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 Post subject: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-17 08:46pm
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We all can have our own perfect SW/ST crossovers in our heads, be they involving a single ISD plowing over the UFP and Borg inbetween lunch and dinner or the Enterprise blowing up the Death Star by machine-gun firing Genesis Devices at it, but let's say for the sake of arguement that Lucasfilm and Paramount decide to do an official crossover, in novel or comic form, or otherwise. How do you personally imagine it would look like? If you want specifics like authors, you can choose who you would feel would most likely be assigned to this. So, how do you envision such an occurence?



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-17 08:55pm
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Probably the Empire will be crushing the Federation until the crew of the Enterprise undergoes a dangerous mission to press the magic reset button, aided by the Heroes of Yavin, after which no one will remember any of it, thereby managing to piss off the lowest number of fans, most of whom will be hardcore Trekkies that will bitch about how the whole thing isn't canon.

However I will admit that the first thing that came to mind was Starcrossed.



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-17 09:57pm
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I can't really imagine them doing much on the actual war, simply because there wouldn't be much of one. ISD + Federation = ISD + BDZed planets. A series on the Alpha Quadrant under the iron heel of the Empire could work though, because it can have lots of interesting character-driven plots (rather than, you know, scenes of solo ISDs laying waste to entire Starfleet formations or what-have-you). The big target for the AQ powers could then be finding a way to sever the connection between the two galaxies, aiding the Rebel Alliance, discovering their own Force users (Starfleet Jedi anyone :P ?), and so on.



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-17 10:06pm
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That's what I think an official cross-over should be. An actual war is either a lost cause or needs to power up the federation alot, but having the action be limited to "character level" solves most of those problems as an unarmored (and maybe even armored) SW characters is gonna die from a phaser blast just as easily as an ST character, it also gives a image of an actual story rather then "my dick is bigger then yours" kind of argument in "story form".

Not to mention it can also allow the budget to be kept low as you won't need tons of CGI to make it work and if you built the script right you might also be able to do it with only few sets (again bringing the costs down).



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-17 11:26pm
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Or, if they did an official crossover, they would rewrite canon and find some way to narrow the technology gap for dramatic effect, thus pissing off one or both sides of the debate.

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 12:16am
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A movie wherein a decent writer just resort to character dramas as the technology is still, just background material.



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 01:38am
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A 4 part miniseries done in Beowulf style CGI, Adaptation of Mike Wong's Conquest would be best Imo.

1. It completely goes against the Cliche Crossover formula of good guys from both sides teaming up against bad guys who have also teamed up.

2. It settles certain questions about the two franchises that were left unanswered (what is this human potential Q keeps talking about, and where the hell did Humans in Star Wars come from anyway?)

3. It doesn't rewrite Canon to fit a scenario, the ending is as believable as it is satisfying to fans of both franchises.


Only changes I would expect to see are.

a) Transporters don't kill/clone or whatnot in this version or at least the soul of the transported person continues on with their bodies, Ruuk refuses to transport for the same reason you don't want to clone a Jedi, even if it keeps the soul it will still drive them insane. - I know this one makes little sense scientifically but then again this IS Star Trek we are talking about, and I doubt it would go over well with the audience that Trek uses such a horrifying technology.

b) The Crimson blade shown as an Assertor Class rather than an Executor Class. - Assertor just Looks cooler, and has 3x the firepower etc.

c) The Empire/Federation war becomes even More one sided (I think Conquest was written before the ICS and other higher end stats became known, as well as realizing that ramming at warp/hyperspace is just a bad idea)

d) The Borg are brought in for different reasons, since we now know they would be extremely hard pressed to assimilate or adapt to Imperial tech, so Picard on the Eclipse is still done, but for reasons of turning him to the dark side with little other ulterior motive.

Other than that the story would be the exact same.

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 05:54am
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An "official" crossover would binvolve the writers all of your precious firepower calcs and official figures and having the enterprise capable of holding off sustained turbolaser fire from an ISD so they can have shit like daring escapes and interesting battles. Physics wanes before popularity power, and ST is popular enough that if they had an official crossover with a curb-stomp fans would throw a fucking fit and storm the house of whoever penned the thing.

Of course, just as infuriating is if they do this, and then Trekies forever more use it as "proof" that Trekverse can hold its own against SGverse.



