Autism Speaks: I was Wrong.

[Hotfoot]

Being Deaf is a pretty binary condition. Being on the extraordinarily wide range of Autism is much more multifaceted, and there is no simple fix for it.

Your analogy fails on the face of it Shep. You're talking about a physical disability vs. a wide range of different states of mind. You might as well compare blindness to ADD.

[Terralthra]

Being Deaf is a pretty binary condition. Being on the extraordinarily wide range of Autism is much more multifaceted, and there is no simple fix for it.

Your analogy fails on the face of it Shep. You're talking about a physical disability vs. a wide range of different states of mind. You might as well compare blindness to ADD.

No, it really isn't. Hearing loss is not anywhere close to a binary deaf or not, and you show your ignorance by claiming it is.

They're not entirely analogous, but the points Shep makes are valid.

[Hotfoot]

Being Deaf is a pretty binary condition. Being on the extraordinarily wide range of Autism is much more multifaceted, and there is no simple fix for it.

Your analogy fails on the face of it Shep. You're talking about a physical disability vs. a wide range of different states of mind. You might as well compare blindness to ADD.

No, it really isn't. Hearing loss is not anywhere close to a binary deaf or not, and you show your ignorance by claiming it is.

They're not entirely analogous, but the points Shep makes are valid.

Look, you obviously don't get it. The points are NOT valid, because you're dealing with a very different set of conditions. The idea that you can take something like hearing loss or deafness (which is binary in that you can either hear in the normal range or you cannot), which can be MEASURED SCIENTIFICALLY by what you can or cannot hear, autism is nowhere NEAR as easy to pinpoint, identify, or "correct". There is nothing even remotely similar about the two.

It is not as simple as playing a list of sounds of varying frequencies and amplitudes and checking off which ones work and which ones don't. It's not as easily fixed as splicing in technology to replace or enhance malfunctioning organic tissue. We are talking about altering the human mind, something that has only ever been successful in the most extreme cases, by people who are assuming that the children DO NOT EXIST AS PEOPLE until the work is done.

With all physical disabilities, it is always assumed that the person themselves are whole on a mental level. A blind, deaf, or mute person is not a blank slate, ready to be created by the would-be sculptor, they are a person limited by the whim of nature.

So why the fuck don't you and Shep and everyone who thinks that a fucking pill can do for the brain what a prosthetic leg or cochlear implant can do for the body and go sit in a fucking corner while the people who know what the fuck they are talking about discuss this subject. The differences between the rest of the body and the BRAIN are quite simply massive. We can replace virtually any body part to varying degrees of utility and success, we cannot do that with the human brain. The best we can do is shove in some chemicals and hope something happens.

[MKSheppard]

Explain how 'Look how icky it is' is comparable to 'It's really quite unpleasant to be given whatever pill this is without any goddamn testing' or other such treatments. Really, please. I'll wait.

You're trying to argue over disabilities with someone who is not only Deaf, but diagnosed with ADHD? Who has taken ritalin and then other pharmaceutals since he was little?

I can't believe you're spinning the stupid "give untested pills" line -- yes, I'm sure that the FDA has completely abdicated it's responsibilities regarding human trials and testing over the last 25 years.

No, it really isn't. Hearing loss is not anywhere close to a binary deaf or not, and you show your ignorance by claiming it is.

Indeed.

I'm totally deaf in one ear, but I still have some very tiny residual hearing in one ear (enough that a traditional hearing aid helps).

Meanwhile, there are kids for whom a Cochlear Implant simply won't help -- their ears and such are completely fine; they work great -- but somewhere between the cochlea and the brain, the signals go off the track and get completely lost.

Poor kids.

[SirNitram]

Explain how 'Look how icky it is' is comparable to 'It's really quite unpleasant to be given whatever pill this is without any goddamn testing' or other such treatments. Really, please. I'll wait.

You're trying to argue over disabilities with someone who is not only Deaf, but diagnosed with ADHD? Who has taken ritalin and then other pharmaceutals since he was little?

