I believe that Wiccanism is a bit nonsensical.

Now, don't get me wrong: I did have a Wiccan friend once. however, I believe that the religion that these Wiccans have is a bit: degenerated.

Let me explain. The great Carl Jung noted that religions, like many other things, also evolved. He listed three stages:

(1) The Pagan stage: Where Early Man worshipped Nature, not knwoing scien or logic, and came up with myths and superstitions

(2) The Questioning Stage: Where Man still worshipped Nature, but question worship, and started to acquire knowlegde of science, reason, and logic,

and the stage we're in:

(3) The Monotheistic stage: Where Man ditched away Nature worship, believeing ina certain deity that created Nature and was responsible for unknown phenomena. Everything else was Nature's doing.

Now, these Wiccans are degenrates in believeing an ancient form of religion. there may be some hidden truths, but really: are there not truths that can be found in s many other religions ?

I believe that Religion must constantly evolve, to better itself and ask new questions.

Also, if these Wiccans love Nature so much, why do they still live in Society ? WHy can't they live in the forest, and not learn anything else but what nature teaches them, and depend on nature for everything, even food, shelter ? WHy should they still live in specially buitl houses.

Now, I do commune with Nature. I do have a garden. And I do appreciate it. but I don't believe that Nature is superior. Nothing is. Man has managed to control Nature, and Nature may retaliate, but so will we. I'd rather not give in to Nature.

But that's my opinion. I may be wrong, but, I'd like to voice it out.

I am unfamiliar with the precepts of this 'Wiccanism', but if this representation is correct, than I am in agreement with the poster. Of course we must strive to control and harness the environment, not the other way round, in fact, that is a rather good definition for civilization, as well as the way nature itself functions. To assume otherwise, and to claim that animals live in 'harmony' with nature is to betray wishful thinking of the highest degree.

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"Intellectual rigor annoys people because it interferes with the pleasure they derive from allowing their wishes to be the fathers of their thoughts." - George F. Will

"If theory and reality diverges, change reality." - Josef Stalin

Jung's opinion on religeon falls into the same trap of his opinion on psychology; he lets completely undefended assumptions form the basis of his concrete lists.

Whether someone worships "mother earth," an all-powerful spiritual master, or nothing at all is a decision reached through a large number of different factors. In closed or tightly controlled societies, religeon is dictated by the leaders of the society (such as in the United States in the 1950s, where non-christians were actively excluded from public society); in a liberal and free society (such as contemporary U.S. and western Europe) these constraints do not exist, allowing people to choose their own faith or lack thereof.

Hmmm, I seem to be drifting off topic into rant land. I think I got my point off, if not I'll clarify tomorrow =)

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Banzai!

All religions are nonsensical by definition, because they invent mystical phenomena in order to explain that which they do not understand. The only distinction is between harmful and harmless variants.

Carl Jung was full of shit. It was very popular for a time to believe that religion "evolved" toward its apex, which was presumably monotheism. However, monotheistic religions date all the way back to Akhenaten. Jung was merely falling for Christian egocentrism, which held that Christianity was the one true, "best" religion, that all other religions were just searching for the truth, and that everyone would stop searching once they found Christ, yadda yadda yadda.

By that token, Christians are degenerates for believing in 2000 year old religion. The Norse religion is much newer, and Scientology is one of the newest.

Religion is the intellectual precursor to science; it provides irrational answers for questions because primitive Man lacks the intellectual capacity to devise rational answers or accept that there are certain things he does not yet understand (and so he must invent something to fill in the gaps).

No religion completely follows its precepts. How many Christians take that "it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven" thing seriously, especially when you consider that the entire western world is "rich" in relation to the rest of the globe?

To be honest, I consider nature-worshippers quite a bit more rational than people who worship invisible deities in the sky. At least nature is known to exist.

I agree with IDMR the most here. Worshipping Nature may be fine, perhaps, but I don't believe that we should let Nature ahve control over us. That, in my opinion, is rubbish, since it prevents from progressing. Rather, we should respect, but still control, and harness it. Man's true power should come from controlling Nature. Once again, that's my opinion.