A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 06:39am
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adam_grif wrote:
Of course, just as infuriating is if they do this, and then Trekies forever more use it as "proof" that Trekverse can hold its own against SGverse.

Let even the most atheist of us pray that this does newer ocur... :shock:



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 04:13pm
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Azron_Stoma wrote:
A 4 part miniseries done in Beowulf style CGI, Adaptation of Mike Wong's Conquest would be best Imo.


Not the best choice.

Quote:
1. It completely goes against the Cliche Crossover formula of good guys from both sides teaming up against bad guys who have also teamed up.


Personally I like that cliche, and most viewers probably like it too.

Quote:
2. It settles certain questions about the two franchises that were left unanswered (what is this human potential Q keeps talking about, and where the hell did Humans in Star Wars come from anyway?)


So does Starcrossed, if we're using SDN fanfics. Of course, I have a lot of criticisms of Starcrossed too, but the way the author handled the implications of time travel in Star Trek in particular I found to be very interesting. It also covers the origins of the Borg.

Quote:
3. It doesn't rewrite Canon to fit a scenario, the ending is as believable as it is satisfying to fans of both franchises.


I beg to differ. It essentially ends with the implication of the Federation becoming good little racist, militaristic Imperials with an anti-alien human supremacist message. Yeah, the more idealistic of Trek fans in particular will have a field day with that. Its a blatant slap in the face to numerous ideals and themes Trek has been based on since the start. And any scenario in which hundreds or thousands of Trek capital ships are easily destroyed with no significant or meaningful Trek victories is going to rub a lot of Trek fans (and casual viewers who don't know about the vs. debate) the wrong way. To contrast again, at least Starcrossed allows the Trek factions to get a few hits in, and does so for the most part in a comparatively believable way.

Quote:
Only changes I would expect to see are.

a) Transporters don't kill/clone or whatnot in this version or at least the soul of the transported person continues on with their bodies, Ruuk refuses to transport for the same reason you don't want to clone a Jedi, even if it keeps the soul it will still drive them insane. - I know this one makes little sense scientifically but then again this IS Star Trek we are talking about, and I doubt it would go over well with the audience that Trek uses such a horrifying technology.


Good idea.

Quote:
b) The Crimson blade shown as an Assertor Class rather than an Executor Class. - Assertor just Looks cooler, and has 3x the firepower etc.


What exactly is the Assertor Class? I know about the Eclipse and Sovereign classes of SSD, but this one is new to me.

Quote:
c) The Empire/Federation war becomes even More one sided (I think Conquest was written before the ICS and other higher end stats became known, as well as realizing that ramming at warp/hyperspace is just a bad idea)


The problem is, even if this is more plausible, how's it going to look to the average viewer who has not participated in the debate?

Quote:
d) The Borg are brought in for different reasons, since we now know they would be extremely hard pressed to assimilate or adapt to Imperial tech, so Picard on the Eclipse is still done, but for reasons of turning him to the dark side with little other ulterior motive.

Other than that the story would be the exact same.


How do you bring the Borg in, then? And anyway, just because the Borg can't assimilate the tech. doesn't mean they won't try. Not the brightest lot are they?

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 05:57pm
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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Not the best choice.


I Said IMO for a reason.

Quote:
Personally I like that cliche, and most viewers probably like it too.


Still, it keeps things fresh, and the story rather unpredictable.

Quote:
So does Starcrossed, if we're using SDN fanfics. Of course, I have a lot of criticisms of Starcrossed too, but the way the author handled the implications of time travel in Star Trek in particular I found to be very interesting. It also covers the origins of the Borg.


meh, to me the Borg are like the Joker, better to not give them an origin at all.

Quote:
I beg to differ. It essentially ends with the implication of the Federation becoming good little racist, militaristic Imperials with an anti-alien human supremacist message. Yeah, the more idealistic of Trek fans in particular will have a field day with that. Its a blatant slap in the face to numerous ideals and themes Trek has been based on since the start. And any scenario in which hundreds or thousands of Trek capital ships are easily destroyed with no significant or meaningful Trek victories is going to rub a lot of Trek fans (and casual viewers who don't know about the vs. debate) the wrong way. To contrast again, at least Starcrossed allows the Trek factions to get a few hits in, and does so for the most part in a comparatively believable way.


I was under the Impression that Kanos was going to give the Federation more autonomy at the end.