I can't believe you're spinning the stupid "give untested pills" line -- yes, I'm sure that the FDA has completely abdicated it's responsibilities regarding human trials and testing over the last 25 years.

Please show the FDA tests where autistics were involved and constituted a sufficient part of the testing phase to discern all side effects. Please remember the FDA still does not prevent drugs that can cause all sorts of nasty side effects from still getting out.

The point, which sailed over your head, is not 'untested drugs', it is 'untested on the relevent brain chemistry', to say nothing of 'There's not a damn shred of evidence it works.' So basically, you dodge the question by erecting a strawman. Since it's clear you're just throwing another of your tantrums because you can't stand me, I'm not really feeling compelled to engage you further. You won't discuss logically? Fine. Rant to yourself.

[Hotfoot]

Oh no, Shep is claiming to have ADHD, perhaps the most overdiagnosed malady of the late 90's.

I've been on Ritalin, and fuck, I was on Adderall for nearly a decade. Know what? My life is actually better without the drugs. I can do anecdotal stuff too, wee!

And shit, I've got serious issues too. I've got an Audio Processing disability. Think of it like Aural Dyslexia. I can hear you, but I can't always understand you, because the sounds get jumbled on the way to my brain.

And there's NOTHING for that, outside of asking someone to constantly repeat themselves. There's no drug, there's no implant, no quick fix, I have to get around it, most of the time, by reading lips when I'm having an episode.

Now that we've got our issues on the table, let's talk turkey: Drugs offer a "quick fix" for the vast majority of Autistics and other children with other such disorders. They don't always work to better the CHILD's life, but often make the lives of those around them easier. Meanwhile, the child has to live with sometimes crippling side effects, or worse disorders than what they initially had. Hell, for a time there was a concern that I might become bipolar because of the medications I was taking. The result, of course: PILE ON MORE MEDS.

The resulting episode is one I do not care to repeat. My parents thought they were acting in my best interest, and I went along because I assumed that they knew best. We were both wrong, and I paid the price as a result, and came the closest I've ever come to death.

So fuck off, Shep. Mind altering medications are a much grayer area than simple fucking implants, and if you've been on them for as long as you claim, you should know that. Or maybe that's WHY you're the way you are, you're so drugged up you can't see what's right in front of you.

Tell me, when's the last time you've been off your meds for more than a few days?

[MKSheppard]

Please show the FDA tests where autistics were involved and constituted a sufficient part of the testing phase to discern all side effects. Please remember the FDA still does not prevent drugs that can cause all sorts of nasty side effects from still getting out.

Nice movement of the goalposts from "no testing" to "they didn't test it enough!"

[darthdavid]

Please show the FDA tests where autistics were involved and constituted a sufficient part of the testing phase to discern all side effects. Please remember the FDA still does not prevent drugs that can cause all sorts of nasty side effects from still getting out.

Nice movement of the goalposts from "no testing" to "they didn't test it enough!"

It might as well be no testing when the drugs have not been tested relevantly. When you give a drug that effects brain chemistry to someone who's brain functions differently from the people it was tested on a desirable result can not be assured.

You're an electrician, right? If someone made a fuse box that electrocuted any left-handed electrician that tried to work on it and then said it wasn't their fault and there was nothing to fix because they'd tested it with right handed electricians and there were no problems would you be fine with that?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Implants are less gray than drugs? What do you think the fatal complication rate for psychoactive drugs is versus drill into your fucking skull?

[MKSheppard]

It might as well be no testing when the drugs have not been tested relevantly.

Okay, lets go through the mindset of the people who are developing and marketing the drug:

"Oh hey guys; we've just developed a new drug which we think will work on all sorts of behavorial disorders; lets just test it all on normal people for our sample, not on the people with the disorders we're going to market it for!"

BRILLIANCE!

You're an electrician, right? If someone made a fuse box that electrocuted any left-handed electrician that tried to work on it and then said it wasn't their fault and there was nothing to fix because they'd tested it with right handed electricians and there were no problems would you be fine with that?

Your analogy is so retarded it's making my ears bleed.

