most likely made out smell starship powerful sensor and phase cloaking device. We have no idea how get rid threats or way get rid threat UFP very survival.

However another possible UFP surly slow Empire down be the Omega molecule if has hyperspace and subspace are same. It could turn few hour journey few decade journey. Mean Empire trying wait effects of the omega molecule ware off UFP working missiles armed nova bomb and phase cloaking device streamline drive on it threat Empire after effect omega molecule wears off.
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Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)

Post by Darth Tedious »

Can anyone make out what he's attempting to say? I got some wank about phase cloaks and Omega particles, but that was all I could decipher...
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