Oh, in that case there wasn't even that. I don't really know how can Israel exist.

You can go for something Arabic, but there'd be Siege and I think he owns most of that.

He's discussing things with Siege and Fin via PM.

---

”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

What I'm leaning towards is a history that, for me, deviated in 1895, when Theodore Herzl made his call for Jews to emigrate from Europe to Palestine-- and for some reason, this time, it struck a chord, and there was a much stronger response which I'll blame on the recent tensions in Europe between Germany & Russia, and the German incursions into Austria and North Italy. Between the wars, the tension, and what is likely typical turn of the century anti-Semitism (I'm assuming the Dreyfus Affair or something like it probably still happened, and Karl Leuger is still stirring hate on the streets of Vienna) the call to Palestine was heeded with a lot of enthusiasm.

What I'm looking at now is a shared Byzantine-Egyptian client State, the borders of which may be only partially defined. Still thinking about the details.

Well, you wouldn't get a lot of expats from Germany, as Germany under the Kaiser did treat their jews very well in comparison to other European states (plus I need them for a storyline).

---

Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
"You know, you insist government is depraved for not legislating against what we can see on newsstands, or what we can see in an art exhibit, or what we can burn in protest, or which sex we can have sex with, or a woman's right to choose, but don't you dare try to regulate this deadly weapon I have concealed on me, for that would encroach against my freedom!"
- Sam Seaborn
------------------
Et si omnes ego non

That generally works, though I believe Slacker was also planning on a Jewish-friendly Poland so you might wish to speak with him on things. Not sure if Stas is sticking with the historical pogroms or not.

Might also get any Dutch and Belgian Jews fleeing the Communist revolution there.

One logical source would be the Balkans, which historically never treated Jews well, and maybe Baerne can approve somewhat harsher anti-Semitism in France (as a result of war with the "Jewish" Communists of Holland? - it was common to associate Communism with Jews in those days). Maybe Conservative, Piedmontese Italy was harsh toward their Jews before their collapse in 1916.

---

”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

What is there to prevent them? A lack of Civil War means less pogroms during the Civil War itself. But the black dozen and all that crap still existed.

Ah. Just didn't know what else you might've been changing.

---

”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

That's why, after reading the history, I'm thinking of a fairly indistinct, smaller state. Maybe even one with a lot of transient citizens-- northern European Jews who have family and/or summer homes in Palestine, etc. I was thinking of a Yishuv with strong ties to places like Germany, Poland, and others.

[EDIT]: Strong ties meaning, families with connections in those areas, as opposed to government alliances --just to clarify.

If we have a "WW1" event of some sort, it'd make an interesting base of operations, what with TE Lawrence-like figures and the last cavalry charge, etc.

^That would work.

---

Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
"You know, you insist government is depraved for not legislating against what we can see on newsstands, or what we can see in an art exhibit, or what we can burn in protest, or which sex we can have sex with, or a woman's right to choose, but don't you dare try to regulate this deadly weapon I have concealed on me, for that would encroach against my freedom!"
- Sam Seaborn
------------------
Et si omnes ego non

I had an idea that perhaps Scandinavia and Germany had fought a somewhat Western Front-like conflict on the Jutland peninsula at some point (perhaps around 1900-1905), but given the prevailing goodwill between the two nations because of their strong trade ties that seems to be inappropiate.

Perhaps the Nordic Union fought the Russians over...oh, I don't know...Finland sometime between their founding in the 1850s and today?

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tiny friendly crab.

The globe seems pretty crowded this time around. We'll have no choice but to go PvP.

I'd love to see Israel actually fight itself out of Byzantine and Egyptian control and into independence.

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tiny friendly crab.

Which should be quite fun. Depending on your idea of fun...

I would be cool with modifying my history a bit, to help Coyote get what he wants. Especially since I have basically a rough draft and still need to finalize it.

Here is a rough draft for my little nation:

the Yishuv: Jewish/Arab Palestine

In 1895, Theodore Herzl made his call for Jews to return to their homeland. Motivated by a uptick in anti-Semitism following the Dreyfus Affair, the call to 'aliyah' struck a chord with many Jews in Europe. While many of the European governments were friendly towards their Jewish communities, with policies ranging from 'merely tolerant' to 'encouraging' or even fully integrated, there were still, at times, anti-Semitic movements among groups of citizens.

Many Jews left to avoid increasing tensions, with the fears of a Russo-German war narrowly averted the most recent. Some wanted to relocate to a region that had seen few wars in recent times; however, many others (especially from Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union) wanted to relocate under the banner of socialist pioneers to create a people's haven in the new-formed Kibbutz (collective farm) movement.

