Target practice (2008-07-22)

[General Soontir Fel]

I have a question about one of his claims: that there are no hypermatter reactors on planets. Does that have any canon basis, or did he pull it out of his ass?

[Darth Ruinus]

THere is nothing canon on the rate of fire.

Oh woops, thats true, I was thinking of the light guns.

We see the mains on a Venator rip off 3 in 1 second, in ANH the Devestator fires steadily at 1 shot / sec per cannon.

Correct me if I am wrong but, I am very sure we never see any ISDs fire their heavy guns in ANH.

[Wyrm]

Man, this is the second time Mr. Genius has sent me a webpage. And by "Webpage", I mean a whole fucking page snipped out of a browser and posted as text.

<snip image and WHOLE GODDAMN IMAGE PAGE of a WIKI>

Again, you show your incompetence, cupcake! Not only can't you send me a fucking link (it's as easy as copying the URL in the fucking toolbar of your browser, which in this case would be <http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ima ... aTorch.JPG>), but you quoted it completely without commentary of what, exactly, this was supposed to prove.

Though I can probably guess. Is this supposed to be your attempt to show, "DUH! LOOKIE! A STAWR TWEK LIGHTSABER!!!"? Get real, cupcake. You didn't send any referenced description of what this toy is supposed to be capable of. What's the estimated power output of this thing for cutting? Also, how long is it supposed to last on a single charge? And if it's a lightsaber equivalent, why does Mr. Reed need full-body protective gear, whereas Luke Skywalker didn't?

There wasn't even an argument there to rebut. I feel so unfulfilled.

[Darth Wong]

I can't understand how you can be patient enough to keep dealing with this crap. This guy is a kiddie twit, and he's not even a stupid but sincere twit. He has to know what a dishonest asshole he's been. He must know you're way over his level of comprehension because he doesn't even understand half of the concepts under discussion, but he still keeps pretending that the opposite is true.

[Wyrm]

To be frank, I needed the chew toy. And, as the thread title says, target practice.

[NecronLord]

So many of you positions are illogical and just silly. You claim a ridiculous axiom about the incredulity of an event not being an argument against it. That's one of the stupidest concepts I ever heard of. That would mean that the most far fetched fancefull junk, including the worst ST stuff ever written science wise is just as realistic, and serious as the best hard science fiction ever written. Capt Janeway,& LT Paris "Evolving" into "Primal" Reptiles.= the novel I Robot. Lost in Space = The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Battle of the Planets = the novel Star Ship Troopers. The Andromeda Strain = Godzilla. The very concept is an affront to reason, science, and good taste. We all love some junky stuff, I even like Godzilla, but don't tell us every thing is = and every thing carries just as much weight.

Wait a second. Is he honestly trying to justify argument from incredulity?

Wyrm, you've earned my respect for having the patience to deal with this idiot.

I like that he very definately associates realism and quality. Pffaw. Junky stuff my arse.

Ignoring that a lot of those things aren't 'hard sci-fi' (Seriously. The Asimov and Heinlien titles for a start, have FTL) I would rather read EE. Smith, with his hilarious levels of wanktastic destruction and square jawed, efficient, educated MAN characters (and that's just the villains) whose psychic powers make Sith Lords like ordinary joes over most pretentious hard sci-fi drivel any day.

The thing isn't that bits like Star Trek Voyager and such are unrealistic.

It's that they suck.

[Darth Wong]

I think his big problem is that he thinks "reason, science, and good taste" actually belong together. The third one is purely subjective, yet he thinks it belongs together with logic and science. It tells you a lot about his mentality; he's so ignorant that he doesn't understand the huge distinction.

[Wyrm]

Well, folks, I've washed my hands of Moron Bob, as my head was beginning to ache from his wall of ignorance. Here's round one of my final exchanges.

--CUT HERE--

While bantering with you has given me good chance to sharpen my claws, as of this point it's getting rather tiresome. I'm cutting off this exchange in two rounds.

<snip>

It does get tiring. I take it you think this stuff is real and your TV has an instrument panel on it that takes real world reading on what you see, then lets you do calculations on it?

No, actually, I _don't_ think that. All that is necessary is to treat the objects and events _as if they were real_, and go from there.

<snip>

If you asked George Lucas if Alderaan had planetary shields and he said no, would that settle the argument? If the guys who did the special effects said they were just doing a world blow up effect, not a shield effect, would you admit you wore wrong?

The LucasFilm canon policy is set up so that _the body of work_ determines the shape of the Star Wars continuity, not any statement by Lucas or the filmmakers.

If Lucas and his filmmakers care enough about eliminating the full planetary shields about Alderaan, then let them make the New Revised Special Edition film that overrides the Special Edition film, and let them take great pains to make sure that nothing consistent with a planetary shield effect were in this film, and be done with it. Upon examining the work, I'll conclude that the shielding effect is indeed eliminated and we can go from there.

That Lucas doesn't means he doesn't care enough about eliminating the shield effect to make sure it isn't there (or may even fully endorse it), and so will let the work speak for itself.

So, yes, I will conceed such, provided that THIS is the form the evidence takes.

<snip>

Small under ground nuclear tests hollow out chambers near that size, and in space the so called fire ball is a larger and longer lasting effect, so I suspect one could do the job. When you dismiss what I think you show you self to be a fool because you have no idea what I know I about nuclear tests smuck. You don't need to completely vaporize the rock, the SD did have shields.

God, you're a fuckhead. Fallacy of accident: you're expecting results from an UNDERGROUND TEST to apply equally well _in space_. There is nothing more different from solid rock than a fucking vaccuum! Your experience is _worthless_, cupcake.

Darkstar is ignorant of the physics of the vaporization energy of a 40 m asteroid and the fragmentation energy of a 400 m asteroid. With such atrocious math, I wouldn't trust him to calculate a restraunt bill. Your guess is completely uninformed by actual knowledge, so it's just about as worthless.

Your problem with Darkstar isn't his math, it's that he doesn't accept Mike's basic premise of SW superiority.

Wrong. My problem with Darkstar is _not only_ can't he do math and physics, but he ALSO takes the basic premise of _Star Trek_ superiority, and in comes his twisted logic and what can only laughingly be called "science". I (and Mike) have no problems admitting that there are powers in Sci-Fi that are able to do to the Empire what the Empire would do to the Federation. There's even an SDN thread in Other Sci-Fi forum that lists some powers that whip the Empire's tail: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... eat+empire

Oops, looks like the Galactic Empire (Star Wars) is curbstomped by the Xeelee, Photino Birds, the Expansion-era humans (Xeeleeverse), the Culture, the Uplift old powers, the Gnosis (Xenosaga), the Time Lords, the Daleks, the Galactic Empire (Azimov's Foundation), the Perryverse, and the Hitchhikerverse, to name just a few, as well as "mights" too numerous to mention. Right there on Mike's own forum, with Mike well-aware that people are talking about universes able to soundly spank the Empire.

So where's this "basic premise of SW superiority" you talk about, cupcake?

Looking over both sites I admit a lot of the higher physics is over my head,

And this is _exactly_ your problem, cupcake. You are in ABSOLUTELY NO POSITION to judge whether or not Mike's or Darkstar's figures make sense. Further, because of his obvious lack of education, even _Darkstar_ isn't in a position to judge whether his or Mike's figures make sense!

it not my back ground I leave that to a dork like you, but Darkstar makes a lot more sense.

Darkstar doesn't actually make any sense; you're just stare astonished at the obfuscated language of his arguments, and ASSUME he makes sense because you feel the same astonishment when you read about real science. To someone with an actual science background, it's as plain as night and day.

I do know about out comes, and a 200 gigaton blast would end the human race.

It would end the human race on MODERN EARTH. SW powers are more resiliant. They have to be.

Saying slave 1 busting up some meteors demonstrated more firepower then the Enterprise E is ridicules, those charges were like 250 lb bombs.

And yet, they are _clearly_ able to deliver. Again, the argument from incredulity is a fallacy.

Luke shooting up the flak tower on the First DS was a "Hiroshima event". come on, that was 15-20 kt blast?

Easily. You just don't know how much energy it takes blow these things up, or what such an explosion would look like, cupcake.

Darkstar took from the novelazation the concept of the conversion beam to explain how the DS works. No hypermatter BS, it's just what you see, fusion. You can't accept that because it's a lesser power source then matter/antimatter.

Blow me, cupcake! It'll be the most pleasure you've ever given to any other human being, including your mom. I already blew the nuclear fusion argument out of the water by pointing out the obvious fuel problem, a problem independent of the power or manner of operation of the proposed nuclear fusion reactor. Simply repeating the position is not an answer to any of my points.

By the way what writer created hypermatter, and does George Lucas know about it?

It doesn't matter; George Lucas doesn't care enough about the matter to deny it. Hypermatter is in. Suck it, cupcake.

<snip>

No stupid not my word watch the movie. Your such a dork. Don't you see how stupid it makes you sound when you say that.

Are you going to spring for a DVD to send me, asshat? Are you going to pay me $300 an hour for my time to analyze it? No? Then do it your _damn_ self, cupcake. Take some sceneshots, note the time indecies, gather some supporting data, get a good science textbook, and get cracking.

<snip>

when you see a car pull a tight U turn do you calculate a mathematical formula before you believe what you just saw? If the numbers come out wrong do you say no I didn't happen? Or I got the numbers wrong? You do know you sound very existential here? Reality is subjective not objective? I have to prove what you saw really happened, or it didn't? Well your right Tom It didn't happen. It was only a movie.

Wow. Thanks for the news flash, cupcake.

I'll acknowledge the car pulled the U-turn maneuver if I see it, but I have to _do the figures_ to decide if the event really is impressive or only just LOOKS impressive. The problem with you is that you sound very easy to impress. Sorry, cupcake, spaceships with awesome performance have been floating around sci-fi since its beginning. If you find ST impressive and SW mind-boggling rediculous, don't read any Culture books, Azimov Foundation series, or any of the Doctor Who EU. In fact, don't watch Doctor Who either. If you think the Empire's bad, those will give you outright seizures.

Oh, by the way, are you using the falliciousness of the argument from incredulity against _me_ now, that I would deny a fairly-calculated but high performance is thrown out because I can't accept it? Add "hippocrit" to the list.

<snip>

Ok were going in a circle Tom. A fan saw the special effect, some one wrote that it looked like a shield effect.. Fans started writing fiction with shields in it. The EU was born, some EU stories have PS in them, it all comes from that FX shot. If the FX shot goes the whole thing goes. Like a time travel story were you go back in time and change an event and watch history unravel.

Except, of course, the planetary shield effect is STILL there, because... you know... YOU'VE FAILED TO DEMOLISH MY COUNTERARGUMENTS!!

<snip>

Please give me an on screen example of a blast other then the DS that destroyed a planet, or even a region of one? Or any thing bigger then a 40 meter rock.

Said like the movie evidence is the only source admissible, that you're denying the EU. Too bad, cupcake, that you have yet to exclude it, as you have yet to refute _any_ of my rebuttal against Darkstar's insane canon argument. I'm not falling for it.

The BDZ is in the EU, and requires on the order of a billion megatons to execute. Deal with it.

There are many in ST. I guess these makes them much more kick ass.

Oh? When has ST destroyed such a rock?

<snip>

They seem to have a lot of soft targets dork. If a SD was a boxer he would have a glass jaw, rubber legs, and a soft gut. Just what part of them is hard?

Excuse me? Are you saying that the area of "softness" on a SD is in any way comparable to that of its area of "hardness"? You're hillarious! At best, the area is only comparable to the boxer's eyes ONLY. Smaller, even; sensor domes and bridges aren't nearly that big, compared with the rest of the SD.

<snip>

We saw the whole bridge structure taken off,

Lie. Show the bridge structure separated from the rest of the SD.

and the novel suggested the ship was lost.

Prove that you aren't reading that from the inside wall of your small intestine.

The next time I see the movie I have to see, but I think the scene where the admiral tells Vader the Fleet has sustained heavy damage is before the asteroid strike. The Fleet was getting it's brains kicked out. Like a Naval Fleet caught in hurricane.

You have no proof this heavy damage was anything other than the result of light impacts sustained over a long period of time. If you get pricked with enough needles, you'll eventually collapse, too.

<snip>

Wrong dork your all out of context, and order. The Rebels come in, in two groups, fighters and cruisers. The TIE Fighters attack the rebel cursers, not the fighters. If they wanted to destroy the fighters they would attack the fighter group, da! What's so hard to under stand? You clearly see TIE Interceptors shooting at the cruisers as they fly past them. There are no rebel fighters with them at the start of the battle.

TIME. INDECIES. ASSHOLE!!

You have yet to show EVEN ONE shot of a TIE fighter firing on a cruiser for the sake of firing on a cruiser!

And you have YET to explain Lando's SURPRISE that the SD were NOT attacking!! If it were a _standard tactic_ that fighters go it alone, SUCH A TACTIC WOULD NOT SURPRISE HIM!!

There's no fancy math involved just looking at pictures, a dumb old guy like me can do that. Surly a GENIUS like you can do that?

That's part of the problem, isn't it? It _doesn't_ take a genius to see that _Lando was surprised_ by the fact that only the fighters were attacking... that this was NOT standard tactics. It _doesn't_ take a genius to figure out that covering your capitol ships once fighters show up would be _standard tactics_. It _doesn't_ take a genius to figure out that the Emperor would want his capitol ships well clear of his precious Death Star's superlaser blasts. It _doesn't_ take a genius to figure out that a capitol ship ought to be more dangerous to a capitol ship than a fighter is.

This, among other evidences, leads me to believe that you are not just stupid, but _willfully_ deceptive.

<snip>

My apologies, that was dumb of me. I should say a 200 gigaton blast would reduce a 40 m rock to atoms.

Indeed, and an atomized asteroid would be just as invisible. No electron recombination radiation or bremsstrahlung, you know, even if it was ionized.

<snip>

I did dummy they cut a 5" gun crew from 15-3 . The Fletcher class Destroyer was the most common US DD of WW it had 5, 5" gun' so hd 75 Gunners Mates, plus more manning 40mm and 20mm guns. The Burke Class DDG51 Class has 1, 5" gun.manned by 3 men. Phalanx point defense system is fully automatic. The Fletcher ran fully loaded about 2,500 ton with a crew of about 330, the Burke is about 9,200 tons with a crew of about 380. The Cleveland land class light Cruiser was a bit bigger then the burke at 14,131 ton - 2,000 for armor and feed water 608' 63' crew 1,255. The Burke gives you a lot more combat power on a smaller hull then the Cleveland with less then 1/3 of the men.

CITE. THE. NAVY. STATEMENT! Doncha know what "cite" means, idiot? Quote it, word for word! Put in a link! Show that a Navy official credits reduced manpower on such a Navy ship directly to the use of automatic systems!

Oh, right. You don't because you _can't_!

<snip>

So are you saying a Turbo Lasar bolt = 500kt?

An Imperial-class Star Destroyer LIGHT turbolaser bolt is AT LEAST 500 kt, yes. It's a lower bound, and there are, of course, heavier guns. Much, much heavier guns.

<snip>

Do you dispute that a PT with 1.5 kg each of matter/antimatter will produce about a 62 MT blast?

If you assume 100% annihilation, yes, but that's rarely the case in _any_ reality. Prove that efficiency of the reaction even approaches this amount.

<snip>

The Iron is slag dork, ever herd the term? Oh I forgot it not used in higher mathematics.

Funny, I thought it was *tritanium* that the asteroid was laced with and... um, _hindered it's mechanical breakup_! There's no slag that _I'm_ interested in, moron.

Again, nobody can be this obtuse.

<snip>

How come no one raids St Thomas in the US Virgin Islands?

Because no pirate has a nuke to threaten St Thomas with.

<snip>

That's why people arm them selves for protection. They form governments, have militaries, arm merchant ships. That's why the trade Federation is allowed to have weapons. Assuming you had a planetary shield systems and you put your money into that it would be a passive system. Pirates are light weight opponents if all you can do is set up a shield that means your commerce is stopped your blocked till help from some one else comes. When the Tripoli Pirates attacked American shipping we sent a fleet after them, we didn't build forts to guard are ports. Once more you didn't think it out. Pirates come and block all commerce till you pay tribute. No bombing but you still pay tribute, so your not much better off. Better to have active forces to keep the pirates away the commerce flowing. freedom is never free,

Except the *only* means to protect a planet from some asshat dropping a few thousand megatons of energy onto you is a _complete planetary shield_, and you've _already_ forbade anyone from having those in SW. It's one of the major premises of Darkstar's house of cards. If pirates regularly sail the seas armed with multi-megaton nuclear warheads, you'd be giving regular tribute too. Check and mate, cupcake.

<snip>

Humor is relative, son. Your serious arguments are so hillarious that it's hard to tell when you're joking. My not typing out my laughter was a courtesy to you; a courtesy that's wearing thin, bucko.

You remind me of some of my students over the years.

You teach kids? I feel sorry for your students. Oh wait. I don't believe a word you say.

smart asses with a little knowledge understanding even less.

When will you start proving that I have little knowledge or understanding?

Desperate for respect, and always needing to be in the majority.

You think I'm despirate for _your_ respect? That's funny! You're a chew toy, and who respects a chew toy?

You think SDN gives your arguments some kind of strength?

No, I expect my arguments to stand on their own merits, but I expect SDN to critique my analysis. So far, they've stood up fine. You're deluding yourself if you believe you have even scratched them.

If a million people cheer you on it doesn't matter if your all pinheads.

Prove that Mike Wong or anyone else there is a pinhead. I've yet to see convincing evidence.

Any one can look at the movie and see your wrong.

Anyone can look at the _same_ movies and see that you're LYING.

1 Imperial fighters attacking rebel cruisers.

Stated without proof.

2 Asteroid knocking the bridge off the SD.

Stated without proof.

3 Aldaraan Planetary Shield effect on DVD is gone.

Stated without disproving my rebuttal on this very point.

4 Fighters Damaging big ships though out the movies.

Stated without proof that this damage was anything more than "soft-spots."

<snip>

You told me you put it on SDN I could give a shit. I have never read it there. I have never been in contact with Darkstar, but I like his site. I like a lot a people's sites, they put a lot of work into them. I respond to what you write to me. I shared some of what you wrote with a friend of mine, and he told me your just a stupid kid, and that it's a waste of time talking to you. I tell him it's just funny. That was the reason at first was the argument was funny. Then I started to do some research into the hypermatter BS and started to under how deep and convoluted this argument had gotten over the years. No one in the 1980s thought SW ships were powered by any thing other then fusion, so no one would have ever suggested SDs could stand up to ST Star Ships one on one. ever argument was some thing like 10-1 or 100-1.. Or could 50 fighters damage a starship? Now the Warsies have recreated the SW universe and upscale it so they think they have a quantitive advantage along with qualitative advantage. Planetary shields. 200 gigaton weapons. power plants more energetic then the Sun. Star War was always supposed to be a fantasy but you guys are deep into comic book land.

That's right. SW is hella powerful, which is why Darkstar is insane when he declares that ST is more powerful. It's like pitting a puppy against Superman and expecting the puppy to win.

I admit I'm a big Superman fan you should be above this. Oh I have been in this argument, Warsies have told me a Jedi or more likely a Seth like you would cut Superman"s head off. He's just an over rated big weenie like those ST guys.

I would thank you for not projecting others' positions onto me, cupcake.

<snip>

Does your supervisor play with a lightsaber?

No.

<snip>

Last night I meet a retired master chief QM who served on a Burke class Destroyer, and I asked him a few questions about what we were arguing about. He told me the 5" gun does have 3 men under it, like I said, and they can reload and fire it but they cant aim it. He explained that if CIC were taken out that would be it, which surprised me. He told me there is just no place else on the ship to put a back up station, even on a 9,000 ton hull. On the plus side he explained the CIC is a very large well protected compartment with many redundant stations in it. So a good part of it could be destroyed and you could still fight the ship. The best defense of the ship is it's stealth, he told me this 505' by 62' 9,000 ton ship appears like a 17' sail boat on radar. Radar, and IR Missiles find it almost imposable to lock on. We hope. Of course it has jamming, ESSE, standard missiles, phalanx, and that gun. Of course if you don't want to believe me that's up to you kid, I live in a Navy town, so I meet a lot of sailors.

Of course I don't. You say you've talked to some nameless master chief on a navy ship with this system, yet you can't cite a single news article, not one official statement, not one single white paper on this subject? Don't you realize how ridiculous this sounds?

Then again, you've lied to me from day 1. What's another lie or two?

<snip>

Actually I have never lied to you smuck, you see your subjective conclusions as religious truth, and those who disagree with you as liars. You would have fit in well with the Inquisition.

There! See? There's a lie right there! My conclusions are not a "religious truth", but the best conclusions the evidence supports. I have never made out any claim here be an absolute truth on the same level the religious consider their "religious truthes". Every conclusion is open to revision. The _snag_ is that the counterargument needs to be referenced and well-reasoned. You have failed these requirements.

Again you think you have an instrument panel on your TV set so you can do the MATH on the special effects which you think are the true measure of what's happening on screen.

Another lie. We _assume_, for the purposes of the discussion, that the special effects depict a real event within that universe, and go from there to theorize what kind of real event would cause something that looked like the special effect to appear onscreen. It requires nothing more than a pair of eyes, a reasoning and well-educated brain, and maybe a ruler.

The reasoning, well-educated brain is the toughest of the three to obtain, so it should be no surprise you don't have one.

Because there is no tech nobaal in SW to by go you can just make up the numbers, and do the MATH.

What the hell is a "tech nobaal"?

Plus, I notice you emphesize "MATH" very often. Like it's a curse word. Typical knuckle-dragging troglodite.

Sure you can make up your own tactics, like controlling fire.

Different enviroments make this a necessity.

Have your ships drop there shields in an asteroid field so they can communicate via hologram, and consider it worth it because you only lost one SD, and damaged a few others.

Lie. It was a stupid order, but it was better for my long-term survival that I obey it and hope for the best. No one could've known that the asteroid would come along and smack the side of the ship _right then_. In fact, you have _still_ yet to prove that it was anything more substantial than comms damage, other than say, "It took out the bridge! I have no evidence, but it should be obvious! Trust me!" You are neglecting the very fact that the "obviousness" of this damage is one of the _very points under dispute_!

Order your fighters to attack cruisers that they can't hurt, thus taking losses for no reason.

Yet another lie. I have never claimed that the fighters in ROTJ were going after the cruisers at all, until the Rebel cruisers engaged the Star Destroyers. In fact, in the film NOT ONE of those TIE fighters ever purposefully fired on a Rebel cruiser — there's always a Rebel fighter in front of the TIE, which it was clearly following! I know this because I _actually watched the movie_.

Thinking a passive defense like shields will stop the pirate problem, you still get blockaded, and still have to pay tribute. Yea your a strategic and tactical GENIUS, who has nothing to learn from me, or Alexander the Great.

Yet more lies. The _only_ thing I claimed there was the planetary shield is a _necessary_ part of the defense. Without it, NO defense would work against a pirate fleet. I absolutely did NOT claim it was a _sufficient_ defense against pirates. You *still* need the Imperial fleet to drive off the pirates, if you have nothing else.

How the hell did you even make it to your teens and not be able tell the difference between a _necessary_ condition and a _sufficient_ condition? Does your car refuse to start now, due to the fact that you think you don't need gas because you have the _necessary_ key?

Who could teach you any thing? Only the GREAT Mike Wong could teach you the higher math, and you would believe.

You have lied to me no less than FIVE TIMES in the last paragraph alone. I say again, if I listened to you, I _would_ be a fool.

One down.

--CUT HERE--

Re: FusionTorch

your such a whinny cry baby. It specks for it's self dummy. A plasma torch is no big deal.

Why? Because YOU say so? You need to show the lightsaber equivalent in Trek before you can say its no big deal.

SW has a patent on them , so seeing one in a ST episode was just a joke.

Of course the ST one is a joke. You don't seem to grasp how hard it is to put together a device that is _that_ compact, able to hold plasma into a shape _that_ disproportionately longer than itself, and have that blade cut through metal bulkheads in minutes and most other substances with a single pass, lasts as long as it does, AND does not cook your hands off its grip through heat transfer through the air. If you knew anything about plasma physics, you'd know how hard a combination this is to achieve.

Meanwhile, you have not quantified the capabilities of the ST plasma torch.

Like seeing the Enterprise fly over the capital in one of the prequel movies.

Pics or it didn't happen.

You take your self to seriously.

I'm arguing one side of an imagined conflict between two imaginary universes. How serious can this be? What _is_ serious is the kind of woolly thinking you're displaying. If you foul up this much with an imaginary scenario, god help us all if you were put on any _serious_ project!

As for safety equipment when welding with a plasma torch, use some common sense for once. Did you ever weld any thing? Did you use gloves, and goggles? It's not a math problem, it's a safety problem dork, but I forget as a commander you have no regard for the lives of your men. It's a Sith thing I guess.

As a matter of fact, I _did_ try my hands out on an arc welder in 7th grade shop class. That's when I discovered that welding wasn't for me.

That welding requires safety equipment just to _operate_ is precisely my point. Luke could operate the lightsaber without any special safety equipment in ANH, and he was completely untrained in the Force. This is the same kind of weapon that would melt through thick metal bulkheads in a few minutes and cut effortlessly through most flesh and metal. And the cast-off sparks during the barge battle of ROTJ didn't seem to bother Han or Chewie.

In case you're wondering where this fits in the rounds mentioned in my previous message, this is still round one. (My fault, I should've remembered this little diversion.) If you respond to it before the rounds in the other thread are up, I'll merge it into that one. If not, that's the end.

[Wyrm]

Second round:

--CUT HERE--

Hi Tom

Just 2 more rounds? to bad this was getting fun.

It's getting boring for me and I want to conclude this quickly. You've had plenty of time to answer my points, present your proof, and make your arguments stick. If you could do it, you would've started long ago.

It does get boring being called a liar every time you disagree.

I've only called you a liar when I've caught you lying.

When I told you about the 5 inch gun I said Google 5 inch 54. Simple. Most of the facts about the ships I mentioned can also be goggled. What's so tough smart guy?

The fact that "5 inch 54" returns over one million hits? Which link to I choose, shitstain? You claim to be a teacher, yet you don't grasp the simple concept of a 'citation'? That you're saying the equivalent of "Look it up in millitary-type books" in your bibliography? That's one more lie to add to your list.

Are you afraid Google is working with Darkstar and me? Google USN Smart Ships.

466 thousand hits. You _did_ know Google returns *multiple results*, right? Why should I waste my time working through them trying to find the one article you're talking about, when you already have a link to it? Unless you DON'T have it, in which case, why do you expect any of these hits to contain the proof you need?

The whole point of the program is to decrease crew size. Any one who understands naval warfare over the last 100 years understand what I have been talking about, you don't, you just want to argue.

So you say, from I mouth _I know_ has lied. You told me what my positions were, and totally distored them into strawmen before proceeding to dismantle these strawmen. I'd like to think I know my own positions better than you do, cupcake.

Anyone can understand _why_ the navy would like to reduce crew sizes. Less people at risk, fewer personel to train and pay. However, anyone who's studied warfare in the last 100 years _also_ knows that warfare is the very definition of an arms race. Your enemies get better, so you have to do the same just to remain in the same place. Automation isn't simply a way to reduce your crew, it's a force multiplier — the effectiveness of your crew you have is increased. If your enemy was not getting better, then automation would allow you to reduce crew sizes, as your crew able to deliver the same performance with reduced manpower. But rare is the enemy that stands still. Therefore, your "automation = reduced crew sizes" assertion is spurious logic. You have yet to produce any _real_ proof.

As for telling you about my conversation with the master chief, why would I lie about it?

Do I have to spell it out for you? You're a bullshitter. You cite an _unnamed_, _UNVERIFIABLE_ source for your information, even though I clearly wanted something I could verify _myself_. If I had a student that pulled that kind of "private conversation with a certain anonymous master chief in the Navy" bullshit with me, I'd fail his paper right then and there.

It showed I was wrong about there being back up systems, you were so quick to call me a lier you missed the point of the story. SW ships have huge crews ST relatively small crews big crews must be better? No all real world tech trends would indicate the higher tech ship would have a smaller crew, more automation. Again SDs use individual gun targeting. Even in WWII the USN had central fire control. Google mk37.

63 thousand hits. Pay me if you want me to do YOUR work for you. My research time costs $300 an hour, cupcake.

ST ships have central fire control clearly a more modern effective powerful concept. You never addressed it, it just got lost in the hail of lie, lie, lie, unproved, failed, startard, responses you use to avoid the points that go over you head.

The basic problem I have with you here is that you are going out of your way to make it difficult for me to verify your sources. When you ask for proof, I at least _try_ to make it easy for you to find it (the only time I told you to google something, and you failed, I sent you the quote directly). You don't. You allude to Google searches with multiple hits, expecting ME to do YOUR work of supporting your argument FOR you, for free no less. You allude to a conversation with Master Chief [NAMELESS], quartermaster of the USS [NAMELESS]in your Navy town of [NAMELESS]. How the fuck am I supposed to go about verifying this? I can't, so I won't.

There's only one reason I can think of why you'd do this: you have jack and squat, and you're trying to cover up for it.

Shield effect. The point your missing is the FX people and Lucas never intended to show a shield effect. That's why when they did the DVD they was no regard to showing the outer atmospheric effect the theory is based on. Even you have to admit if the original effect looked like the DVD version Planetary Shields would never have been thought of. Since the idea was born from a special effect how can you say it doesn't matter what the FX people were trying to show? If they wanted to show a shield they would have showen it even more clearly.

Bullshit. Lucas wanted to jazz up the effect, on account that the original effect looked pretty goofy, shield or no shield. Nothing more. Shield's still there. Furthermore, it doesn't matter a whit if the original effect got people thinking about planetary shields, it entered the EU and was there to stay. If he wanted to make sure no shield was exant, he would've consulted a geophysicist and let him specify how the Alderaan event should've played out. But he didn't. He's fine with planetary shields. Deal with it.

Nuclear Tests were not conducted in sold rock. Again you assume you know what I know, and you make an ass of your self.

Assuming solid rock was a courtesy to you. Rock happens to be very good at resisting compression, which is exactly what a nuke underground would produce. NOT detonating in solid rock would tend to make the hole bigger, as the nuke would not spend as much energy breaking rock and overcoming the rock's compressive strength.

Nuclear detonations in space were oabserseved to be more intense, the fire balls bigger and longer lasting.

Lie. _No_ nuke has been detonated in space proper. 500 km high is NOT space, but the bottom of the exosphere, still a million times denser than interplanetary space. Furthermore, the blast was _not_ observed to be more intense, but more _diffuse_, as the blast has to expand more to equalize with the (lower) surrounding pressure. Also, because of that lower pressure, not as much air gets heated by radiative transport. The nukes lasts visually longer because ions would have a harder time finding their electrons in diffuse air; radiation from recombination would be spread out over a longer time.

Like any explosion in space more of it's energy is radiant heat. That makes nucs more effective in terms of vaporization, and range in space then on earth.

That's like saying "In space, sound is louder because there's no air in the way." In space, there's nothing to stop the superheated bomb remains from expanding, so the vapor ball's energy density goes as r^(-3), and nothing to absorb the radiation from the bomb to form the fireball. If you explode a Little Boy in space, after one second the debris ball will be about 20 km in diameter (4.189e12 m^3), and the 15 kt energy yield will have a density of 15 J/m^3, or 3.6 calories/m^3 — calories, not kilocalories, and that's neglecting the large portion of the energy that will go into gamma and X-rays. You'd barely heat water at all with all the energy you'd find in a cubic meter at that stage.

Well it's not a nuke any way, so when the beam hit it what happened? It looked sort of like a ST "disappear" effect, and I thought you hate that?

If I heat water to its boiling point, the water seems to just "disappear" too. But it doesn't; it properly vaporizes, just like the asteroid did. Vapor isn't known for its opacity. The vapor of the asteroid causes no other effect because there's nothing for it to run into in space and exchange energy with.

I hate "disappearing" acts of phasers only from a physical angle, as it leaves the final state of the target unknown and the weapon yield impossible to calculate. It's obviously not a vaporization, because 60 kg of vapor at 373 K would occupy ~100 m^3 at 1 atm (101 kP), and a human is barely 1 m^3 — there would be a big billowing cloud of hot steam left behind, which would be very obvious.

Have you figured out yet what Turbo Lasers are? Are they powered by Turbo's? Or the main the reactor? If by the main reactor then what do the turbo's do? Are they lasers? If not why do they call them lasers? Are they particle beams? Then whey do they load projectiles into breach blocks? Do the shells explode in proximity or on impact? What kind of warheads do they have? If these blast are so big how come no more then one fighter at a time is ever hit? a multi megaton let alone alone multi gigitonblast would hit a whole fleet of SDs.Since you dismiss phasers as silly tech because the disintegration effect is not well explained in realworld terms,exsplain the science of SW weapons?

God, I thought we laid this shit to rest already. See, you're cargo-culting me again; you're trying to use the form an argument I've used against you against me, trying to make it look like my own, without the faintest idea _why_ the argument works. I'll try to explain it to the _admitted_ physics imbecile once more:

Energy is a _state variable_. The energy input needed to vaporize a block of iron initially at 150 K and solid is the same regardless of _how_, by what mechanism, that block got vaporized. It doesn't matter if you heat it by a proper laser, blast it with a turbolaser, or vaporize it with a suitible nuke. The energy change in the block is _exactly the same_. Turbolasers make stuff vaporize, blow up, and other thermal effects. Therefore, the _final states_ of the targets are quite well specified, as is the initial state, and therefore we know the minimum energy of the blast itself. This is true _regardless_ of the exact mechanism of the turbolaser.

With phasers, it doesn't matter what the mechanism is, the *final state* is _unknown_. The energy input therefore cannot be calculated because we have an UNKNOWN change of energy.

Once again, I will not say how a turbolaser works because I do not know. I DO know that it causes identifible changes in state, whereupon the energy yield of turbolasers may be calculated. Once again, identify the final state of a phaser disappearing act, quantify it, and prove it, and you'll be head and shoulders above Darkstar.

Because ST shields modulate vs what they are attacked by, and they vary their phasers vs enemy shields, and SW shield's and weapons don't this gives them a major advantage after the first shots are fired. The longer the first battle lasts the less effective Empire shields would become, and the more effective the Federation Shields would be. I know you would never agree but being that this is a tech that the Empire lacks their Shields may end up being 50% less effective and the Federation Shields might be 50% more effective. If attacked by fighters a starship just has to extend it shields, the TIE Fighters will run into it and blow up, case closed.

What makes you so certain Imperial shields have this vulnerability? Another statement without proof.

As per you conceding that other sci-fi civilization defeating SW that's fine I was talking about you talking about SW walking over ST. It had nothing to do with what where talking about.

_You're_ the one who brought up the "basic assumption of SW superiority" bullshit, cupcake, and ascribed it to me as "[my] problem with Darkstar".

A 200gigaton blast would end a SW race because it would destroy their atmosphere, and iradeate their people to death just like are's.

Unless you have a strong PLANETARY SHIELD, you ass. 200 Gt turbolaser fire dovetails nicely into planetary shields. Hell, we have small tramp freighters able to travel maybe half an AU in hours (MF: Hoth to asteroid belt in, say, 3 hours) with a mass fraction of 1.1 and assuming a 500 metric tonne MF gives you (to first order) a minimum engine power of 102 Mt/s for the Falcon. And this thing's in the hands of an outlaw smuggler!

Unlike your figures, I didn't make this up, provided the MF does indeed have this performance: It comes from the elementary acceleration-distance formulae (solving for acceleration/deceleration and a known distance and time) to find average acceleration, finding the delta-V from acceleration and time, getting effective exhaust velocity from the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsk ... t_equation, and plugging it into the exhaust power equation, P = F v_e/2, derived here:

P = DK = 1/2 Dm v_e^2 + m v_e D(v_e) (where D = d/dt is a differential operator)

Effective exhaust velocity (v_e) is constant, so the change in the exhaust plume's kinetic energy (K) is due only to the mass flow (Dm): P = 1/2 Dm v_e^2. Because v_e = constant, Dm v_e = D(m v_e) = Dp = F, the thrust of the engine, so: P = F v_e/2. Note that this is a nonrelativistic derevation, which here is correct to first order.

Hiroshima blasts. You seem to have no idea what a massive explosion is vs a beam that causes secondary explosions. All of our arguing about gigiton yields, and blowing up asteroids has gotten us off the mark of what beam weapons do vs what warheads do. Beam weapons hit a small surface area with a concentrated force to cut, or burn though the defense. How strong they are will determine how deep they penetrate. Luke's strafing run lasts about 2 seconds, with I think 2 rounds from each of his 4 guns. He's over the target a few seconds after they hit, and is only about 50 foot off the deck. In-between the shots of Luke firing, we see interior scenes of Imperials getting blown up in hallways, then surface blasts sending blue flame, smoke, and sparks leaping a few hundred feet past Luke's level. into space. That burning blue flame is oxygen burning off and the blast is a secondary explosion. If it not then the metal must be flammable like magnesium, and why would they make armor out of flammable or explosive metal? Or are you saying a beam explodes? But what we see is a trench of damage about half as wide and twice as long as a foot ball field.

There's so much wrong with this it's hard to know where to begin. You admitted you are a physical ignoramus, and you're lecturing ME on physics? Did you forget everything from over the last month? Explosions happen when you have a localized overpressure. Overpressure can occur due to _pure heating effects_, like beam weapons; in fact, most explosions occur like this, even atomic bombs. When you get into really high power beam weapons, you get explosions.

As to the "flammable metal" or "oxygen flame"... Show them. You've obviously seen them, so you'll be able to point them out better than I could. Take a screenshot, circle what you think is the flame, and mail it to me. Because all _I_ see is smoke and white sparks, which is easily _blackbody_ radiation — blackbody radiation is the same irrespective of material.

What? Yes, how dare I demand you prove your own points. I'm just an ugly person that way.

A Little Boy bomb going off on the surface of the DS would have created a fire ball greater then it did over Hiroshima, so well over 1,200' and more intense.

You're working off a rule-of-thumb for nuclear weapon explosions _inside an atmosphere_, you fuck. The fireball of a nuke is actually superheated atmosphere — which by the way, is glowing ORANGE, in an atmosphere that is ~20% oxygen — which will not be availible in space. I already explained this. You had plenty of time to try to demolish this argument. The only reason you haven't is because you can't.

Durasteel melts in lava (Established in ROTS Novelation)

Quote the relevant text, please.

so it's heat resistance is no better then high grade steels today. You would have seen a huge blinding flash, and the vaporization of a chunk of the DS 1,000 feet across and 500 feet deep.

Bullshit. The 15 kt of energy released in the Hiroshima blast would only barely vaporize a cube of iron ~10.15 meters on a side, not the 11 million cubic meters you pretend it would annihilate. You'll notice no big honking 1000 ft wide crater where Hiroshima was.

Remember only the first couple of decks could be armored, resources, and weight. It would just melt though, like the levels of a building, it's mostly hollow space. the secondary explosions would be incredible. Just imagine what photon torpedoes would do. You may understand the physics and I give you credit for that, but you don't seem to understand what an atomic bomb does.

What was vaporized in the Hiroshima bomb was people and light organics, based on prologned (seconds) contact with superheated atmosphere. The buildings were pushed down by mechanical action from the shockwave, not vaporized. There was RUBBLE left behind.

On that note a PT or QT being shielded that's why they glow would go off several decks inside the DS, which would just add to the secondary damage. according to the "Memory Alfa" site DS9 episodes have established that QT are rated at a yield of 50 Isotons as opposed to the top yield of 25 for PT. That putt's them in the realm of over 100 megatons, with their added superior ability to penetrate shields. They were able to penetrate and destroy a Borg cube, and then a Borg sphere.

You sound easy to impress, cupcake. Demonstrate the performance of a PT or QT, using canon evidence — Memory Alpha is not canon, and stated performance is not observed performance. And why should a QT shield penetration work on a SD shield as it would on a Borg shield.

A 100+megaton explosion on earth would generate a 15 km fireball, in space even more.

You're repeating the same damn argument as if I haven't disproven it. The fireball comes from the fact that nuke is detonating in _an atmosphere_; if there's no atmosphere, there's no fireball. I already explained the density issues previously, and you had plenty of time to answer it. You don't answer because you can't.

How many QT would it take to destroy a DS? You asked about ST WMDs In the Generations movie and in DS9 it was shown Fed scientists understand Trilithium, which can make Suns go nova..

Have to get it into an Imperial sun, first.

In DS9 "A Time To Stand" A bomb of Uitrium vaporizes almost all matter in a radius of 800 km. Good by DS.

Quantify the energy of this event. And don't use your nuke calculator. It's worthless in space.

Biogenic weapons were used by both Star Fleet and the Marquis to render planets uninhabitable for 50 years DS9 "Blaze of Glory".

Has to _reach_ an Imperial planet first.

In Voyager "Dreadnaught" Was a Cardassian attack drone with high function AI top of the line defense and attack systems and 2,000 kg matter/antimatter warhead, that is 50/50. It was a WMD when it reached it's target it would detonate with a yield of 42.96 gigatons. This is 4.3 x the peak of the cold war arsenals, and would end civilation.

It would end a civilization without planetary shields, you mean. And it still has to _reach_ the planet, and it is an obvious target. 200 Gt turbolaser blasts equals one shotputted dreadnaught.

If you want to argue with the source of these calculations go right a head http://edwardmuller.com/17.htm If the Cardassians could build Dreadnaught, the Federation could build some thing even better, since they have the same tech just a little better.

Still have to fuel the thing, still have to get it TO Imperial planets, and still has to overcome firepower that easily outclasses its own explosive yield.

I know It will hurt, but it won't cost you $300.00. Go to the EVIL Darkstars site, (Don't worry I won't tell Mike) and see the movie video of the bridge of the SD being destroyed. If you watch the video there's no dought.

I HAVE the ESB:SE DVD. I've watched it. Still lacks the requisite _bridge debris_ that must logically result from such a destruction. What I _do_ see, going frame by frame, is that the sensor globe we could see just prior is gone, but a faint silhouette of where the bridge should be is moving against the Executor, maybe because it's covered in pulverized asteroid (space dust is very sticky). Looks like that birdge survived mostly intact. In the following scene, with the disappearing captain, we see a flash appear and disappear on the commander's face (who throws up his hand to shield it from the flashes) before it faded out. The captain had time to throw up his hands to shield his face from the flash; if this damage had destroyed the birdge, he would've instantly disappeared. The bridge _survived_, cupcake.

Any one who looks at it can judge for them selves. Since I can't make you or any one look at the ROTJ I can only say to any one with eyes, and mind open just look at the movie and they will wonder what the hell you have been babbling about. So much of what you say is just not on screen.

Like I care what your half-blind, half-dumb imaginary friends say. When my family was watching ROTJ in the theaters when it first came out, Lando voiced the thought that was on the tip of my mind. Even as a child, the tactic didn't make sense except in the light of the Death Star... or its superlaser, to be more precise.

I accept some of what you argue that the SDs at Endor were damaging the cruisers, because even though we don't see it it does make sense. However you carry your theory to the extreme that what we see is trivial, and what is unseen is what really decided the issue. In terms of Endor we know little of the battle's detail's. We know From the Thrwan Books that the Imperials lost 1 SSD and 6 SD out of the 30 SDs there. I don't know how many Cruiser's the Rebels had, and all I know is they lost at least 3 Cruisers. It seems the Rebels did surprisingly well in winning not only a strategic but a tactical victory. I can't explain why can you?

What's there to explain? The Rebels got the drop on the Imperials in a crazy-ass attack, on an opposing fleet whose role was only supposed to keep the Rebels from escaping the DS kill zone, and strength sized to that assumption.

You say you understand tactics and strategy better then me, let's hear an analyses of the battle. Just a paragraph or two. Like how you waxed about needing shields to stop pirates, you conceded the point about blockade. and still said I'm wrong.

God, way to shift the goalposts, mate! It was my argument that _without_ full planetary shields, a pirate fleet can simply threaten to shoot a bunch at an unprotected part of the planet if the don't pay tribute, and no funny business either, or they'll shoot a bunch and leave. Even if the total energy isn't a full civilization-killing 200 Gt, you can still mess a lot of shit up. In that situation, the planet is prepared to pay tribute, because there's no way for it to protect itself against a hit-and-run pirate fleet. The only reason that a pirate fleet would be _forced_ to blockade the planet to get loot is if there is a full planetary shield... the very thing you deny exists.

By the way with out active defenses your still vulnerable to surprise attack from pirates because they look like merchants.

Do I have to explain to you the difference between 'sufficient' and 'necessary' again? Full planetary shields are necessary to defend against the hit-and-run pirates, but not sufficient to repel them. The shield allows you to resist without cost greater than that of paying the tribute. Balls are actually quite rare in the general population, you know.

Such great pearls like planetary shields are a "necessary component for stopping pirates." So if you have a local fleet that, can counter attack and hunt down pirate bases, (that's why pirates don't attack St Thomas), you still have to have planetary shields?

Do I really have to explain the the difference in logistics between hunting down pirate bases on earth and pirate bases in space? St Thomas is defendable by hunting down pirate bases because the number of patrol ships scales with the amount of coastline to patrol (the interior of islands being generally useless for pirate bases), coastline scales to number and size of islands, and the Virgin Islands are part of a chain, so the number of islands scale to the distance out you want patrolled. The problem isn't even 2D; it's 1D. Furthermore, islands are fixed and immobile, and we know where they all are.

Going to space, the situation changes drastically. The problem is now fully three dimensional: You're not patroling miles of coastline, but cubic miles of space. The number of nearby systems you need to patrol goes by r^3. Within 10 pc of your system there are about 4000 stars (1 star/pc^3), and if our solar system is anything to go by, there's going to be a lot of junk in each of them that may serve as a pirate base. Going out 100 pc (10x as far), you're talking 4 million systems to patrol. Even if a ship can patrol 4 systems a day, to keep all of them under survalence such that each one gets patrolled each week, you're still talking about a fleet of one million strong.

But wait, it gets worse! This assumes that the pirate base is some hollowed out asteroid or facility on a planet — some sort of permenant structure. The one million figure is assuming the "pirate base" is anything more than just some asteroid pirates hitch up their spacecraft to while they plot and plan and debauch. In this case, continuous survalence is needed, in which case you're going to need one ship per system at least for coverage.

But what if your "pirate base" is actually a small surplus cruiser that some head pirate acquired, and lets other pirates use for a portion of their tribute? Now the pirates can simply run, base and all, when a patrol stumbles upon them, and they can now set up shop _between_ systems. Even if a patrol ship can scan a system with all its clutter (to about 40 AU), a parsec is 206,260 AU, so to patrol a cubic parsec would require 261 _billion_ ships! To patrol out to 100 pc would take a _quintillion_ ships. That's ten thousand ships for every person on Coruscant.

Who's going to man all of those ships? Who's going to _pay_ for them, as well as their maintenance, depreciation, and expendible costs, and as well as paying and feeding the crew? Even if you accept less than perfect coverage, you're going to paying through the nose for this fleet. Paying the tribute is going to look like a _bargain_ by comparison, and all of your talk of freedom not being free aside, the general population is _not_ going to bankrupt themselves for it.

The numbers are on the pirates' side, cupcake. Planetary shields neatly defeats the pirates' designs in one master-stroke. Your planet is safe, and you cannot be forced to pay tribute, and you can call upon your defense fleet to drive them away when they come. But why pay for your own fleet when there's an Imperal navy to do it for you?

You seem to think pirates act with military discipline, and like to fight pitched battles with heavy losses for the glory of it.

They don't _need_ millitary dicipline. All they have to do is leave a parting gift of a nice juicy wad of energy dropped right on your planet before they skeedaddle. Sure, you might have driven them away, but you're dead anyway (or have a real mess to clean up). The tribute is going to look like a bargain.

Tell me and the Your SDN fans how the Rebels won?

See above.

After this you have one more shot before you surrender so you need to make it good.

All my responses have been _excellent_, cupcake. I have put to you many, many points that you have never answered. You have failed to construct a single argument that I have not been able to knock down. I stand by my permanent record on SDN.

I hope you have a logical argument and not just "lie, startard, failed, prove it, cupcake.

You, who uses logical fallacies on me, and has failed time and again to produce a single shred of evidence whatsoever for his arguments, are tell me that I'm the one who needs to present a logical argument? That's hillarious. When I catch you in a lie, why shouldn't I call you on it? If I doubt the veracity of your claim, why shouldn't I call on you to prove it? Does the truth hurt that much?

Do you work in a bakery?

I work within yards of one. The smell of fresh-baked bread is almost alchoholic.

By the way I'm glad you used goggles when welding, or you might be blind now. That they use goggles to weld with a plasma torch in ST but not in SW is not a sign of tech inferiority it's just a sign of realism.

So you admit that the lightsaber is beyond ST technology.

Like SW fighter pilots having sun visors. Now if only they had presuresuits

Why should they? Any shot that may depressurize the cabin would kill them anyway.

I pass it to you for your parting shot make it good. I'm looking forward to your analyses of Endor. Numbers if you have them, or best guess. How you size up the ship's. Tactics employed. What happened after the DS blow up? Rate performance of each sides fighters, ships gunnery, tactics, moral. Any special weapons employed?

I have already addressed each one of these concerns. Multiple times. You and I know that anyone reading this exchange would decide I've held up my end.

Even better I give you a challenge I read a fan fiction the other night where Q switched the good guy fleets at Endor and Wolf 359. Take a couple of days You try to write those two battles out and see how they turn out. I think I know how You will write them. Each will be one paragraph long the SW side will win with no loss or effort proving not only that you can't write but that your an idiot. Come on surprise me and all your fans who will read you on SDN. Fans always cheer a good fight.

If my fanfiction muse was with me at the moment, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with you, cupcake. My interests lie more with romantic comedies, anyway.

Have a good night kid Bob

I did. Two down, and I'm out and your killfiled. Go ahead and tell whatever stories of my cowardness you want to your fellow Darktards, if it'll make you feel better.

--CUT HERE--

That's all folks. It was fun for a while, but it was time to put this baby to rest.

[The Dark]

As far as nukes go, Little Boy was at most a 16 kiloton bomb, with an energy yield of 6.3x10^13 J. Assuming a surface detonation, a maximum of 50% of the energy would go into the surface of the target, or 3.15x10^13 J. It's more complicated than I can figure to calculate the energy per square meter for such a blast, since it would depend on how the energy spreads from the initial blast, so I ran numbers based on an explosion at the actual distance Little Boy detonated at (580 meters). This would be a sphere of 4,227,327 meters, with energy evenly distributed around it. The total energy input would be 7.451517 MJ per m^2. Under ideal conditions, this would vaporize about 621 grams of aluminum per square meter.

Winchell Chung has a nice little "Boom Table" on this page that I ran across while doing some of the calcs. Assuming I'm reading the chart correctly, it would take somewhere around 9 exatons equivalent to melt Terra's crust; a 16 megaton bomb would be a joke compared to the energy casually tossed about by even small capital ships in the SWverse. (and yes, I know Mike's done more thorough calcs, but I'm pulling the numbers from a neutral site because they're there).

[Wyrm]

The most frustrating thing by far with Cupcake Rob was that it was obvious he didn't even calculate a single goddamn figure, even though for the most part they didn't involve anything more complicated than basic algebra and a reference to basic materials data, freely available on the web. Really, if you can balance a checkbook, you could verify most, if not all, of my calculations yourself.

It's as if he was frightened that, if he worked out the figures himself, he'd come up with the same answers I did, and realized instantly he was full of shit. Is this guy just that addled that he thinks that if he doesn't do the calcs, the math doesn't exist and he can deny? (Even though anyone could calculate themselves that the figures are right?)

Numerous fallacies of accident are a close second. Those damned nuke effects rules. Man, I was sick of them showing up every other message!

[Darth Wong]

The most frustrating thing by far with Cupcake Rob was that it was obvious he didn't even calculate a single goddamn figure, even though for the most part they didn't involve anything more complicated than basic algebra and a reference to basic materials data, freely available on the web. Really, if you can balance a checkbook, you could verify most, if not all, of my calculations yourself.

It's as if he was frightened that, if he worked out the figures himself, he'd come up with the same answers I did, and realized instantly he was full of shit. Is this guy just that addled that he thinks that if he doesn't do the calcs, the math doesn't exist and he can deny? (Even though anyone could calculate themselves that the figures are right?)

Numerous fallacies of accident are a close second. Those damned nuke effects rules. Man, I was sick of them showing up every other message!

I think you're giving him too much credit. He strikes me as the kind of guy who thinks that high-school math was a waste of time because "nobody ever needs to know that stuff later in life". It wouldn't surprise me if the ultra-simple math used for these calculations is actually over his head, and his eyes just glaze over at it so he assumes you're just trying to trick him.

Mind you, we could go the other way and be ultra-charitable. It's also possible that he is actually self-aware enough to realize that the mathematical calculations are not the problem; it is the use of physics assumptions which may or may not be correct, and which he is not qualified enough to judge, so he shouldn't try to do this kind of work. However, that would make him considerably more self-aware than RSA is, which seems unlikely since he apparently thinks of RSA the same way most Republicans think of Rush Limbaugh.

[Lonestar]

Wyrm,

I did dummy they cut a 5" gun crew from 15-3 . The Fletcher class Destroyer was the most common US DD of WW it had 5, 5" gun' so hd 75 Gunners Mates, plus more manning 40mm and 20mm guns. The Burke Class DDG51 Class has 1, 5" gun.manned by 3 men.

He is smoking crack, by the way. A 5" gun may have 3 gunnersmates,but it also has one Firecontrolman in CIC, plus the 4-5(even 6 or 7) guys in the magazine loading it. I know from personal experience.

Phalanx point defense system is fully automatic

I guess it does maintenance all by itself, huh? Or NO ONE stands watch on the system while underway?(the answer is a negative to both things).

Some systems have caused the crew size to be reduced, but not as much as he apparently thinks. Engineering, computers for the ship's office, and even new cooking equipment is the prime mover and shaker of crew reduction, not combat systems.

[Swindle1984]

Like SW fighter pilots having sun visors. Now if only they had presuresuits

Why should they? Any shot that may depressurize the cabin would kill them anyway.

It would be nice to have a pressure suit in the event that you had to eject, or were landing on a planet with a less than hospitable atmosphere.

Porkins was told to eject during the Battle of Yavin. Notice no faceplate on his helmet. Rebel pilot outfits use a small forcefield projected over the face to contain an atmosphere and have an emergency air supply of... what is it, twenty minutes? I forget.

TIE fighter pilots HAVE real pressure suits and their craft have no life support system to speak of (though one could possibly calculate how much air the cockpit holds and figure out how long an unsuited pilot could last.), so their suits have oxygen supplies lasting for hours, if not days.

I confess to having not kept up with the debate with this idiot; what was the point of pointing out that rebel pilots don't have fully-sealed suits/helmets? Trek shuttle crews never wear anything more substantial than pajamas anyway.

[Wyrm]

He is smoking crack, by the way. A 5" gun may have 3 gunnersmates,but it also has one Firecontrolman in CIC, plus the 4-5(even 6 or 7) guys in the magazine loading it. I know from personal experience.

Yeah, we all knew Cupcake Rob was talking out of his ass claiming his magnificent crew reductions. I was clued in when he continuously refused to support the claim, even when I repeated requests for a proper citation and link. Nice to know for sure what the real deal is, thanks.

[Aratech]

Like SW fighter pilots having sun visors. Now if only they had presuresuits

Why should they? Any shot that may depressurize the cabin would kill them anyway.

It would be nice to have a pressure suit in the event that you had to eject, or were landing on a planet with a less than hospitable atmosphere.

Porkins was told to eject during the Battle of Yavin. Notice no faceplate on his helmet. Rebel pilot outfits use a small forcefield projected over the face to contain an atmosphere and have an emergency air supply of... what is it, twenty minutes? I forget.

TIE fighter pilots HAVE real pressure suits and their craft have no life support system to speak of (though one could possibly calculate how much air the cockpit holds and figure out how long an unsuited pilot could last.), so their suits have oxygen supplies lasting for hours, if not days.

I confess to having not kept up with the debate with this idiot; what was the point of pointing out that rebel pilots don't have fully-sealed suits/helmets? Trek shuttle crews never wear anything more substantial than pajamas anyway.

There's an EU book somewhere that has an Imperial refugee making a run for it in a TIE Interceptor. He knows he's a dead man, as he lacks hyperdrive, but death by asphyxiation beat the hell out of the alternative. Although day four has him being rescued, he was all but dead by then from CO2 poisoning.

[Peptuck]

Like SW fighter pilots having sun visors. Now if only they had presuresuits

Why should they? Any shot that may depressurize the cabin would kill them anyway.

It would be nice to have a pressure suit in the event that you had to eject, or were landing on a planet with a less than hospitable atmosphere.

Porkins was told to eject during the Battle of Yavin. Notice no faceplate on his helmet. Rebel pilot outfits use a small forcefield projected over the face to contain an atmosphere and have an emergency air supply of... what is it, twenty minutes? I forget.

TIE fighter pilots HAVE real pressure suits and their craft have no life support system to speak of (though one could possibly calculate how much air the cockpit holds and figure out how long an unsuited pilot could last.), so their suits have oxygen supplies lasting for hours, if not days.

I confess to having not kept up with the debate with this idiot; what was the point of pointing out that rebel pilots don't have fully-sealed suits/helmets? Trek shuttle crews never wear anything more substantial than pajamas anyway.

From the X-Wing novels, we know they have seals they can apply to their suits to seal them from vaccuum. Rebel pilots are apparently fast enough with the seals that they can apply them if they need to eject; there's multiple instances of them goign EVA in the books.

[The Dark]

There's an EU book somewhere that has an Imperial refugee making a run for it in a TIE Interceptor. He knows he's a dead man, as he lacks hyperdrive, but death by asphyxiation beat the hell out of the alternative. Although day four has him being rescued, he was all but dead by then from CO2 poisoning.

Book one of the Black Fleet Crisis. I remember the incident, but don't remember the title of the book.

[General Soontir Fel]

There's an EU book somewhere that has an Imperial refugee making a run for it in a TIE Interceptor. He knows he's a dead man, as he lacks hyperdrive, but death by asphyxiation beat the hell out of the alternative. Although day four has him being rescued, he was all but dead by then from CO2 poisoning.

Book one of the Black Fleet Crisis. I remember the incident, but don't remember the title of the book.

Before the Storm.

[Revy]

What about Luke in Heir to an Empire? In that his X-Wing gets busted escaping from Thrawns Star Destroyer, and he has to suit up and effect repairs in space as he tries to get the hyperdrive and then transmitter working. It even tells us how much air he has.