Do these things strike some memories in your brain?

"Do not give to pregnant or nursing women. Do not take if you have a heart condition or suffer from epilepsy."

The whole POINT of clinical trials with the FDA is to find out what happens to a varied group of people when they are given the drug so that you know how it interacts with various maladies.

[MKSheppard]

Implants are less gray than drugs? What do you think the fatal complication rate for psychoactive drugs is versus drill into your fucking skull?

Speaking of drilling into your fucking skull, I've had that done twice. First time when I was a kid, it was all very bleeding edge and experimental (I was one of the first people to receive an implant in the US).

Second time, it was a routine surgery since implants had become very routine and worked out. What I remember the most from the second surgery was that for a couple days afterwards, everything tasted like cardboard.

[Superman]

As far as I've learned, medications don't treat an autism spectrum disorder itself. Instead, they're often prescribed to treat a coexisting disorder, or complexes of symptoms. As odd as this sounds, most of the research that has been performed in regards to autism and medication has been performed on children, not adults. I remember learning this in a public health class, and I have references if anyone wants them.

[Hotfoot]

Implants are less gray than drugs? What do you think the fatal complication rate for psychoactive drugs is versus drill into your fucking skull?

Oh, I'm sorry, did I say that surgery had not fucking risks involved? No, I didn't. However, bottom line is that an implant is replacing a bit of organ that, like it or not, you can live without. You fuck up the brain, and that's IT, you're done.

Your brain is who you fucking are. If you can hear or not, or hear well or not, or whatever, that's something ABOUT you. YOU ARE YOUR BRAIN. Anything that messes with that is a much more gray area, yes. There is less chance of it actually working, or of the medication being more effective than years of treatment.

Tell me, asshole, is there a real chance that someone who is deaf without the aid of an implant of being able to hear after years of what amounts to physical therapy? Because that's exactly what can happen in kids with social or mental disorders that aren't on the severe end of the spectrum.

[MKSheppard]

You fuck up the brain, and that's IT, you're done.

And what is in the skull, and resides dangerously close to the Cochlea?

Oh right; the Brain.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Your brain is who you fucking are. If you can hear or not, or hear well or not, or whatever, that's something ABOUT you. YOU ARE YOUR BRAIN. Anything that messes with that is a much more gray area, yes. There is less chance of it actually working, or of the medication being more effective than years of treatment.

Except the rate of permanent brain damage from psychoactive drugs is not 100%, so you're comparing a complete strawman with another (HUR HUR implant equals quick fix quick swap). Does it occur to you there's a significant risk associated with any surgery, mortality and morbidity? That you can get brain damage from bad anesthesia and such too?

Of course not, because you're out to grind your personal axe.

Tell me, asshole, is there a real chance that someone who is deaf without the aid of an implant of being able to hear after years of what amounts to physical therapy? Because that's exactly what can happen in kids with social or mental disorders that aren't on the severe end of the spectrum.

That's a total bullshit comparison, and you fucking know it. The brain is more plastic - in some circumstances - than fucking dead ear nerves, which is why some people get paid millions of dollars for their reasoning skills or amazing reflexes and kinesthesia, and the rest of us don't. You're constructing extreme, unjustified reasoning. If you have real evidence and papers to site instead of lunatic analogies, do that.

[Hotfoot]

You fuck up the brain, and that's IT, you're done.

And what is in the skull, and resides dangerously close to the Cochlea?

Oh right; the Brain.

Again, your idiocy shows. Even assuming something goes horribly wrong when they strap your head down tight and go to work with their precision instruments, the human brain is actually rather elastic, and can continue to function quite well even with parts missing. That's assuming, of course, that something goes wrong mechanically with this exercise.

Drugs, meanwhile, immediately alter who you are on a very real level, even when applied correctly. Most mind-altering drugs are pretty fucking hit-or-miss, even when used properly, and the dosages are adjusted until the behavior is deemed "appropriate".