Quote:
Good idea


Glad you agree.

Quote:
What exactly is the Assertor Class? I know about the Eclipse and Sovereign classes of SSD, but this one is new to me.


FractalSponge's biggest, baddest monster of a ship http://fractalsponge.net/bigger/150.jpg http://fractalsponge.net/bigger/146.jpg http://fractalsponge.net/bigger/147.jpg

And a scale chart, the Assertor is at the bottom, the second from the bottom is the Bellator Battlecruiser, which I would like to see in there too. http://fractalsponge.net/bigger/z_mod.jpg

Quote:
The problem is, even if this is more plausible, how's it going to look to the average viewer who has not participated in the debate?


By depicting it as a sort of "War of the Worlds" or "Independence Day" type of hopeless battle, maybe have a sort of primer at the beginning giving basic ship stats and how powerful the Star Wars ships really are, such as during Chang's time on the Rebel Mon Cal. I'd expect the average viewer would just go "Holy shit! I never knew Star Wars ships were so powerful!" which is generally the reaction most reasonable people have to the ICS based stats when they first read them (at least that was my reaction).

Quote:
How do you bring the Borg in, then? And anyway, just because the Borg can't assimilate the tech. doesn't mean they won't try. Not the brightest lot are they?


They would try, but as I recall they also gave Picard the Eclipse to give him the means in which to take out all his anger and hatred of the borg on them, with Jaina there to bring out his other repressed emotions, in the hopes of turning him to their side.

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 06:04pm
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Azron_Stoma wrote:
By depicting it as a sort of "War of the Worlds" or "Independence Day" type of hopeless battle, maybe have a sort of primer at the beginning giving basic ship stats and how powerful the Star Wars ships really are, such as during Chang's time on the Rebel Mon Cal. I'd expect the average viewer would just go "Holy shit! I never knew Star Wars ships were so powerful!" which is generally the reaction most reasonable people have to the ICS based stats when they first read them (at least that was my reaction).


To be honest, a lot of reactions I've seen to the stats generally amount to 'what a load of wank! Can't be true!' Let's be honest, as someone hinted, the Trekkie side of the viewer demographic would just take it as massive bias towards Wars, as would the casual viewer to be frank. Scenes of ISDs plowing through UFP formations may appeal to some SD.neters, but would have the opposite effect on most others.



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 06:17pm
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adam_grif wrote:
An "official" crossover would binvolve the writers all of your precious firepower calcs and official figures and having the enterprise capable of holding off sustained turbolaser fire from an ISD so they can have shit like daring escapes and interesting battles. Physics wanes before popularity power, and ST is popular enough that if they had an official crossover with a curb-stomp fans would throw a fucking fit and storm the house of whoever penned the thing.

Of course, just as infuriating is if they do this, and then Trekies forever more use it as "proof" that Trekverse can hold its own against SGverse.



Oh god what the hell happened to my post?

Super-ghetto edit:

An "official" crossover would involve the writers ignoring all your precious firepower calcs and official figures and having the enterprise capable of holding off sustained turbolaser fire from an ISD so they can have things like daring escapes and interesting battles.



A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-18 06:47pm
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Srelex wrote:
To be honest, a lot of reactions I've seen to the stats generally amount to 'what a load of wank! Can't be true!' Let's be honest, as someone hinted, the Trekkie side of the viewer demographic would just take it as massive bias towards Wars, as would the casual viewer to be frank. Scenes of ISDs plowing through UFP formations may appeal to some SD.neters, but would have the opposite effect on most others.


The reactions I get are almost universally things like "well they are on completely different scales" and such like that, accepting them without a second thought, though they usually are genuinely surprised by the firepower, it only takes them a second or two to realize "yeah that sounds about right" what with regards to the Age of the Republic/Empire and the galactic scale of star wars.

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-19 09:55am
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Azron_Stoma wrote:
Quote:
What exactly is the Assertor Class? I know about the Eclipse and Sovereign classes of SSD, but this one is new to me.


FractalSponge's biggest, baddest monster of a ship http://fractalsponge.net/bigger/150.jpg http://fractalsponge.net/bigger/146.jpg http://fractalsponge.net/bigger/147.jpg

And a scale chart, the Assertor is at the bottom, the second from the bottom is the Bellator Battlecruiser, which I would like to see in there too. http://fractalsponge.net/bigger/z_mod.jpg

Is that your creation? It's pretty sweet!

