Predator Tank vs Leman Russ Comparison

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have been digging around but I have not seen much of a comparison between the Leman Russ tank and the Predator Tank. As far as I can see, no Leman Russ can be refitted with more than a dual lasguns which was the case for the Leman Russ Annihilator, or plasma guns in the form of the Leman Russ Executioner. The Leman Russ can also be refitted with KE guns which have fair penetration capabilities.

Then on the other hand you have a Predator tank which has two main variants, one optimised for infantry support, the other for anti-armor, with as many as 6 lasguns.

So basically the question is: Are there known comparisons in terms of

1. Armor
2. Maximum limit of weapons the tanks can carry?
3. Speed, mobility etc.?

[Shroom Man 777]

Isn't the Predator based on the same chassis as the Rhino, which is an APC? Would that make its armor softer than the dedicated tank-chassis of the Leman Russ?

How big are Predators and Rhinos, anyway? The Rhino is an APC, but unlike Imperial Guard Chimeras, Space Marine APCs are designed to carry goddamn Space Marines in them by the squadfuls. Would a Rhino APC be just as big as a Leman Russ? Would the excess internal volume of the Rhino APC and the crew space diminish its armor compared to the Leman Russ' dedicated tank-chassis? Would this Rhino-stuff have any bearing for Predators?

Hey, Fingolfin, are you making a 40k fic?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Isn't the Predator based on the same chassis as the Rhino, which is an APC? Would that make its armor softer than the dedicated tank-chassis of the Leman Russ?

How big are Predators and Rhinos, anyway? The Rhino is an APC, but unlike Imperial Guard Chimeras, Space Marine APCs are designed to carry goddamn Space Marines in them by the squadfuls. Would a Rhino APC be just as big as a Leman Russ? Would the excess internal volume of the Rhino APC and the crew space diminish its armor compared to the Leman Russ' dedicated tank-chassis? Would this Rhino-stuff have any bearing for Predators?

Yeah, that's pretty much data I'm looking for. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find much on the Predator.

Hey, Fingolfin, are you making a 40k fic?

Actually, no. More of drafting up an army for an STGOD.

[Lord Revan]

well Predators can have anywhere from 1 (destructor pattern without the side sponsons (they're opional)) to 8 (Annihilator pattern with Side sposons, HK missle and pintle mounted weapon) weapons with better arcs, but I personally think it's unfair to compare them to the Leman Russ too much as the 2 tanks fill different roles, with the Predators being more support of infantry operations, while Leman Russes are closer to being the main weapon to harm the enemy.

[SAMAS]

So far, Leman Russ has gotten

Standard - Battle Cannon
Exterminator - Twin-linked Autocannons
Demolisher - Demolisher cannon. (siege gun)
Vanquisher - Vanquisher cannon (anti-armor)
Conqueror - Conqueror cannon (lighter cannon)
Annihilator - Twin-linked Lascannons
Executioner - Plasma Executioner

And the new codex introduced one that had a smaller gun that fired a sub-atomic charge (used against infantry in cover), and one with a big gatling, because apparently the Exterminator was no longer enough.

All Russ' can have sponsons that mount either Heavy Bolters or Heavy Flamers. IIRC, the new codex also lets all variants use the Multi-Melta and Plasma Cannon sponsons the Demolisher can also use.

There's also the Destroyer Tank Hunter, which has no turret and a big-ass Laser Destroyer built into the front; the Thunderer, which is a Destroyer with the Laser replaced by a Demolisher Cannon; the Atlas recovery vehicle, and the Bombard, which is a humongous artillery piece. All of which are built on the Russ' Hull.

[Ford Prefect]

And the new codex introduced one that had a smaller gun that fired a sub-atomic charge (used against infantry in cover), and one with a big gatling, because apparently the Exterminator was no longer enough.

Are you by any chance getting mixed up with two of the many Baneblade/Shadowsword variants? Because while I haven't heard of a Leman Russ with either dirty bombs or an assault cannon, I have heard of a Baneblade/Swadow sword with a big ass cannon for hurling neutron bombs and one with a Vulcan Megabolter.

[Lazarus]

Are you by any chance getting mixed up with two of the many Baneblade/Shadowsword variants? Because while I haven't heard of a Leman Russ with either dirty bombs or an assault cannon, I have heard of a Baneblade/Swadow sword with a big ass cannon for hurling neutron bombs and one with a Vulcan Megabolter.

The new IG codex includes the variants referred to. Not sure they actually have models yet though.