Personaly I belive its very easy not to screw over nature while still doing what you what and thanks to the screaming of Ego-Nuts I know exactly who to hold up to prove this. Oil companys, seriously take a look at say the pipe-lines and drilling up in the tip of Canadian and Alayska. After a year or two the local wild-life has adjusted. They ignore the workers, they ignore the equipment and genrealy do what they did before

On the other matter to use Evolove and Religion in the same sentance is a great oxymoron.

URr, right.... (1) I think you have some very odd ideas of what Wicca and Paganism in general is.
(2) ...That entire "scale" is nonsensical, if your going to subscribe things you don't know to some supernatural force...why does it matter if you believe its a tree or a 500 Gods or 1 god?



......bizarre concept, evolving religion. there are no new questions to ask, everything is "God's will"



Illogical. Why don't Christians follow the Ten Commandments?



Thank you, that has to be the most amusing thing I've heard all day. Nature was here when man was still a microscopic bit of non-sentient goo, and nature will be here long after we've bombed ourselves into oblivion. Control nature..right, it's raining outside and I don't want to get wet, do you suppose if I go outside and tell it to stop it will, in fear of my mighty Manliness? Every other life form on this planet has ways to keep itself comfortable, we just happen to slap concrete over everything and call it superiority

No, I am not an eco-nut, I just happen to respect nature and get a kick out of this "Man Rules!!!" idea.

Do you want to have an irritating experience? Sit and listen to a 15 year old Wiccan with a nose ring tell you how her religion is the oldest one on Earth, and how all religions evolved (or stole) from Wicca. NOT animism or generic paganism--the SPECIFIC set of beliefs and practices known as modern-day Wicca. If you point out that Wicca was invented in this century as a mish-mash of Celtic and Norse mythology, Eastern spiritualism (concepts of karma, etc.), and New Age pseudoscience, she will paitently explain that Wicca is the oldest religion on Earth and all other religions are derived from it. Also, don't point out that her magic can't be experimentally verified. Either A) she'll perform the spell and then concoct a definition of success so broad that she can claim it's worked if you, her, or a passing sparrow so much as fart sideways, B) there's some mystical nonsense definition of "magic spell" that gets her off the hook from actually performing, or, C) my favorite, your pessimism will ruin the magic so she's not going to do it in front of you unless you agree in your heart not to be all, you know, rational and stuff. Bonus irritation points if she's a vegan. Double bonus points if she insists on spelling woman "womyn". Triple bonus points if she listens to Enya, and infinity plus one points if she actually plays Enya in your presence.

Nature-worshippers believe that Nature Has A Plan, and that by doing anything to interfere with the Perfect Goodness of Nature, we are fucking everything up.

The problem is that we are part of nature too, and as a matter of biological history, every species on this planet has affected its environment. The fact that we are no exception does not make us impure, or obscene, or evil.

However, I reiterate that a Nature-worshipper is more rational than a God-worshipper. At least nature exists; their irrationality is limited to their inane belief that it is perfect. God-worshippers have two levels of irrationality; they believe in something which is not known to exist, and then they believe this imaginary deity is perfect.

[Inquisitor]The infection is worse than I feared.[/Inquisitor]

Sounds like the classical set of superstition designed to counter rationality...

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"Intellectual rigor annoys people because it interferes with the pleasure they derive from allowing their wishes to be the fathers of their thoughts." - George F. Will

"If theory and reality diverges, change reality." - Josef Stalin

Well, I put it to you that it is less inane to believe something imaginery perfect then something which actually exists. At any rate, I do agree (as it it is not already clear) that their belief if a perfect and harmonious nature is laughable - nature, however one emight chose to define it, is not even a balance, at best a steady state, a constantly changing entity, I fail to see how it might be perfect.

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"Intellectual rigor annoys people because it interferes with the pleasure they derive from allowing their wishes to be the fathers of their thoughts." - George F. Will

"If theory and reality diverges, change reality." - Josef Stalin

And then sit down and talk to a real Wiccan who wouldn't even mention it unless you brought it up, would know about Wicca's roots, probably does like Enya And doesn't do "parlor tricks".