In the third Zionist Congress, the Congress was granted authority to oversee an autonomous region in the area of Palestine where Jews throughout the ages had traditionally maintained a prescence. The authorization came from a comment made by the Byzantine Emperor while at a conference in Cairo, discussing the status of Jerusalem. The "Cairo Declaration", as it came to be called, stated that the rulers of the Egypian Sultanate and the Byzantine Empire "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

Jerusalem became a shared city among Byzantine Christians, Egyptian Muslims, and the local Jews of the Yishuv. The Yishuv handles the administrative rulership and common civic needs, including police and defense with Arab Legion volunteers. Religious freedom and access to holy sites are guaranteed by the Mulsim waqf land-holding agreement, and access to the railway in the form of the Hedjaz Railroad is under Byzantine control.

----------------------------


The Yishuv Military Forces:
Army: Headquarters at "ha'Kirya" GHQ, Tel Aviv.
8 Infantry "Brigades" of about 5,000 troops each (50,000 troops total)
1 Pioneer (Engineer) "Brigade" of 4,000 troops.

Infantry is mostly equipped with the Gewehr-88.
Some early models had flaws due to rushed ammunition production; anti-Semitic factions within the German press exploited the flaws citing a conspiracy between the rifle’s manufacturer, the Ludwig Loewe Company, and other Jewish owned manufactures, including the firm manufacturing the smokeless powder. Thus the rifle became known derisively as the Judenflinte ("Jews' Musket"). While this yellow journalist hate speech was investigated and quashed by the German government, some in the Army were all too eager to get rid of the Loewe Co. G-88s.

The Army also has a number of American 1903 Springfields and some British Enfields, but the G88 is the common service rifle.

Pistols:
British Webley revolver and German C96 Mauser are about evenly divided among troops. Some 'elite' Haganah troops like the C96 Schnellfeuer.

Tanks:
1 Armored "Brigade" of 5,000 men (crews and support teams together)
This "Brigade" is mostly spread out, with platoons or companies around the Yishuv accompanying various Infantry Brigades.
The tanks stay close to the coastal cities; the armored cars are divided among Jerusalem, Haifa and the Negev Desert.

8 St. Chamond tanks bought by Poland in 1920 from French scrap dealers. Centered in Tel-Aviv.
8 Fiat 3000s, centered around the Tiveria/Tfat region.
28 FT-17s, centered around the Tel-Aviv/Jerusalem highway and Jaffa.
14 LK-II (Stridsvagn M/21),
30 Rolls-Royce Armored Cars, 1920 Pattern, with .303 Vickers Machineguns
21 Rolls-Royce Armored Cars, 1924 Pattern, with open turret with Boys anti-tank rifles and Lewis Guns

Artillery:
32 French 75s. 6 man crews per gun, + officers & support personnel, munitons handlers, etc make 1 "Brigade" of about 400 men.

Air Force:
6 squadrons of Bristol Type 14 F.2B Mk II.
6 Squadrons of Fokker E.III

Navy:
German light cruiser Nurnberg
German/Turkish Battlecruiser SMS Goeben
"Turkish" torpedo boat/destroyer Muavenet-i Milliye
"Turkish" minelayer Nusret

Note on the Navy: The navy, with two Cruisers, is really too big for the small Yishuv. The Goeben is operated jointly with the Byzantine Navy, which uses the Yishuv ownership of the Goeben as a means to get around an obscure treaty restriction about status of forces in the Mediterannean vis-a-vis the Black Sea, Russia, etc. The Goeben belongs to the Yishuv and is manned partially by Yishuv officers and men, but most of the highly technical and specialized parts of the ship are actually manned by Byzantine "observer/trainers". It will be some years before the Yishuv can actually operate a ship of that size on it's own.

The Nurnburg and the two smaller ships are wholly manned by the Yishuv, albeit inexpertly.

----------------------------

Passenger Air Service: civil aircraft for mail & passengers to Europe, N Africa and near east.
6 Vickers Vimy run by "Air Palestine"
8 Handley-Page type-O bombers, converted to civil aircraft, run by "Israir"




I'll come up with different names for "Turkish" ships and the "Goeben", this is based as much off of historical stuff as I can find. For example, I only looked for ships that served in the Med Sea area and whose fates were accounted for up to the 1920's.

Eh, no. The SMS Goeben and the Nürnberg are still part of my Hochseeflotte. They were never sold to the Byzantines. If you want to, I could have sold you a third ship of that class or any other extra ship of any German Class before 1920. But the Goeben is still a member of my fleet.

