That time of the year again - Army seeks improved carbine

[Stark]

Regardless, a bog-standard 1.4x mag built-in is better than a $1000 ACOG 4x that is massive overkill for your average soldier.

And yeah, the Bundeswehr version has a dual sight, not the simple optics the export one has (which I believe is of the AUG 'bit of glass with circle drawn on' variety).

[Thanas]

Yeah, the made a newer version with quick detachable optics on a picatinny rail. They're still stick with that god-awful stock. Which is odd because the export versions they sold to Latvia and Spain have fully adjustable stocks instead.

No, the German Army version always had an integrated reflex sight/optics AFAIK. The G36A2 is the newer version where they used the superior Zeiss optics.

[Mr. Coffee]

And yeah, the Bundeswehr version has a dual sight, not the simple optics the export one has (which I believe is of the AUG 'bit of glass with circle drawn on' variety).

Yeah, we already said that on the last page, Captain Tryhard.

[Mr. Coffee]

Yeah, the made a newer version with quick detachable optics on a picatinny rail. They're still stick with that god-awful stock. Which is odd because the export versions they sold to Latvia and Spain have fully adjustable stocks instead.

No, the German Army version always had an integrated reflex sight/optics AFAIK. The G36A2 is the newer version where they used the superior Zeiss optics.

Groovy. Now all they need to do is add an adjustable stock and they'll have made rifle I honestly couldn't find anything to complain about.

[Stark]

Yeah, we already said that on the last page, Captain Tryhard.

Haha, be more butthurt. Hilariously you admit you're misinformed in the very next post; who's the REAL tryhard?

ITT US Army procurement = Mr Coffee's personal prefernences, and it's better to throw away an ACOG than learn how to work with integrated optics. No wonder the rifle procurement is so successful!

[Thanas]

And yeah, the Bundeswehr version has a dual sight, not the simple optics the export one has (which I believe is of the AUG 'bit of glass with circle drawn on' variety).

It also has a standard 3x magnification.

The standard German Army versions of the G36 are equipped with a ZF 3x4° dual optical sight that combines a 3x magnified telescopic sight (with the main reticule designed for firing at 200 m and bullet drop compensation markings for: 200, 400, 600 and 800 m crosshairs and a range-finding scale) and an unmagnified reflex red-dot sight (calibrated for firing at 200 m) mounted on top of the telescopic sight.

The G36A2 has the red-dot sight replaced with this beauty.


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So all in all, the G36 might be cheaper than a M4 due to not having that much need for accessories and I am also pretty sure that the US Army could get the same boni the German Army gets if they would ask nicely, so no need to pay several different companies for accessoires.

But I really doubt the US Army is serious about replacing their rifles. This will just end up as a waste of money for all corporations involved.

[Mr. Coffee]

Haha, be more butthurt. Hilariously you admit you're misinformed in the very next post; who's the REAL tryhard?

Seriously, do you actually have anything at all to add to the topic that isn't fucking trolling? Dude, everything you know about firearms you either read on Wiki an learned from a video game. Now fuck off, already.

ITT US Army procurement = Mr Coffee's personal prefernences, and it's better to throw away an ACOG than learn how to work with integrated optics. No wonder the rifle procurement is so successful!

Ok, quote where I said any such thing, Stark. Seriously, are off you fucking meds or something? No, really, quote where I said that, you lying piece of sperglording shit.

[Stark]

Uh oh, I don't base all ideas on civilian models, so I'm a wiki troll! Better flame Thanas for quoting wiki I guess... obviously he speaks from experience and is thus a better source, good old Commando Thanas.

Thanas, the German version is probably significantly more expensive than the export version, but almost certainly cheaper than buying a ludicrously expensive ACOG after-market and bolting it on.

[Thanas]

Thanas, the German version is probably significantly more expensive than the export version, but almost certainly cheaper than buying a ludicrously expensive ACOG after-market and bolting it on.

I really doubt they cost that much. The Bundeswehr was able to replace its entire inventory for around 600 EUR per weapon - that is the "standard" Army version with all the goodies I listed above. No doubt the USA could get the same deal if they bought bulk. The German Army bought 170.000 of them as a first order.

That is, to my understanding, cheaper than the upgrade kit for the M4.

(1200 for the improved version is also floating around, but that is a figure made by pacifist groups, so treat it with a gram of salt).