[SAMAS]

And the new codex introduced one that had a smaller gun that fired a sub-atomic charge (used against infantry in cover), and one with a big gatling, because apparently the Exterminator was no longer enough.

Are you by any chance getting mixed up with two of the many Baneblade/Shadowsword variants? Because while I haven't heard of a Leman Russ with either dirty bombs or an assault cannon, I have heard of a Baneblade/Swadow sword with a big ass cannon for hurling neutron bombs and one with a Vulcan Megabolter.

Like he said, new Codex.

And no, the Gatling Russ does not use an Assault Cannon. From the description, it's more like half a VMB, and is the kind of thing you bring when your opponent says he's taking Tyranids, and you feel like being mean to him.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What's the name of this Leman Russ variant that fires a sub-atomic charge? This is the first time I am hearing of it.

[Azazal]

The 2 new Leman Russ models:

Executioner Looks like some kind of plasma cannon of doom for the main gun

Punisher, doing it's job as a ground based A-10 replacement?

[Shroom Man 777]

That kind of massive minigun-bolter-thing on a Leman Russ is obscene! What kind of caliber does the fluff say it is? How many rounds? How fast? How KILLY does it get?!

[open_sketchbook]

No idea regarding the fluff, but it's S5 AP- Heavy20

Twenty goddamn shots per turn. Add triple Heavy Bolters and a Heavy Stubber and your up to 32 shots per turn. It's the best horde-killer I've ever fielded.

[Azazal]

No idea regarding the fluff, but it's S5 AP- Heavy20

Twenty goddamn shots per turn. Add triple Heavy Bolters and a Heavy Stubber and your up to 32 shots per turn. It's the best horde-killer I've ever fielded.

heavy 20!!!! Sweet jesus, is that in the new Guard dex? I haven't had a chance to look at it, so I have no idea.

[andrewgpaul]

Yup. In the new Guard book. Forgeworld also make add-on packs for the Valkyrie aircraft to allow it to mount 2 under the wings. No stats yet, but I'm sure it'll be in Imperial Armour volume 7.

[Hawkwings]

No idea regarding the fluff, but it's S5 AP- Heavy20

Forgeworld also make add-on packs for the Valkyrie aircraft to allow it to mount 2 under the wings.

This is the kind of unit you get a bucket of dice for, then roll them all at the same time.

Then you get another 2 buckets for the other Valkyries kitted out the same way.

[Serafina]

Meh, the Punisher is not that bad. It has only 24'' of range and has not armor penetration at all. Meaning it sucks at killing vehicles, and is only good at killing cheap infantry with 6+ or 5+ armor. For everything else, other variants are better.
On average, it will kill 5 Orks, 6 Guardsmen or seven Gaunts.

On topic:

1: Both are tanks. If you want a comparsion, the Leman Russ is a german Panther or russian IS 2, while the Predator is a M4 Sherman. Of course, the armor of both is propably on par or better than modern tanks.
The side armor of a Leman Russ is as strong as the Front armor of a Predator, while the rear armor is equal.

2: Both carry a single main weapons, up to two secondary and can add a couple of tertiary weapons.
It is important to note that the main armament of a Leman Russ is way stronger than that of a Predator.
Their side sponsons weapons are about equal - lascannons are about as powerfull as plasma cannons. A Predator may take lascannons, a Leman Russ plasma cannons, but they have about equal power. But a Leman Russ has more choice for its weaponery.
As for tertiary weapons, they are equally matched. Light anti-infantery armament and single-launch missiles.

3: Speed: Both have extremely good mobility - the Leman Russ is said to be able to make 90° or even 180° degree turns almsot instantly. This is most likely due to its "sophisticated track arrangement".
As for speed: The Leman Russ is slow - around 35 kp/h on a road, around 25 kp/h in terrain.
The Predator is way faster, around 68 kp/h on a road and around 50 kp/h in terrain.
Both are able to master nearly every terrain in the galaxy - be it sand, ice, mud - they are based on STK designs, after all.

[open_sketchbook]

The Russ is only 35 km/h due to heavy Mechanicus governing on the engine. It seems most of the time this is removed or reduced in the field by the vehicle's crew, boosting speeds considerably. (as high as 79 km/h.)

[Serafina]

I really, really doubt that a Russ can be THAT fast without stripping him of most of his armor and weapons.