Medications are useful for extreme cases, where the subject is in danger of not being able to lead a life. Period. For less extreme cases, they show progressively less utility. Problem is, that line isn't drawn. Imagine, for example, that for someone who could get by just fine on a hearing aide, they demanded instead that he have a cochlear implant. That fine too? I mean, it might work, so why not, right? Fuck HIS choice, let's make this as easy as possible. After all, if people see a hearing aide, they might make life difficult for him and his family. This is better for everyone. Sure, it's really minor and he can still hear most things, but that's okay.

That doesn't even begin to approach the blase approach many doctors take in prescribing mind-altering pharmaceutical treatments. Not even fucking close.

People's brains are dulled, muted, their personalities warps, not by accident, but BY DESIGN. This is the fucking gray area I'm talking about you ignorant little shits. People who can function just fine in society are pressured or forced to alter their brain chemistry, not because it's needed, but because it's CONVENIENT FOR OTHERS.

So fuck you and your bullshit that people getting implants to improve their lives is at ALL similar to parents forcing their children to medicate their brains and alter their personalities to make life easier on the parents.

[Hotfoot]

Except the rate of permanent brain damage from psychoactive drugs is not 100%, so you're comparing a complete strawman with another (HUR HUR implant equals quick fix quick swap). Does it occur to you there's a significant risk associated with any surgery, mortality and morbidity? That you can get brain damage from bad anesthesia and such too?

Of course not, because you're out to grind your personal axe.

Oh, you're right, I never acknowledged that fact.

Except where I did:
"Oh, I'm sorry, did I say that surgery had not fucking risks involved? No, I didn't. However, bottom line is that an implant is replacing a bit of organ that, like it or not, you can live without. You fuck up the brain, and that's IT, you're done."

But hey, it's cool to cut that out and pretend I didn't say it, because a fucking strawman makes you seem so much more rational, am I right? I am well aware that any surgery, even elective ones that replace non-essential tissue, have serious risks involved. Meanwhile, you're the one comparing something like being able to hear or not to something as complex as what is required to be capable of interacting and contributing to society. Awesome.

That's a total bullshit comparison, and you fucking know it. The brain is more plastic - in some circumstances - than fucking dead ear nerves, which is why some people get paid millions of dollars for their reasoning skills or amazing reflexes and kinesthesia, and the rest of us don't. You're constructing extreme, unjustified reasoning. If you have real evidence and papers to site instead of lunatic analogies, do that.

You've both struck the point and fucking missed it, you gargantuan wretch of a man. This entire comparison Shep has thrown into this thread is a bullshit comparison, AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE ANGRY.

Do you not understand that there is no real comparison here? Shep came in because he has a fucking vendetta against Nitram and is doing all he can to piss him off. That people agree with him only further proves that people have no idea what the fuck they're talking about with regards to this subject, because THERE IS NO LOGICAL COMPARISON TO BE MADE.

Moreover, you've gone so far off the fucking deep end here that you've blatantly ignored a part of my post, attacked me for not making the point you ignored, and then gotten pissed off for the same reason I'm angry. Get your head on straight, for fuck's sake.

[Norseman]

Actually, he's comparing brains to computers. Mind you, it's hard for me to keep up in that, so.

Just FYI it made perfect sense to me, and it wasn't even hard to follow. Then again I am in computer science.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh, you're right, I never acknowledged that fact.

If you "acknowledge" the fact that blacks are people too, then go on a diatribe about black criminality and low intelligence, are you not a racist because you can point to the beginning. You gave a throwaway reference to the risks, then completely misrepresented the relative risk in your lopsided, absurd comparison.

But hey, it's cool to cut that out and pretend I didn't say it, because a fucking strawman makes you seem so much more rational, am I right? I am well aware that any surgery, even elective ones that replace non-essential tissue, have serious risks involved. Meanwhile, you're the one comparing something like being able to hear or not to something as complex as what is required to be capable of interacting and contributing to society. Awesome.

Actually, dumbfuck, Sheppard make the comparison, you're just flinging shit at everyone around you. I came down on you solely because you were twisting the compared relative risk to absurd levels. You were strawmanning the shit out of him and generally sounding like a dumbass. So I corrected you. I expect the thank you will be forthcoming.