I think I like it better than the cannon designs; especially the layout of the weapons emplacements.



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-19 10:03am
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Azron_Stoma wrote:
Srelex wrote:
To be honest, a lot of reactions I've seen to the stats generally amount to 'what a load of wank! Can't be true!' Let's be honest, as someone hinted, the Trekkie side of the viewer demographic would just take it as massive bias towards Wars, as would the casual viewer to be frank. Scenes of ISDs plowing through UFP formations may appeal to some SD.neters, but would have the opposite effect on most others.


The reactions I get are almost universally things like "well they are on completely different scales" and such like that, accepting them without a second thought, though they usually are genuinely surprised by the firepower, it only takes them a second or two to realize "yeah that sounds about right" what with regards to the Age of the Republic/Empire and the galactic scale of star wars.

I've generally avoided discussing topics like this with commoners. Based on what I know from more tamer discussions I would expect one of the following:
    1. Giggling
    2. Nerd/Geek comments
    3. The :roll:
    4. It's just a movie/TV show
    5. Or at best, a superficially honest, but intellectually poor argument favoring the side they like. Logic and reason would not apply.



Image
Mr. Harley: Your impatience is quite understandable.
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry... I wish it were otherwise.

"I do know that for the sympathy of one living being, I would make peace with all. I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe.
If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other." – Frankenstein's Creature on the glacier

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-19 10:10am
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As per the OP, an all out war wouldn't work.

It would probably work best with the Star Trek elements being caught simply trying to survive becoming collateral damage as conflict from the Star Wars galaxy spills over. I envision something similar to how the minor races in B5 got caught between the Vorlons and the Shadows.



Image
Mr. Harley: Your impatience is quite understandable.
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry... I wish it were otherwise.

"I do know that for the sympathy of one living being, I would make peace with all. I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe.
If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other." – Frankenstein's Creature on the glacier

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-19 03:13pm
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Temujin wrote:
As per the OP, an all out war wouldn't work.

It would probably work best with the Star Trek elements being caught simply trying to survive becoming collateral damage as conflict from the Star Wars galaxy spills over. I envision something similar to how the minor races in B5 got caught between the Vorlons and the Shadows.


Now I have an image of Ben Sisko on a crippled Defiant telling Darth Vader to get the hell out of our galaxy.
And Darth Vader agreeing.



"No it's just Anacrap coming to whine and do nothing." -Mike Nelson on Anakin Skywalker

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-19 05:46pm
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I find your lack of faith disturbing!
Gramzamber wrote:
Temujin wrote:
As per the OP, an all out war wouldn't work.

It would probably work best with the Star Trek elements being caught simply trying to survive becoming collateral damage as conflict from the Star Wars galaxy spills over. I envision something similar to how the minor races in B5 got caught between the Vorlons and the Shadows.


Now I have an image of Ben Sisko on a crippled Defiant telling Darth Vader to get the hell out of our galaxy.
And Darth Vader agreeing Force choking the ever loving shit out of him.

Fixed that for you! :mrgreen:



Image
Mr. Harley: Your impatience is quite understandable.
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry... I wish it were otherwise.

"I do know that for the sympathy of one living being, I would make peace with all. I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe.
If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other." – Frankenstein's Creature on the glacier

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-19 06:43pm
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Temujin wrote:
I find your lack of faith disturbing!
Gramzamber wrote:
Temujin wrote:
As per the OP, an all out war wouldn't work.

It would probably work best with the Star Trek elements being caught simply trying to survive becoming collateral damage as conflict from the Star Wars galaxy spills over. I envision something similar to how the minor races in B5 got caught between the Vorlons and the Shadows.


Now I have an image of Ben Sisko on a crippled Defiant telling Darth Vader to get the hell out of our galaxy.
And Darth Vader agreeing Force choking the ever loving shit out of him.

Fixed that for you! :mrgreen:


You can't force choke The Sisko, he'll bitch slap you with his pimp hand!

Yeah I watch too many sfdebris reviews.



"No it's just Anacrap coming to whine and do nothing." -Mike Nelson on Anakin Skywalker

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-19 07:26pm
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Gramzamber wrote:
You can't force choke The Sisko, he'll bitch slap you with his pimp hand!