So giving that, it should cost the USA around 12-24 million EUR (let's make is a nice even Dollar figure of 35 million dollars) to replace their entire inventory.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Wait, wait. How is it less expensive to buy a weapon with a built-in optic that the US Army won't use, than to buy a weapon wiithout integrated sights and buy the optic they want?

[Mr. Coffee]

Uh oh, I don't base all ideas on civilian models, so I'm a wiki troll! Better flame Thanas for quoting wiki I guess... obviously he speaks from experience and is thus a better source, good old Commando Thanas.

Nice to see you dodging actually backing your bullshit cliam that I'm somehow arguing for the Army. Shit like that is why you're a troll, douche.

Thanas, the German version is probably significantly more expensive than the export version, but almost certainly cheaper than buying a ludicrously expensive ACOG after-market and bolting it on.

Going back to the M4, thanks to all of the companies out there that make AR pattern rifles, the civilian varients actually cost more than what the army buys from Colt. This is mostly due to two factors, the army is buying in bulk and Colt's rifles aren't even close to being manufactured to the same tolerances as other manufacturers like Bushmaster, Wilson Combat, or DPMS, never mind the higher end manufacturers like Noveske. But then again to me that's pretty much a personal bias against Colt, which to me is a company that's only still in business due to name recognition.

But yeah, ACOG can be a bit pricey, but Carl Zeiss optics ain't cheap either. But then good optics are like that.

[Thanas]

Wait, wait. How is it less expensive to buy a weapon with a built-in optic that the US Army won't use, than to buy a weapon wiithout integrated sights and buy the optic they want?

H&K got great relations with Zeiss optics, so they are able to purchase them at a lower price than they do on the free market, that would be my guess. Also, if you have three different companies, all of them want to make the biggest profit they can - Colt + the two addon manufacturers.

Other than that, beats me. Might just be that the huge bulk order cuts prices down.

But yeah, ACOG can be a bit pricey, but Carl Zeiss optics ain't cheap either. But then good optics are like that.

But the standard G36 has integrated Zeiss optics (made by a daughter company) already. All they changed for the newer version was the improved reflex sight.

[Stark]

Why won't they use it? The German army version is fine; I thought the US Army only bought ACOGs because they're off-the-shelf stuff to easily modify existing weapons, not because they honestly thought every soldier needed a precision 4x sight?

Thanas, I figured the optics cost what the Trijicon corp charges for their optics; ACOGs are very expensive. 600 Euro for the military version is way cheaper than I imagined.

[Mr. Coffee]

But the standard G36 has integrated Zeiss optics (made by a daughter company) already. All they changed for the newer version was the improved reflex sight.

Thanas, I wasn't saying anything bad about Zeiss optics. They make really good optics, dude. And if that reflex sight is the model I'm thinking it is they sell it for about $640 here.

[Thanas]

But the standard G36 has integrated Zeiss optics (made by a daughter company) already. All they changed for the newer version was the improved reflex sight.

Thanas, I wasn't saying anything bad about Zeiss optics. They make really good optics, dude. And if that reflex sight is the model I'm thinking it is they sell it for about $640 here.

Thanas, I figured the optics cost what the Trijicon corp charges for their optics; ACOGs are very expensive. 600 Euro for the military version is way cheaper than I imagined.

Just in case that was not clear: the German Army got the entire rifle for 600 EUR, which is about 800 $.

[Stark]

Yeah, that's the meaning I took. The ACOGs the Americans use are more expensive than that for just the sight, which is why I imagined there would be a sizable price difference between dual-sight/export versions from optics.

[Mr. Coffee]

[quote="Thanas"Just in case that was not clear: the German Army got the entire rifle for 600 EUR, which is about 800 $.[/quote]

Which makes me wonder what the fuck the Army is smoking, because the G36 is a better weapon than the M16/M4 and if the Army could get the same deal it costs $185-$200 less than what Colt is charging them for M16s and M4s.

As far as the ACOG goes, depending on what model they're purchasing for the US Army the optic itself costs as much or more than the rifle they're sticking it on. Then again, that's not really that out of the ordinary. Hell, I've got a couple of rifles scopes that cost much, much more than the rifles they're mounted on. But if your military can get a quality optic AND the rifle for less than the cost of what pay for just the rifle, then ya... Something is seriously fucked up with the Army.

[Stark]

Precision optics are expensive, and the ACOG is a premium product (I've heard it suggested the sights cost up to $2000 each which is ludicrous). Unless there's something wrong with the G36 optics that makes it unacceptable, it's crazy to go aftermarket but easier to sell as 'upgrades' instead of 'replacement' even if its more expensive. Even if you assume it costs around a thousand Euro a weapon, the money spent on the trials in the last decade would have re-equipped the army.