Do you not understand that there is no real comparison here? Shep came in because he has a fucking vendetta against Nitram and is doing all he can to piss him off. That people agree with him only further proves that people have no idea what the fuck they're talking about with regards to this subject, because THERE IS NO LOGICAL COMPARISON TO BE MADE.

Blow me dumbass. I critiqued the fact you were so busy foaming at the mouth you were making indefensibly exaggerated and retarded claims and comparisons. None of this frothing "WHO ARE YOU BACKING IN OUR TRIBAL DISPUTE, TEH MART OR TEH SHEP???" bullshit has anything to do with that.

Moreover, you've gone so far off the fucking deep end here that you've blatantly ignored a part of my post, attacked me for not making the point you ignored, and then gotten pissed off for the same reason I'm angry. Get your head on straight, for fuck's sake.

Wrong, you're an idiot who can't take criticism, and is frothing. Any external observer can see that. And this is why you've taken things completely away the retardedly exaggerated comparisons and misrepresentations you made into some diatribe about me and my motivations.

[SirNitram]

Actually, he's comparing brains to computers. Mind you, it's hard for me to keep up in that, so.

Just FYI it made perfect sense to me, and it wasn't even hard to follow. Then again I am in computer science.

I suspect it's a brilliant analogy for computer scientists, but for the rest of us, it's a big pile of WTF.

[Norseman]

When you talk about curing an autist you are basically talking about changing the fundamental way they think. Changing their personality. Their preferences. In short changing everything that makes them them. A cure would go well beyond, say, changing your sexuality, you'd still be you if you changed to being gay/bi/straight. Not so if you were to "cure" autism.

This is why most autists who speak out are deeply, deeply sceptical of any attempts to cure them. In fact I can't think of a single autist (most High Functioning mind) I've met who actually wants a cure. Not a single one. I can however think of lots of blind and deaf people who want a cure. Obviously there's a pretty big difference here.

[Hotfoot]

Primus, get this through your fucking head: The "compared" risk shouldn't be compared, because there is NO COMPARISON. You are talking about surgery involving tissue replacement to long-term plans of mind-altering drugs.

First you come at me for calling drug plans more of a gray area than implants. Why? Because there is no guarantee they will be more effective than therapy, there is in fact no promise made at all that it will SOLVE the problem, just suppress the symptoms. Moreover, most of the implants we're talking about are entirely elective, quality of life enhancing surgeries, that cannot be replicated or surpassed by equivalent therapy. The people who undergo them can often function quite well in society, especially on a social level.

Fuck, even with the implants, you can get your chances of a successful operation and make a decision based on that, and usually the chances are pretty damn good with many of the surgeries we have today. Medications of the mind? No promises, and few long term studies, if any.

Meanwhile, the drug therapies can completely alter the way a child is raised, not from the "oh look they can appreciate music and sound" way, but from the very core of how they grow and develop. That you can't see that just shows your continued ignorance. You can play the part of the dispassionate external observer, but that's a load of crap. You can backpedal all you want, but frankly, it's clear to me that you're full of shit. I'll bet there's a fair number of third parties who can easily see that too (Hey look, I can appeal to authority too).

So which is it? Do you disagree with my saying that the two subjects are entirely incapable of being compared fairly, or do you agree that they can't be compared fairly? It's a pretty fucking binary decision, and you've made both arguments here, so pick one and stick with it.

[Stark]

When you talk about curing an autist you are basically talking about changing the fundamental way they think. Changing their personality. Their preferences. In short changing everything that makes them them. A cure would go well beyond, say, changing your sexuality, you'd still be you if you changed to being gay/bi/straight. Not so if you were to "cure" autism.

This is why most autists who speak out are deeply, deeply sceptical of any attempts to cure them. In fact I can't think of a single autist (most High Functioning mind) I've met who actually wants a cure. Not a single one. I can however think of lots of blind and deaf people who want a cure. Obviously there's a pretty big difference here.