Reason? It contradicts various in-game rules. While taking 40K rule values for calculations is not a good idea, we can still use them for comparsion. And this comparion clearly tells us that a Leman Russ is slower than every other vehicle in game (expect Monoliths and superheavies).
Predators have always been faster than Leman Russ' - at least in the fluff and in Epic. Space Marines are highly mobile armies, after all. And unless you want to argue that Predators are way faster than ~ 68 kp/h, you have to place the speed of a Russ somewhere below that. 35/25 kp/h sounds reasonable - and there are propably some Russ variants out there with ~45 kp/h or something like that, but there is no chance in the Eye of Terror that a simple machine modification will more than DOUBLE the speed. Thats just, well, stupid.

Of course, it's worth to note that they have been slowed down massively with the new codex. But they definately are slower than Predators.

[open_sketchbook]

In-game rules are the lowest entry of canon there is. Do you really think that Tau Pulse Rifles are better than boltguns? Or that Space Marine armour only has a 1/3 chance of protecting you from a shot from a Grot's blackpowder pistol? Or that a modern battle cannon (autocannon) has only a fifty percent chance of penetrating the ramshackle armour of an Ork Trukk? Rules are for fun and balance, not quantification.
Though Russ's can achieve such speeds, the modification don't always get them to that anyway and it should be treated as an absolute maximum. Most of the time a Russ would move rather slowly in a combat environment due to the prevalence of short-ranged infantry-based anti-tank weapons like meltaguns or tankbuster bombs, which are arguably more lethal than most tank-mounted weapons in the universe. Therefore, the Russ needs to keep pace with the infantry. Meanwhile the Predator is accompanying a most likely fully mechanized, Rhino-based Space Marine force, and is more capable of using it's speed.

[Connor MacLeod]

um, where ARE you guys pulling those speeds from, aside from the IA one (35 kph.. the IA speed value)

[SAMAS]

In-game rules are the lowest entry of canon there is. Do you really think that Tau Pulse Rifles are better than boltguns? Or that Space Marine armour only has a 1/3 chance of protecting you from a shot from a Grot's blackpowder pistol? Or that a modern battle cannon (autocannon) has only a fifty percent chance of penetrating the ramshackle armour of an Ork Trukk? Rules are for fun and balance, not quantification.

Yes. No. Depends.

[Serafina]

Well, of course rules are low canon, overwritten by everyone else.

You can not use them for direct quantification - but a rule is still stating something. And the special rule for the Leman Russ states thats it is slower than most vehicles.

Saying "well, according to the rules, power armor only absorbs 1/3 of the damage" is obviously wrong - armor just doesn't work that way.
But looking at the armor value of both power armor and eldar exarch armor (3+), we can see that they are roughly equal. There are propably still a lot of differences, and this observation will be overwritten by every other canonic source.
But we can still draw some information out of it.

As for my sources, i looked it up at the Lexicanum - a warhammer wiki.
The german entry for the Predator refers to Imperial Armour for the speeds. And, as already mentioned, it states 35 kp/h for the Russ.
Aside from the 35/25 and 68/50 kp/h values, all other values are estaminations for variants.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Are meltas superior to lascannons? Any chance the sponsoons could mount a lascannon like the Predator Annihilator?

[SAMAS]

Meltas are superior against vehicles only at close-range. At half the weapon's range, they get a bonus to penetrate armor.

And no, no current Russ configuration allows lascannon sponsons. They can all get one in the front, though.

[Cykeisme]

The meltagun has an exceptionally short range for a weapon, but at extremely close range, it is incredibly effective at melting through armour.
The lascannon's range, on the other hand, is good, and it's strong.. but not as good as a meltagun.

While game mechanics can't usually be taken as indications of the in-universe effects, they may be used as a basis of comparison here.

A Lascannon has a 48" range, and all along that range, it has a uniform effect of S9, AP2. Thus, it is 9+1d6 penetration against vehicles.
Out of universe, for normal human infantrymen, a lascannon is a heavy crew-served weapon that needs some time to be setup on a tripod and its portable power source needs to be carefully monitored.

A Meltagun has a 12" range, S8, AP1. One point less Strength, but the AP1 gives it a bonus on the vehicle damage table.
Plus, there's the special "melta" effect.. at half range (6" or less), its vehicle armour penetration is 8+2d6. So at very close range, it is far more effective.
Meltaguns are also far more portable, with a single man being able to carry a meltagun. Since it's used at such close range anyway, it can be fired while on the move as well.

It's also worth noting there's a heavy weapon called a Multi-Melta that is too large for use even as a crew-served weapon. In the Imperial Guard, it's usually mounted on vehicles. Like the lascannon, a single power armoured Space Marine can still carry it (with a large back-mounted power supply) and fire it from the shoulder, though.