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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-05-20 09:41pm
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Jeremy wrote:
Did they have any models for this thing?

Here's their miniatures page.

They seem to have some miniatures of a few select PFs, but I don't see one of a tender.



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-05-25 11:49am
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Probably because the PF Tenders other then the SCS or BCS were usually just frigates, destroyers or war destroyers with most of their weapons removed to add the Mech Links Tractors to them. So the player just has to buy the right model to paint into his PF Tender.

Also most of the Lyran heavy ships, like the Hydrans with fighters, all had built in Mech links for attaching PF's to.



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That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-21 06:15pm
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Jeremy wrote:
Super anti-Borg ship with spiffy mini defiant fighters?

I wanted to see a Defiant hauler at some point... well I guess I just wanted to see some major multiple Defiant action on a Cube.

Yeah that would be nice, all those Pulsed Phasers rending holes in Borg shields while a big cruiser hangs out back and snipes with its superphaser. Well, I better stop before I start drooling.

Sounds like a great idea, save 1 tiny problem. How big would the ship have to be to dock multiple vessels? Big enough that multiple 170 meter long vessels on it, which means the Borg cube would probably try taking out the mothership, leaving the Defiants without support as teh carrier wuold eitehr be destroyed or badly damaged.



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-21 06:21pm
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The real solution is to just watch Babylon 5 instead, since they use multiple corvette action on large capital ships as a matter of course. :D



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-29 08:24am
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Gramzamber wrote:
To be fair, we subsequently see mass-produced Defiants (two in that very episode) and the Prometheus never appears again.
It wouldn't be the first time the military has engaged in a costly experiment that yields no real benefit after all.


Prometheus class actually appears again, on last episode of Voyager... as scenery piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-29 07:04pm
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Night_stalker wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Super anti-Borg ship with spiffy mini defiant fighters?

I wanted to see a Defiant hauler at some point... well I guess I just wanted to see some major multiple Defiant action on a Cube.

Yeah that would be nice, all those Pulsed Phasers rending holes in Borg shields while a big cruiser hangs out back and snipes with its superphaser. Well, I better stop before I start drooling.

Sounds like a great idea, save 1 tiny problem. How big would the ship have to be to dock multiple vessels? Big enough that multiple 170 meter long vessels on it, which means the Borg cube would probably try taking out the mothership, leaving the Defiants without support as teh carrier wuold eitehr be destroyed or badly damaged.


If it's just a Defiant carrier, it doesn't even have to exit out of Warp in-system. Have it stop outside the target area, launch Defiants, and let them continue onward under their own power. It stays safely outside the battlefield, with the potential to act as a command/surveillance vessel.

It probably wouldn't be very cost-effective if you wanted it to engage in battle as well, considering it has to have all the functions of a regular starship writ large plus the ability to carry Defiants.



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-29 09:09pm
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Why couldn't they just make for the Defiant class ships a set of high speed Warp Nacelles and drive system that it can dock with to give it a speed boost for long distances that it can ditch when it gets in combat range?

You know like the Jedi Starfighters use?



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-29 09:22pm
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What if a hostile simply cloaks and manages to lead he Defiants away from their nacelles, then targets the nacelles? Once they're gone, the Defiants are trapped like fish in a barrel



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-29 10:10pm
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Night_stalker wrote:
What if a hostile simply cloaks and manages to lead he Defiants away from their nacelles, then targets the nacelles? Once they're gone, the Defiants are trapped like fish in a barrel


Don't they already have warp drives just not really fast ones? Then all they've done is destroy quick escapes.

Taking out the sled would only limit how fast the Defiants can withdraw. More to the point your only pointing the same problem that the carrier would have too. Only the warp sleds would be much harder to find.



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That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-30 03:14pm
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Isolder74 wrote:
Don't they already have warp drives just not really fast ones? Then all they've done is destroy quick escapes.

Actually, the Defiants have very fast warp drives, only relatively short-ranged.

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-30 06:18pm
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Well, according to Memory Alpha the Defiant class has a top speed of Warp 9.5+. I thought the original had a top speed of Warp 8, but couldn't find anything to back that up.



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Mr. Harley: Your impatience is quite understandable.
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
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"I do know that for the sympathy of one living being, I would make peace with all. I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe.
If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other." – Frankenstein's Creature on the glacier

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-06-30 11:04pm
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Isolder74 wrote:
Why couldn't they just make for the Defiant class ships a set of high speed Warp Nacelles and drive system that it can dock with to give it a speed boost for long distances that it can ditch when it gets in combat range?

You know like the Jedi Starfighters use?

You could definitely do that, but there are advantages for having it be more than just a Warp sled.
Night_stalker wrote:
What if a hostile simply cloaks and manages to lead he Defiants away from their nacelles, then targets the nacelles? Once they're gone, the Defiants are trapped like fish in a barrel

Again others have already addressed this, but presumably if they're manned they can make an escape on their own, or if they're automated have them programed to flee if threatened.



'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-01 07:55am
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Gramzamber wrote:
I suspect it might have to do with encounters against Jem'Hadar attack ships, where some light bulb after reviewing the Odyssey's loss for instance reasoned that small, high powered attack ships would do better against larger ships.
While anybody with any sense would then say "okay, build more Defiants" perhaps someone thought that a larger ship splitting up into smaller ones would gain an element of surprise.

To be fair, we subsequently see mass-produced Defiants (two in that very episode) and the Prometheus never appears again.
It wouldn't be the first time the military has engaged in a costly experiment that yields no real benefit after all.


Message in Bottle actually happened during Dominion War; Prometheus was still prototype and it was impossible to get them on front before war ended, even if serial construction started right after Prometheus was returned to Starfleet. We do see Prometheus class ships on two more occasions - one was part of fleet sent to intercept Borg sphere (Endgame) and another was part of fleet sent to intercept Scimitar (Star Trek : Nemesis). So ship obviously did make it in serial construction.