[Thanas]

Precision optics are expensive, and the ACOG is a premium product (I've heard it suggested the sights cost up to $2000 each which is ludicrous).

That's crazy. The best Zeiss optics offered for the G36 reportedly (according to said pacifists) raised the price to 1200 EUR in toto. Still, not seeing how the standard sights are insufficient, especially because "all" you get is a better reflex sight.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Why won't they use it? The German army version is fine; I thought the US Army only bought ACOGs because they're off-the-shelf stuff to easily modify existing weapons, not because they honestly thought every soldier needed a precision 4x sight?

No, as far as I'm aware the standard sight for the Army is still the M68 CCO an Aimpoint CompM2 and it has no magnification. Any idea how much H&K pays for the 3x and what the normal price is? The best I can find is a $700 and $1500 for Zeiss RSA-S 3x reflex sight.

[Thanas]

Interestingly, the German Army believes every soldier needs magnification, which is why they have a standard 3x magnification sight.


EDIT: Schatten, I have no idea. The standard rifle price is 600 EUR and already includes the magnification sights package cited above. Keep in mind that this was a bulk order of 170.000 rifles, though.

[Mr. Coffee]

Precision optics are expensive, and the ACOG is a premium product (I've heard it suggested the sights cost up to $2000 each which is ludicrous). Unless there's something wrong with the G36 optics that makes it unacceptable, it's crazy to go aftermarket but easier to sell as 'upgrades' instead of 'replacement' even if its more expensive. Even if you assume it costs around a thousand Euro a weapon, the money spent on the trials in the last decade would have re-equipped the army.

Depending on the model, yeah, there are actually seven different 4x ACOG models in the $1900-$2100 price range, but the average cost of their 4x offerings is around around $1200-$1300. Also, looking at their catalog, they've got four ACOG 4x optics listed as either Army Combat Rifle Optic or Marine Combat Rifle Optic, and the Marine ones are both $100 cheaper than the Army models.

Trijicon's products list, look under 4x Models

[Edward Yee]

About the nationalistic things: keep in mind that the US armies did adopt the Baretta 92, an Italian weapon over a Colt SSP or rthe S&W (another all-american maker!) M459 (some say that the M459 was removed from the competition unfairly). The same happened with the SOCOM OHS trials: the German Mark 23 M0 was picked above the American Colt's SOCOM OHS. The latter trials were especially controversial. So this may not be as simple as "americans don't want eurocommie guns hur hur".

I'll note that for the general-service pistol the two finalists were both non-American -- the other being SIG Sauer's P226. (The SEALs would later adopt the latter, presumably because of the M9 "slide failure" incidents. While I understand that the 1911 remains in certain SOF units' use, not sure whether the preference is due to "good ol' 1911" or "it's a .45.")

From what I saw, the $1900-$2100 models all include a red dot optic mounted atop the ACOG; the red dot price on its own page goes for up to ~$800.

[Marcus Aurelius]

About the nationalistic things: keep in mind that the US armies did adopt the Baretta 92, an Italian weapon over a Colt SSP or rthe S&W (another all-american maker!) M459 (some say that the M459 was removed from the competition unfairly). The same happened with the SOCOM OHS trials: the German Mark 23 M0 was picked above the American Colt's SOCOM OHS. The latter trials were especially controversial. So this may not be as simple as "americans don't want eurocommie guns hur hur".

I'll note that for the general-service pistol the two finalists were both non-American -- the other being SIG Sauer's P226. (The SEALs would later adopt the latter, presumably because of the M9 "slide failure" incidents. While I understand that the 1911 remains in certain SOF units' use, not sure whether the preference is due to "good ol' 1911" or "it's a .45.")

Probably the latter... I for one find the US Army pistol selection somewhat ironic, because apart from SOF any reasonably modern pistol would do the job. So, for the one weapon where the quality actually does not matter that much they went for the unpopular choice and selected a non-US model with a wimpy 9x19 mm round. They should have just selected a new American pistol in .45 and the troops would have been happy, as well as the manufacturer

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm just wondering how the hell they managed to make M-9 so horrible at first. I mean, it's really just a Baretta 92 and every one I've ever fired worked fine with the occasional fed fuck up that was usually caused by a bad cartridge.