The Breslau (not the Nürnberg, no Nürnberg ever served in the area) however could have been sold directly to you during the 1910s or 20s. I also have some Austrian and German pre-dreads left who could have been converted into coastal defence ships and sold to you during that time.



Yeah, that works. Surplus could have been sold to you for a low price.

---

Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
"You know, you insist government is depraved for not legislating against what we can see on newsstands, or what we can see in an art exhibit, or what we can burn in protest, or which sex we can have sex with, or a woman's right to choose, but don't you dare try to regulate this deadly weapon I have concealed on me, for that would encroach against my freedom!"
- Sam Seaborn
------------------
Et si omnes ego non

Hrm, you need to ask Thanas about the Goeben, Arik. I'm pretty sure he still has it in service.

You could always *hint hint* buy Cascadian?

---

”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

Okay, that's why I wanted to get the rough draft up. I'll tinker with it over the weekend. I may buy Cascadian or US.

I just finished reading "Castles of Steel" and was impressed with the role the Goeban played, and knew it had been "transferred" to the Turks.

The Yishuv may buy from another supplier, or, depending on how Thanas and Stas feel (with the permission of the Byzantines) then a ship about the size and class of Goeben might be (cough, ahem, nudge-wink) "sold" the Yishuv with German advisors aboard so as to maintain a prescence on the comings and goings of those sneaky Russians and their Black Sea fleet!

You know... just in case.

One minor detail: I would prefer it be specified that even though the Yishuv has de-facto control over Jerusalem, de-jure it is still part of the Sultanate. It's a point of pride for the Sultanate to have control over the three holiest cities of Islam. You can pretty much rule the place as you want as long as I can have an Emir there who oversees the goings-on.

There's also an important fortress at al-Ghazza (Gaza), but that's at the very edge of what I suppose the territory of the Yishuv would be, so I doubt it'll be an issue.

I guess we'll also have to iron out the exact relationship between the Yishuv government and the Byzantine/Sultanate governments...

---

SDN World 2: The North Frequesuan Trust
SDN World 3: The Sultanate of Egypt
SDN World 4: The United Solarian Sovereignty

There'll be a bodycount, we're gonna watch it rise
The folks at CNN, they won't believe their eyes

Like I said, we could have "sold" you any number of ships. You'll just have to come up new names for them as I'd like to have the historical ships in my service. You might want to take a look at this ship or these two Battlecruisers/fast Battleships. Number 1, Number 2 or oder a redesign that fits your needs. German shipyards are quite export friendly.

PM me if you are interested.

---

Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
"You know, you insist government is depraved for not legislating against what we can see on newsstands, or what we can see in an art exhibit, or what we can burn in protest, or which sex we can have sex with, or a woman's right to choose, but don't you dare try to regulate this deadly weapon I have concealed on me, for that would encroach against my freedom!"
- Sam Seaborn
------------------
Et si omnes ego non

Hahahaha.

'And yes, "Castles of Steel" was awesome, was it not?

---

”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

Hey hey hey, you've got enough customers!

I have 7 open 25-40,000T capacity slips that need filling dammit! Especially since I don't think I'll be able to build my Artemis-class Large Cruisers in 1925 after all....

---

”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

Well, those ships would have been built before gamestart.

Coincidentally, Coyote, you could also take a look at my newest Export ships, available for Export and of course you could also built them at your own shipyards with a license purchased at a moderate cost.

Germany can always use some new customers....

---

Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
"You know, you insist government is depraved for not legislating against what we can see on newsstands, or what we can see in an art exhibit, or what we can burn in protest, or which sex we can have sex with, or a woman's right to choose, but don't you dare try to regulate this deadly weapon I have concealed on me, for that would encroach against my freedom!"
- Sam Seaborn
------------------
Et si omnes ego non

Like it's not enough you stole my Egyptian customers in the 1910s!

....wait, was it Germany or someone else who did that?

---

”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

Probably us, considering they bought the Bayern class.

Good thing Sänger and Garrett were able to renegotiate that basing agreement, right?

---

Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
"You know, you insist government is depraved for not legislating against what we can see on newsstands, or what we can see in an art exhibit, or what we can burn in protest, or which sex we can have sex with, or a woman's right to choose, but don't you dare try to regulate this deadly weapon I have concealed on me, for that would encroach against my freedom!"
- Sam Seaborn
------------------
Et si omnes ego non

That's okay, I got them back. Siege's other class will be modified Vanguards.

Bah! Perfidious Teutons, we should have kept Samoa!

---

”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik