Battle of Macragge...otherverse style

[Stravo]

Hive Fleet Behemoth from the Warhammer 40k universe is teleported en masse to the following universes and attempts to devour the planet in question. You may assume the following - Behemoth is as it is on the eve of the Battle of Macragge in terms of number and strength. The fluff is unfortunately vague but one can infer millions of various tyranid organisms assaulted Macragge as "thousands upon thousands of myosetic spores" rained down on the polar regions of Macragge during the final assault.

For those not well versed in the lore here are some links for further reading:

Behemoth

Battle for Macragge

Tyranids

Further assumptions

-- Other powers like the Force and such will affect the Tyranids without impediment however the Hivemind itself in unassailable through things like telepathy and such (Synapse can be disrupted by the proper ability)

-- Defensive forces are limited to what is in system as a defense. Assume the defenders have enough heads up to fully mobilize before the assaults so no surprise attacks


Your battlefields


Coruscant (Palpatine/ROTS era)
Coruscant (New Republic Era)
Marvel Earth
DC Earth
40K Mars
nBSG Twelve Colonies (pre-armagedon of course)
*snicker* Star Trek TNG Earth (Post-Nemesis)
Starship Troopers Earth


Have fun and let me know what you think. I think the comicverse invasions have the most potential for coolness though the lower power level Marvel Earth is doomed IMO while DC might pull this out with some sort of heroic assault of the Tyranid Hive fleet from folks like GL and Superman.

nBSG has some potential to fend off the assault with liberal use of nukes and heavy battlestar fire but once on the ground I think the Colonials are fucked.

For Coruscant I imagine a perverted Battle of Coruscant from the opening of ROTS.

40K Mars intrigues me just on the image of Titans unleashed on the plains of Mars blasting away at the oncoming hordes while reinforcements from Earth battle in space above. I believe there is little Astartes presence in the solar system (I could be wrong) so this is a straight up fight between Imperial Guard stationed in the solar system and Mechanicum forces against the Tyranids.

[OmegaChief]

Well let's take a gander at what might happen then.

The thing about the Wars examples is the 'nids would have no way to bring down Coruscants planetary shield (Or at least had nothing with that magnitude of firepower when I last checked thier lore), meaning in both time peroids the 'nids get stranded in space over Coruscant and shot to peices by the defending fleets.

As for the comic book verses, well Marvel has Professor X who might be able to do some tapping into the Hive mind thing, but then again it could drive him utterly insane, it's kinda hard to say.

As for DC, all they have to do is get the big heavy hitting heroes to buy enough time for Batman to prep his anti-tyranid weapons

40K Mars sits in the most heaviliy fortified system in the Imperium, along with your legions of titans, massive defence fleets and some of the best tech the Imperium still has functional. There may be a few odd Space Marines around on business (Or training to become tech marines) and a chance that the Imperial Fists might be in system (Theys till drop by Terra occasionally right?). I also think Mars is the homeport of Battlefleet Solar too, so my guess is they'd fight the 'nids to a stand still, but there'd probably be the usual massive casulties, though perhaps not quite as bad as loosing the entire First Company.

nBSG, well depends how nuke happy the Colonials are willing to be once they landed, that said we know almost nothing abotu Colonial ground forces, so a tricky one but one that doesn't look good for the Colonials.

Poor TNG earth, you never do well in these crossovers do you? Unless the Enterprise is on-station to treknobabble them out of it I think we can wave goodbye to teh Federation.

Ah, which Starship Troopers earth? The Movie or the Book?

[Serafina]

Quick an dirty:
-Coruscant (either): SW wins due to it's defenses
-Marvel Earth: Should loose, there are just too many Nids.
-DC Earth: Same thing
-40K Mars: wins by a good margin, given that it has massive fleet support and a huge amount of troops.
-nBSG: looses, can't withstand 40K-level firepower etc.
-Star Trek Earth: Has no army to speak of any only a few escorts by 40K standard. Obvious outcome.
-Starship Troopers earth: Can fight, but will most likely lose due to lack of meaningful fleet support and amount of troops. Assuming that it is from the novel, the movie version will be even worse off.

[Stravo]

For Starship troopers just assume both versions.

The more I think about ground combat and nBSG from the examples of what we saw in the show such as the episodes on Kobol and the rescue mission to Caprica as well as the defense of the Algae planet the ground fighting was not much more complicated than what we saw now on Earth so I think given those examples the Colonials are really screwed if the nids get on the ground. Then again we have not seen any examples of Colonials using heavy armor or artillery so using examples of what are essentially ship borne marines fighting on the ground may not be fair to the Colonials.

[OmegaChief]

Which was my point, all the show ever showed us were the remnants of two Battlestars marine forces, we've no clue about the detials of the groundforces, though thier ability to call in orbital nuclear artillary should be noted.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

They won't have that ability with the Tyranids. Tyranid ships have firepower several orders of magnitude greater than anything nBSG has to offer, and there are millions of Tyranid ships. The Tyranids will have space superiority and can digest the 12 colonies at their leisure.

[Serafina]

And carpet-nuking your own planets is not exactly a winning strategy - especially since some Nids are probably going to survive this.

By the way, bioweapons are extremely unlikely to work on a large scale. Tyranids can out-evolve IoM-virusbombs, which are pretty much "kill every living thing" to everything else. You can kill them with them, but you can't poke a needle into a single Nid (even an important one) and kill all of them by means of disease.

Of the presented combatants, only Star Wars and obviously 40K have the means to stop a hive fleet. That's pretty much how the Battle for Macragge was won originally - hold them back long enough and then blow up their important ships with the giant fleet you bough time to assemble.

SW doesn't need as much time to assemble a fleet, and Coruscant is a damn big target anyway. By the way, the shield genderator is likely to be a non-factor - given the incredible amount of supplies Coruscant needs and the large poor population, starting Genestealer cults should be easy. And since they can compete with the IoM-military, they can do the same with SW-military.
Either way, SW is still likely to win since they can easily blow up the fleet itself.

Both comic-worlds don't really have the means to fight against the fleet. And i don't see them stop several sagans of Tyranids either.

Mars has a large fleet readily availbe and probably stronger ground defenses than Macragge. They probably will have a hard time to stop a whole hive-fleet in ground combat (so hard that i think they won't do it), but Battlefleet Solar, the Mars defenses and the Lunar defenses (which, IIRC, contain a very large scale nova cannon that even has inter-system range) will make short work of the fleet itself.

NBSG looses both in space and on the ground. They are just out-competed by orders of magnitudes. Their orbital support is worthless and quickly destroyed, and they ground forces are just overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
And they don't have a large enough fleet to destroy the Hive fleet anyway.

The same goes for Star Trek, except that it's even worse.

I don't think Starship Troopers has a good enough fleet to take out the Hive fleet, and they just can't stop the Tyranids on the ground. Nids are most likely even worse than bugs, and they already had problems with those.

[Batman]

DC doesn't NEED time for me to whip up the anti-Tyranid batspray. DC Earth has faced worse than this and won (OWAW, anybody?) We have two Kryptonians, two Martians, no less than FOUR Green Lanterns, the entire bleeping Marvel family, ALL of them Superman level if not more (which these days once again means 'can move planets all by his or her lonesome and flat out IGNORE GT events going off in their face'), half a dozen or so speedsters, several if not all of them with FTL capacity, and walking/floating talking turbolaser heroes up the wazoo. And that's just off the top of my head. The 'Nids get eaten.
Marvel Earth they would probably manage to LAND. Wether that's going to do them any good remains to be seen. While the dial doesn't go up quite as far it DOES go up pretty far. Thor, Hercules, the Jolly Green Giant, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Wonder Man and even Iron Man should easily be more than a match for the Tyranids once they hit atmosphere.
Coruscant-since they can't get through the shield, they'll get eaten by the defending fleets.
Trek-somebody on the Big E obviously comes up with a treknobabble solution just in time, but realistically, they're likely doomed.
nBSG is doomed period (and good riddance).

[OsirisLord]

1. Star Wars Coruscant: The Tyranids would probably send in Genestealer infiltrators down to the planet on ships. Then guided by the Hivemind they would find ways to sabotage the planetary shield generators so billions of mystic spores would rain down on the planet. That's assuming the Tryanids get prep time and aren't teleported right onto Coruscant space right then and there. In which case the fleets that protect Coruscant would hold the Tryanids off while their mystic spores are destroyed by the planetary shields. They eventually get destroyed in an epic ship battle above the planet. Either way the outcome will be determined in space.

2. Marvel Universe: You know the Marvel universe has an army of superheroes in wait. And please don't give Marvel another reason to do another massive crossover event about alien invaders.

3. DC Universe: Somewhere between Superman and the Green Lanterns I'd say Earth has an even better shot in this universe.

4. 40K Mars: Why not just say 40K Terra and get over it. If the constant massive fleet that's always parked around Mars can't stop the Tyranids then the even bigger constant massive fleet around Terra will. And while it's not their area of expertise and I'm sure the Ordo Malleus would sent forces over from Saturn if the Sol System was under siege. Again, epic space battle, but the Tyranids would be utterly crushed.

5. nBSG: BSG has tons of huge top of the line ships, (like 40K) and zero problem with using nuclear weapons in space. That being said the Colonial fleet has nothing to protect them from Tryanid spores unloading troops on their ships. So Genestealers would eat the Colonial ships inside and out. On ground they stand no chance.

6. Star Trek: Starfleet had their asses kicked at Wolf-359 by one Borg Cube. On the other hand they have shields and Tyranids don't, and I believe photon torpedos have a bigger yield then nuclear missiles. So they have better protection but the Tyranids are without number and the biggest ship Starfleet has would be the equivilant of an escort in the 40k universe. And at least the Colonial Fleet has marines and a standing army. Starfleet doesn't so any foothold made on a planet and they would be doomed.

7. Star Ship Troopers: What's the difference?

[OmegaChief]

One question that's been bugging me about the order of Tyranid bioship firepower, when last I checked 'nid bioships attaacked with tentcles, ramming, biting and spewing acid and so on.

Now I may be wrong, and if I am please correct me, but I don't think any of the afformentioned capabilities give then firepower on the Imperium/Star Wars empire kinda magnitude.

Though they do somehow down he void shields of the Imperiums ships, hmmm, conundrum.

[Tasoth]

With the comic worlds, don't the Tyranids have Alpha+ category psykers with Zoanthropes? From what I've read, that would easily place them at or above the level of most high end super heroes. There is also the question as to whether warp based powers would have the same effect on Superman as magic powers and other such heroes weak against magic.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

They have bio-plasma (whatever that is) and projectile weapons. I believe they also have some psyker-style weapons, like a 40k ship-sized Zoanthrope, but I don't know how canon that is.

[Sinewmire]

Coruscant (Palpatine/ROTS era)
Coruscant (New Republic Era)
Marvel Earth
DC Earth
40K Mars
nBSG Twelve Colonies (pre-armagedon of course)
*snicker* Star Trek TNG Earth (Post-Nemesis)
Starship Troopers Earth

Well, I think we've established that Star Wars universe is far superior in space to 40k in comparison threads (speed and firepower), and probably equalish on the ground. As such, if the Nids can actually get onto Coruscant, the huge civilian population is in for an absolute nightmare, and the multi-level nature of Coruscant will make support and artillery an issue. I'd imagine the Empire would win thanks to overwhelming numerical superiority and it's ability to bring in ships and troops from accross the Galaxy in hours. Also I can't imagine the most strident rebel backing the Empire against the 'nids.
Space is a kerbstomp by the Empire, of course.

Marvel or DC Earth... can't say I know a great deal about it, but I imagine even if Superman and Iron man and all the hard hitters kill thousands of tyranids each, that still leaves plenty to kill everone else. I'm not sure how the psychics and telepaths would handle the Shadow in the Warp. Badly, I suspect. Nids unless Superman flies backwards around the world and turning back time!

40k Mars? Imperium wins another costly victory. The Inquisition has a strong presence in the Solar System so Deathwatch are involved. The Grey Knights are on Io, if I recall, and whilst they may be specialist Daemon fighters, if Mars is attacked we can probably count on their support. The Imperial Fists still garrison Earth, I believe. Massive fleet strength here and I can't imagine them not having any warning of invasion either.

I haven't watch BSG, so I couldn't say.

Trek. Oh trek. You poor doomed fools. Slaughtered like cattle and eaten in a matter of days. I would LOVE to see Troi's reaction to the shadow in the warp.

Starship troopers book doesn't seem to be sufficiently militarised to stop an invasion on the scale of Behemoth.

Starship troopers movie doesn't even seem to have tanks, close air support, recon or artillery. No contest.

Tyranid ships use bio-plasma which is treated in game-terms as a Lance strike, so it's high powered and penetrative but is mentioned it's not as fast as regular weapons, about the same speed as a bomber attack which severely limits the range.

They also use "pyro-acidic batteries"

These Tyranid weapons work by launching compact organic shells containing virulent toxins and pyro-acids. These can cause
considerable damage on impact, but it is the release of their ravening payloads into the confines of a ship that can prove the most
deadly. Pyro-acidic battery fire is worked out in the same way as an ordinary ship’s weapon battery. Any ship which is hit by pyro-acid weapons has a chance that they will continue to be eaten away by the deadly bio-agents.

So basically corrosive/incendiary warheads.

Tyranid ships also have their own equivalent of fighters, assault boats and boarding torpedoes which function in the same way as the Imperium's.

On shields

Tyranid ships do not have turrets or shields in the normal sense, and instead rely on emitting a constantly replenished physical barrier of spore clouds. Every spore is a Pandora’s box of viral compounds, acids and even nucleonic mutagens capable of eating through hull armour with alarming speed. The combined effect of the millions of spores produces an ablative armour effect as they absorb weapons fire and ordnance directed at the bio-ship they surround.

They'd work on modern warheads and trek's pisspoor weapons, but the Empire's high-powered weaponry would cut through organic spores like hot knives through butter. I can't say I'd like to be flying a y wing or a tie-bomber in a cloud of those spores though.

[Hawkwings]

If the Tyranids made it onto Coruscant... well the Empire might be able to CONTAIN them but they sure as hell would never be able to completely eliminate them. Coruscant is the equivalent of a massive hive world, complete with dark dank lower regions that are just begging to be taken over by Tyranids.

[Teleros]

Well, I think we've established that Star Wars universe is far superior in space to 40k in comparison threads (speed and firepower), and probably equalish on the ground.

I thought they were fairly close in terms of firepower. Anyway...

40k Mars? Imperium wins another costly victory. The Inquisition has a strong presence in the Solar System so Deathwatch are involved. The Grey Knights are on Io, if I recall, and whilst they may be specialist Daemon fighters, if Mars is attacked we can probably count on their support. The Imperial Fists still garrison Earth, I believe. Massive fleet strength here and I can't imagine them not having any warning of invasion either.

IoM should stomp all over the Tyranids given how absurdly powerful Sol's defences are.

Tyranid ships do not have turrets or shields in the normal sense, and instead rely on emitting a constantly replenished physical barrier of spore clouds. Every spore is a Pandora’s box of viral compounds, acids and even nucleonic mutagens capable of eating through hull armour with alarming speed. The combined effect of the millions of spores produces an ablative armour effect as they absorb weapons fire and ordnance directed at the bio-ship they surround.

They'd work on modern warheads and trek's pisspoor weapons, but the Empire's high-powered weaponry would cut through organic spores like hot knives through butter. I can't say I'd like to be flying a y wing or a tie-bomber in a cloud of those spores though.

I think it's worth quoting the full rules for those spores (plus some other Tyranid fleet rules):

SPORES
Tyranid ships do not have turrets or shields in the normal sense, and instead rely on emitting a constantly replenished physical barrier of spore clouds. Every spore is a Pandora’s box of viral compounds, acids and even nucleonic mutagens capable of eating through hull armour with alarming speed. The combined effect of the millions of spores produces an ablative armour effect as they absorb weapons fire and ordnance directed at the bio-ship they surround. Tyranid vessels at the beginning of their turn have a number of spore clouds equal to their number of spore cysts, which are specified in the bioship’s characteristics. Spores are automatically regenerated at the beginning of a player’s turn in the same manner as shields. Spore clouds are not cumulative and never exceed the spore cyst strength of a given vessel, they are also unaffected by the ship’s special orders. If a Tyranid ship is crippled, its spore cyst strength is not affected as the vessel’s self-defence organisms go into overtime to try to protect their host creature.

Spores as Shields
A spore cloud will absorb any hit generated by weapons fire except from those that specifically ignore shields, such as Warp cannon or Particle Whip rolls of 6. Special weapons designed to affect shields will affect spore clouds in an identical manner. Spore clouds are affected by Blast markers just like shields on an ordinary ship, place a marker in base contact for each cloud that absorbs a hit. Spores will also protect a bio-ship against shooting and potential damage from celestial phenomena in the same manner as shields. If an enemy ship gets in base contact with a Tyranid vessel it will suffer spore impacts, a blast marker is placed in contact with the two ships’ bases before any other effects are calculated (effectively knocking down one spore shield on the Tyranid ship.) Unshielded vessels (including those only protected by holofields) suffer an automatic hit instead (ie, don’t roll a dice), the spore automatically causes one hit (with the normal chance of critical damage).

Spores as Turrets
If attacked by ordnance a bio-ship treats its spore cysts as the number of turrets it can bring to bear. Each Blast marker in contact with the ship will reduce one spore cloud to hitting on a 6+ instead of 4+. Unlike normal turret fire, both torpedoes and attack craft can be targeted by the spores in the same turn. Bio-ships can mass their spore cysts in close formation against ordnance as described for other ships, but they do not gain any shielding benefits by doing so. Tyranid spore clouds will NOT intercept Tyranid ordnance.

Kraken Special Rules
Kraken have no spore cysts but are amazingly durable and capable of regenerating damage. As such Kraken count as always being on Brace for Impact special orders when they take damage, receiving a 4+ save against each hit sustained, including those sustained when rolling a 6 for moving through blast markers. This ability in no way affects the Kraken and they may use other special orders as normal.

BFG Campaigns Ship Upgrade: Mucous Membrane
The bio ship is covered with a slimy coat of mucous making it difficult for relatively slower moving ordnance to attack or damage it effectively. Bombers and assault boats suffer a -1 modifier (in addition to any other modifiers) when rolling their Attack roll, and all torpedoes must roll +1 to hit (maximum of 6+). Ranged weapon hits remain unaffected.

Given that the firepower stats in the rules represent god-only-knows how many gigatons of energy, those spores are both extremely dangerous and extremely durable.

[Srelex]

If the Tyranids made it onto Coruscant... well the Empire might be able to CONTAIN them but they sure as hell would never be able to completely eliminate them. Coruscant is the equivalent of a massive hive world, complete with dark dank lower regions that are just begging to be taken over by Tyranids.

I wouldn't put it past the Empire to simply flood affected areas with napalm, or poison gas--is it within the capabilities of SW to concot an anti-Tyranid gas/virus?

[Serafina]

If the Tyranids made it onto Coruscant... well the Empire might be able to CONTAIN them but they sure as hell would never be able to completely eliminate them. Coruscant is the equivalent of a massive hive world, complete with dark dank lower regions that are just begging to be taken over by Tyranids.

I wouldn't put it past the Empire to simply flood affected areas with napalm, or poison gas--is it within the capabilities of SW to concot an anti-Tyranid gas/virus?

Of course you can kill them with gas.
Thing is, you won't be able to get a specific "anti-Tyranid gas" that works for a long time. Tyranids are just too adaptablel. You can kill one generation, but the other will be immune. Generally, they are very resilient and you would need a very potent gas.
So, if you want to be sure to get them, you will have to use gas that will also kill your own populace.

[Srelex]

Of course you can kill them with gas.
Thing is, you won't be able to get a specific "anti-Tyranid gas" that works for a long time. Tyranids are just too adaptablel. You can kill one generation, but the other will be immune. Generally, they are very resilient and you would need a very potent gas.
So, if you want to be sure to get them, you will have to use gas that will also kill your own populace.

I know. I'm just trying to see if anyone can quantify SW's bioweapon capabilities. We got the funky Blue Shadow virus in the CG CW series, and a nano-virus in one of the comics. What else is there?

[LionElJonson]

I think I remember reading on Wookiepedia about a Sith techno-virus that turns people into robo-zombies. Not a fucking clue what that'd do to Tyranids, though.

[Serafina]

I know. I'm just trying to see if anyone can quantify SW's bioweapon capabilities. We got the funky Blue Shadow virus in the CG CW series, and a nano-virus in one of the comics. What else is there?

The GE has those too, you know?
Indeed, Virus bombs are pretty damn similar to the "Blue Shadow" virus in that they can infect every lifeform. But they generally act faster and can be set on a timer that makes them inert after a certain time.
And Tyranids have been known to survive on a planet exposed to Virus Bombs.

I do not see any reason why a Nano-virus should be fundamentally different, Nanites are so small that they are susceptible to the immune system.


Generally, i do not see a safe "one weapon to kill them all". You can kill them, sure - but they are generally to smart and adaptable to fall to a single virus or the like.

[Srelex]

Aren't we entering no-limits fallacy territory here? In regards to nanites, surely they can be programmed to adapt in turn to an immune system? Although then again, I'm not sure just what the limits of nanotech in SW are.

[Serafina]

Aren't we entering no-limits fallacy territory here? In regards to nanites, surely they can be programmed to adapt in turn to an immune system? Although then again, I'm not sure just what the limits of nanotech in SW are.

Not anymore than claiming that a single virus can automatically kill all Tyranids.
All i'm saying that SW-bioweapons are most likely not that much more advanced than IoM-bioweapons, and we know that the Tyranids can not be killed wholesale by those.

[Sarevok]

SW takes this easily. Take a few groups of torpedo spheres and hyper them in middle of tyranid fleet. Then fire them all simeltaneously. The tyranids wont survive hundreds of thousands of teraton torps going off like a massive mine field in space.

If something survives then send squadrons of hyper drive equipped bombers to mop up. Microjump near each surviving tyranid group, pop off a few gigaton yield proton torps and hyper away before tyranids know what hit them.

If there are lots of enemies around park a few lancer anti starfighter warships in orbit. They have lots of rapid fire guns firing multi megaton blasts and superb accuracy to nail SW technology fighters. Any swarms of enemies trying to brute force through with numbers is fucked. Fucked as in slow moving zombies stumbling towards machineguns.

[Serafina]

Oh, there is no question that SW would take this in space. And therefore in a real war.
I'm just arguing against the bioweapon-wank here.

[Stravo]

I just want to remind the SW wins folks when they bring up hypering in all these fleet assets that the hypothetical limits Coruscant's defenses ato what is usually in system at the time of the attack. The shadow in the warp ability isolates the system under attack. Of course if the SW verse can bring in every fleet asset the Tyranids get pwned.