Sorry, I'd trade my top 20 IQ points for a normal life, and I'd still be smarter than 90% of the population. Fair trade, to me.

I think trying to compare living with a physical disability (where as it's been said, people are still very like one another in thought) to an inherently mental issue which doesn't just change one's life, but how one reacts to it, is flawed. To be quite blunt, most autistic people fear change and construct elaborate rituals and a 'rut culture' to minimise this - so asking them is they want to change their entire lives is MASSIVELY biased. That doesn't make it less valid (assuming they're capable of managing their affairs to make such a distinction) but it's no 'proof' of 'rightness', it's an obvious consequence of their disability.

[Terralthra]

Being Deaf is a pretty binary condition. Being on the extraordinarily wide range of Autism is much more multifaceted, and there is no simple fix for it.

Your analogy fails on the face of it Shep. You're talking about a physical disability vs. a wide range of different states of mind. You might as well compare blindness to ADD.

No, it really isn't. Hearing loss is not anywhere close to a binary deaf or not, and you show your ignorance by claiming it is.

They're not entirely analogous, but the points Shep makes are valid.

Look, you obviously don't get it. The points are NOT valid, because you're dealing with a very different set of conditions. The idea that you can take something like hearing loss or deafness (which is binary in that you can either hear in the normal range or you cannot), which can be MEASURED SCIENTIFICALLY by what you can or cannot hear, autism is nowhere NEAR as easy to pinpoint, identify, or "correct". There is nothing even remotely similar about the two.

Yeah, so if you can hear in part of the normal range, but not another part of it...I guess you just don't think that's possible. Jesus, are you retarded? It is just not that simple.

It is not as simple as playing a list of sounds of varying frequencies and amplitudes and checking off which ones work and which ones don't. It's not as easily fixed as splicing in technology to replace or enhance malfunctioning organic tissue. We are talking about altering the human mind, something that has only ever been successful in the most extreme cases, by people who are assuming that the children DO NOT EXIST AS PEOPLE until the work is done.

Yeah, because Deaf/HH people never undergo speech pathology or audiological therapy to treat their underlying conditions or allow them to function in normal society...oh wait.

With all physical disabilities, it is always assumed that the person themselves are whole on a mental level. A blind, deaf, or mute person is not a blank slate, ready to be created by the would-be sculptor, they are a person limited by the whim of nature.

So why the fuck don't you and Shep and everyone who thinks that a fucking pill can do for the brain what a prosthetic leg or cochlear implant can do for the body and go sit in a fucking corner while the people who know what the fuck they are talking about discuss this subject. The differences between the rest of the body and the BRAIN are quite simply massive. We can replace virtually any body part to varying degrees of utility and success, we cannot do that with the human brain. The best we can do is shove in some chemicals and hope something happens.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? We treat numerous things in the brain as push-button, take-this-pill solutions all the time. I don't see you ranting about aspirin for headaches or caffeine as a mild mental stimulant being offensive. Scientists don't fully understand autism, and because of that, treatment regimens are limited. A fucking pill could very well easily do for autism what a cochlear implant does for the brain: make it possible, with lots of concomitant therapy and practice, for the person with a disability to function in society. We don't have that pill right now, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to make one.

[SirNitram]

Terralithra, you have hit upon the central problem. We do not have the 'Turn autism off' pill yet. We instead have a bunch of people prescribing pills designed to treat wholly seperate problems with the brain and often proclaiming they're working to cure the problem, as opposed to contributing to the work to find the causes, mechanisms, and make a real pill.

There's the strawman that when I said 'untested', I meant 'No testing at all', but of course I expected everyone to get 'Untested for curing Autism' and to a degree 'Untested in autistics'.

This is the issue. The 'This pill will totally solve everything' panacea idea of how to deal with problems, combined with very little regard for whether the pill is even suitable. I'm not even sure why anti-depressants were considered(People with autism diagnosed with depression.. Which I'm willing to wager is 'Alot of them' is another story, but one where caution should be taken. But always take caution with mind-altering drugs, just like always take caution with any surgery.).