I spent a lot of time with Wiccans in high school...largely because I was foolish enough to let it be known that I was agnostic and was immediately labelled a "Devil Worshipper" by all the good god-fearing Christians in town only natural that I'd fall in with the rest of the Satanists A lot of people have the wrong idea about them because of the ridiculously commercialized view they have of it, and plus all the "I'm Wiccan because its rebellious and cool" Goths running around giving them a bad name.

I had a few Wiccan friends who did it for their own reasons, and a few who did it because it's what all the non-conformists did . The ones who did it for their own reasons, they're all agnostic now. The ones who did it to be non-conformist, they're still out buying crystals, swearing up, down, and sideways they can predict the future, and explaining the history of religion to me.

Perhaps. Yeah, those are the bad ones. But, overall, I have read about the real Wiccanism, and I disagree with it mostly. Maybe I'm wrong, but rituals like jumping over fire, naked, is pointless, unless you are living in the forest. Naked. WHich they aren't. Ideally, Wiccans should live in the forests, totally alienated from the outside world, if they want to remain true to nature.



Irritating indeed. Very much illgoical, and these are the Wiccans I don't like: the disillsuioned teens, who talk mere cockerel. They hardly differ from creationists.



I agree wholheartedly on this point. The only other way I can lok at it is from the Aristotlean view: that there's a hidden perfection in Nature, even at its smallest level. Even then, yeah, I still believe that Nature is not perfect at all, and, while we should respect it, we shouldn't bow to it.

I am familiar with this...
Let say :
After the sucess of the 19 century evolution became a modism. It was the paradigm and everything had to evolve. So Marx made economy evolve in the society, Jung did it with religion. It was easy to think he (his society) was the most recent and therefore the upper one and all that is old was inferior, but evolved. It acctually helped a lot with racism and Europeancentrism- hence for example Africans would be in the lower step. (Also this evolve thing would lead to atheism as the final step to be a individual better, but that is a another subject). So he just got the religions groups and organized it in a step with the presunption that Monoteism - which was the basic religion organization of society back them - was superior.
That is all. But like anyone can point: Monoteism have actually more than 3000 years and happened first in Egypt...

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Muffin is food. Food is good. I am a Muffin. I am good.

I find Wiccans easier to put up with than most other religious types. At least they don't go around telling everyone not to screw.

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If Religion and Politics were characters on a soap opera, Religion would be the one that goes insane with jealousy over Politics' intimate relationship with Reality, and secretly murder Politics in the night, skin the corpse, and run around its apartment wearing the skin like a cape shouting "My votes now! All votes for me! Wheeee!" -- Lagmonster

Not to re-hash what Wong said, but Carl Jung *was* full of shit.

As I noted in another thread somewhere, religion doesn't have 'stages'. It has *RITUAL* bonded to a political need to have people participate in said rituals bonded to a social need to feel a part of something bigger, something destined to exist and be great. That's about it. You can search your way back to the sun god Wong mentioned (who was taken out of the picture by the old guard, who manipulated the young next Pharaoh, Tutankhamen), and I believe even farther back to Hammurabi's declaration that Marduk (his god) was 'king' of all other god, to find the same thing that happened in Christianity - polytheism turning into monotheism by a people or person choosing their god as the 'most powerful, true' god, and in all cases except Christianity, sinking back into polytheism as the sect gets absorbed back into the masses.

Nothing like a good debate on religion, isn't there?



It's about as nonsensical as any other religion and less so than, say, snake-handling or Scientology.



I know this point's been made by other posters on this thread, but Jung's Three Stages are nonsense and so is the conclusion you seem to have drawn from them. Monotheism is at least 3500 years old, and the only reason man "ditched nature worship" was because the nature worshippers didn't have the military power to protect their way of life when the armies of the Gods or One True God (whomever that was) decided to take their land from them.



Nice thought. Pity that's not what actually happens in practise.