About MVAM:
1) You have one ship which can split in several smaller ships. So that one ship can perform missions intended for both larger and smaller vessels, and when it goes on longer solitary missions it can do things that would normally require multiple smaller vessels.
2) Shields seem to have more troble stopping, say, two 250 MW beams than single 500 MW beam. Along with more weapons that it could be able to bring on bear, it could also play part.
3) Sections are clearly coordinated by central computer, that increases effectivness of such attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-01 09:58am
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Well we don't know if they made many more of these so they might be an experimental type vessel to test designs sort of like how we build proof of concept vehicles. Also a good reason would be the ability to try out different configurations and weapon systems on the same vessel. Or mount a variety of weapons so that when in vector mode several differernt types of weapons can be brought to bear at the same time.



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-01 03:04pm
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No, it seemed only to have standard phasers and photon torpedoes in all three sections.

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-01 03:25pm
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Picard wrote:
No, it seemed only to have standard phasers and photon torpedoes in all three sections.


Yeah but it's possible to replace them out at a later date, but then federation design philosphy sucks for the most part.



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-01 03:37pm
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Torpedoes can be replaced with quantum torpedoes, and while it had 'standard' phasers (under that I meant beam phasers, not pulse ones like main cannons on Defiant) these were more advanced than any in Starfleet except those on Sovereign class. And it did enable Prometheus to bring more weapons to bear - at least two phaser arrays and two torpedo launchers more. Plus, as I think I already said, three phaser beams are more effective than single beam of equal power.

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-01 03:48pm
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I was thinking more along the lines of having phasers on one part, disruptors on an another and maybe breen type energy dampners or such, then photon, quantum and plasma torpeodos. So now when 1 prometheus against a borg cube you have 6 different weapon systems attacking at the same making it hard to adapt.



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-02 04:25am
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In First Contact it seemed that Borg are having hard time adapting even to standard Federation weapons with rotating frequency, so that is not necessary. Also, if one sectionuses one frequency, second section another and third section yet another frequency, Borg have three different frequencies to adapt. Impossible. Plus frequencies are constantly rotating.

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-02 08:56am
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Yeah that would work. Hell in that case since the larger ships have mutiple phaser banks in a firing arc set each one to a different frequency.



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-02 05:27pm
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dragon wrote:
Yeah that would work. Hell in that case since the larger ships have mutiple phaser banks in a firing arc set each one to a different frequency.

Not possible, unless they lower their shields (they can't open holes in their own shields to shoot, that's the reason for shield frequencies). On the other hand, many ships can and should have different frequencies of shields and phasers. I think that was the problem for the Borg in First Contact: dozens of ships firing phasers at different frequencies, they couldn't nullify all of them, and if Starfleet coordinated enough they could actually use it against them (a ship fires, the Borg use frequency nullification for defense, and at that point other ships fire in the frequency that completely bypass the shields set to neutralize the first ship).

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-02 05:57pm
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Is the 'phaser frequencies are so they can fire through their own shields' thing actually canon? I don't recall any mention of that on the actual show. Photorps MAY have the same frequency shenanigans going for them thanks to WHATEVER the torpedo glow is, but vehicles don't, yet Worf and Data's shuttle departed the E-D without anybody mentioning them dropping shields in BoBW.
And even if it is true, it should STILL work for a single ship-fire your phasers at frequency A, the Borg adapt, fire at frequency B, the Borg adapt, fire at frequency C and so on. We know that doesn't work,even on the individual drone level and the fleet in First Contact DIDN'T coordinate their fire so several would hit the cube simultaneously (not even after Picard took over).



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-02 06:05pm
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Also with rotating frequencies on the hand phasers. Once you'd fired a frequency once, they became to immune to it, you couldn't rotate back to that frequency. You fire on A it adapts to A, then fire on B and it adapts to B but A will still be useless. So this multiple frequences at once still might not work.

The carrying many different kinds of weapons at once thing was done in the Shatner verse. Picards goes on an anti-borg commando mission carrying a starfleet phaser, a klingon disruptor a vulcan 'phase wand' and iirc some kind of slugthrower that also gets adapted to (Shanter and the Reeves-Stevens obviously haven't read the main site ;))



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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-02 11:24pm
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It appears to be used mainly in combat, hence mutlivector assault mode. The most logical reason would be against less maneuverable targets - it would lead to having smaller targets that would presumably be harder to hit (especially the rear engine sections). This would be particularly useful against enemies with a limited arc of fire.

Ideally, the less maneuverable sections the front "saucer" section (although it is a triangular shape) would be in the least vulnerable position. The 2 battle sections would take the main fire. I suspect that if either were destroyed, it would also lessen casualties because most crew are on the saucer section.

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 Post subject: Re: Prometheus-class multi-vector assault mode: why? PostPosted: 2010-07-08 11:02am
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Batman wrote:
Is the 'phaser frequencies are so they can fire through their own shields' thing actually canon? I don't recall any mention of that on the actual show. Photorps MAY have the same frequency shenanigans going for them thanks to WHATEVER the torpedo glow is, but vehicles don't, yet Worf and Data's shuttle departed the E-D without anybody mentioning them dropping shields in BoBW.
And even if it is true, it should STILL work for a single ship-fire your phasers at frequency A, the Borg adapt, fire at frequency B, the Borg adapt, fire at frequency C and so on. We know that doesn't work,even on the individual drone level and the fleet in First Contact DIDN'T coordinate their fire so several would hit the cube simultaneously (not even after Picard took over).


A bit off topic but can we assume that the shuttle's shields were adjusted to match the E-D's shield frequency allowing them to go through?



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