Yeah your right. After all, he is the only man whose balls can be seen by Google Satellite! :lol:

Gramzamber wrote:
Yeah I watch too many sfdebris reviews.

As do I.



Image
Mr. Harley: Your impatience is quite understandable.
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry... I wish it were otherwise.

"I do know that for the sympathy of one living being, I would make peace with all. I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe.
If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other." – Frankenstein's Creature on the glacier

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-20 04:35am
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Temujin wrote:
I've generally avoided discussing topics like this with commoners. Based on what I know from more tamer discussions I would expect one of the following:
    1. Giggling
    2. Nerd/Geek comments
    3. The :roll:
    4. It's just a movie/TV show
    5. Or at best, a superficially honest, but intellectually poor argument favoring the side they like. Logic and reason would not apply.


I mostly talk to people who are fans of both franchises, and are rather reasonable people, like people in my family or the Anime Club at my college. many of whom I've known since High School.

I've never once met a Trektard in real life though, closest one accepted the figures rather well, but didn't like the idea of the Federation getting wasted, even though they accepted it would be true.

Quote:
Gramzamber wrote:
Yeah I watch too many sfdebris reviews.

As do I.


Don't we all?

Quote:
Is that your creation? It's pretty sweet!

I think I like it better than the cannon designs; especially the layout of the weapons emplacements.


I wish, and yes FractalSponge always puts a great deal of thought into weapon layout, to allow the greatest efficiency in fire arcs.

you can find more pics as well as the entire construction of that and other designs on his thread here

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=124353

Starting with the Bellator, another original design by him. He also has several other original designs shown in the thread, as well as CG versions of a few existing ones. The name Asstertor was settled on AFTER he had finished making the CG model for it. There were quite a few other names floating around that were considered.

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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-20 07:25pm
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Azron_Stoma wrote:
I mostly talk to people who are fans of both franchises, and are rather reasonable people, like people in my family or the Anime Club at my college. many of whom I've known since High School.

I've never once met a Trektard in real life though, closest one accepted the figures rather well, but didn't like the idea of the Federation getting wasted, even though they accepted it would be true.

Unfortunately, the few people I've met who were openly SciFi fans were either the stereotypical obnoxious nerd variety, or Trektards. I've met others who obviously knew of and even watched scifi shows, but seemed to downplay their interest, probably due to their not wanting to be seen a geek/nerd. Though when it comes to sports and other crap that's more popular (and acceptable to openly like), these same people had no problem acting equally geeky.

Azron_Stoma wrote:
I wish, and yes FractalSponge always puts a great deal of thought into weapon layout, to allow the greatest efficiency in fire arcs.

you can find more pics as well as the entire construction of that and other designs on his thread here

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 6&t=124353

Starting with the Bellator, another original design by him. He also has several other original designs shown in the thread, as well as CG versions of a few existing ones. The name Asstertor was settled on AFTER he had finished making the CG model for it. There were quite a few other names floating around that were considered.

Thanks for the link.



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-05-21 10:47pm
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Yeah an actual crossover right now would involve the Abrams Trek and not TNG so die hard fans on both sides of the aisle get all pissed and huffy about it, meanwhile while the plot is universally condemened by both sides the movie grosses over a billion dollars.



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 Post subject: Re: What would an official SW/ST crossover be like? PostPosted: 2010-06-18 07:31pm
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Darth Fanboy wrote:
Yeah an actual crossover right now would involve the Abrams Trek and not TNG so die hard fans on both sides of the aisle get all pissed and huffy about it, meanwhile while the plot is universally condemened by both sides the movie grosses over a billion dollars.


Either that or the movie gets the billion dollars and praised for it's plot and gets praised for 'saving the franchise of star wars' as some papers would write it out and that would peeve a lot of people.

In terms of an 'offical' crossover, Abrams Trek would be the closest to dealing with a crossover with star wars. Of course not only would a crossover screwup years of fan cacluations but you'll have comments like 'omfg the empire can't beat 23rd century enterprise. What do ya think will happen when they face voyager and all its (insert tech babble here)' because let's face it, there won't be a definate winner but the feds will take a shine if such a crossover did occur.

Could a crossover be set in abrams ST? I see no reason as to why it shouldn't. Though how they do a crossover I don't know without it adopting the great umber of cliched crossovers.

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