If Christians take their precepts so seriously, why do they live in specially built houses? Why haven't they sold off all their property, given up all their worldy wealth, and instead living in poverty? The Fundies are even less inclined to do so, and they claim the greatest fidelity to their "inerrant" Bibles. Quite the opposite —they operate according to a very self-serving doctrine of how wealth on Earth is the natural result of currying God's favour; an idea going right to John Calvin in the seventeenth century.



Oh really? Try believing that while living in an earthquake or hurricane zone, or somwhere in Tornado Alley and you'll find out just how well we've managed to "control Nature". Or better yet, spend a few years in Louisiana. We've been trying to control our rivers for decades now just to keep New Orleans and the towns in the lower Acadian parishes from being washed away. We manage to do it, but at a massive cost in money and effort, and Nature is constantly fighting back. New Orleans would begin to sink into the swampy mire on which it rests if the pumps here were out of action for as much as three days, and the river control efforts have had the side-effect of accelerating the erosion of the gulf coastal regions because the natural process of silt deposit has been halted. And eventually, Nature's going to win. It may take a hundred years or a thousand, but at some point, when the people here decide its not worth the effort to keep the gulf at bay any longer, they'll pull out and all this will vanish under the waters as if it had never been here.



Um, you wouldn't happen to have any of their addresses, would you, old bean? {joke}

Seriously, rituals like that are about as silly as any other religious practise, like, say, lining up to consume a wafer dipped in wine and effectively engaging in an act of ritualistic cannibalism.



Ideally, Christians should live in abject poverty if they want to remain true to their precepts. But they don't. Are they being hypocritical, or simply making a practical concession to the realities of the everyday world?



My understanding is that the earliest beliefs —shamanism, animism, Earth Mother worship— developed from the first human efforts to understand the world around them. They noticed that things seemed to follow patterns: women bled with the full moon, the moon itself changed through its cycle in the sky, the change of the seasons, the march of the sun through the sky throughout the year. They discerned patterns in these events, connected them together and made the conceptual leap that the world was alive as they were. Out of this came the first measurments of time and tracking of seasons to plant and harvest crops, which was necessary to survival and therefore did serve a very practical purpose. Early humans saw themselves as part of the living world and that their actions helped move the whole cycle of life. Beliefs along these lines are usually what is referred to as natural religion and constituted the best explanation of the world around them for the information they had at hand, but essentially, any Spirit(s) they eventually attributed as controlling these things was little more than their collective idea of the world writ large.

Revealed religion, on the other hand, derives from your classical Messages From The Gods —usually after the recipient of the "message" has starved himself half to death or ate too many of the Funny Mushrooms. The visions and voices, of course, sprang from the alteration of brain chemistry and the delusional states they fell into during which the Voices spoke to them. Revealed religion is wholly subjective depending upon the viewpoint of the Prophet/Seer. And once the process of writing down the Prophet's words begins to alter those words with successive interpretation, the message is progressively corrupted until the inevitable degeneration into dogma ensues, with the attendant schisms, purifications, interpretations, revisions, corrections, and the odd religious war and pogrom along the way. Revealed religions are the ones which are adapted as tools for the ruling power elite to create legitimacy for the regime by way of Divine ordination. But at the base of the cult is the fact that the Great God is nothing more than the ego of the Prophet writ large.

Of the two belief systems, natural religion at the least is connected to something with a slightly greater degree of objective reality to it than the model provided by Divine Revelation to a supposedly selected messenger who in most cases simply chowed down a little too much on the Funny Mushrooms or went a few days too long without food and water in the desert. But as we know, it is only when humans have been willing to toss the God Theory out the window (the Ionian Awakening, the Renaissaince and Enlightment all the way to the present day) that they've been able to make any real sense of the world around them and achieve any real progress.

Wiccans may be a bit silly at times, but as Darth Wong said, at least their beliefs are connected to something which has objective existence around them as opposed to the alleged Invisible Ghost in the Sky for which no testable evidence exists. Their mistake is in believing that Nature embodies Love for everything around it and exists in some sort of cosmic harmony with all life. It does not, and I doubt that primitive humans had any similar belief —especially considering that they had to wring their very survival from the world around them in a way which modern-day Wiccans aren't burdened with.