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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)


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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-10 03:58pm
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I think I'd agree with that. Yahweh is probably happy to let either the humans, or Hell fight to a conclusion and then destroy the victor who he probably believes will have been fatally weakened.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-10 04:38pm
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I imagine Heaven will hit humanity as hard as it can once Satan is out of the picture. Once their enemy is dead, they'll probably think this is the opportune time to hit the Human forces in Hell and on Earth, whichever they can hit.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-10 05:17pm
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JN1 wrote:

Not sure the ship could take the weight of an extra Mark 8 mount to be honest. I think her value would be in acting as an additional flag ship. Adding VLS Sea Wolf would probably be a lot of hassle and take the same amount of time it would take to build one of the new Future Surface Combatant designs instead (http://navy-matters.beedall.com/fsc.htm). If the RN is to reactivate Bristol they'd probably want to do it as quickly as possible.


Good point. Do you think two box launchers for ESSM would make more sense, or would the supply issues 'nix that? Regardless a heavy armament of 30mm autocannons and possibly some 40mm is called for and her primary role is certainly command.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-10 06:03pm
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The Lightweight Sea Wolf system might be a possibility. It used a four round canister and lightweight directors, since the RN already uses Sea Wolf it would probably be better, though also arming ships with RAM is a possibility in addition to Phalanx and Goalkeeper.
I agree wrt to the light cannons.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-10 07:02pm
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Mr. Yahweh might not think too much of humanity, but some of his angels are bound to be keeping tabs somehow on the fighting in Hell, and possibly learning from it best as they can from their limited understanding.



The Christian fundies don't like Muslim Anti Zionism and the Arab nationalists resent the Israeli presence in the Occupied Territories because no one likes to see someone else beat the living shyte out of one's red headed step sibling.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-10 08:53pm
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Pelranius wrote:
Mr. Yahweh might not think too much of humanity, but some of his angels are bound to be keeping tabs somehow on the fighting in Hell, and possibly learning from it best as they can from their limited understanding.

Michael might - he seems to be entertaining some reservations about Yahweh's behavior. Note the comparison he made in his private thoughts from Yahweh's screaming rant to those of Satan's rants. Interesting.

If humanity can get at least one major angelic army into the field and let them have it with a WMD, either chemical or nuclear... *shrugs* Hell appears to be taking more casualties from the humans than they ever did in the Heaven/Hell conflict. They're all still fighting the way we used to, with the intent of conserving resources for after the battle. Total war seems to be something they have a hard time accepting.

Or perhaps it's the concept of Mutual Assured Destruction they are having a hard time comprehending. It does seem that there's a slight attitude of "One side surrenders, even if it means execution, rather than fight on and condemn BOTH sides to utter destruction." The thought that someone might continue to fight on just to spoil the victory of the winning side out of spite would appear to be either alien to their way of thinking, or just something that's anathema to the culture that's grown up since the Rebellion in Heaven.

Sort of a "I don't want to win, if winning means a victory of burnt-out rubble and nothing to rule over..." attitude.

"To the victor go the spoils."

Would that make a victory where everything's been burn to ash a meaningless and unwanted victory to both Satan and Yahweh? That the Rebellion in Heaven actually ended (no matter what either side claims) in an unofficial 'negotiated' settlement, with both sides claiming that they won and the other side lost so as to salve their wounded pride? And both sides planning on a rematch, someday?

Hmm. Sounds to me a little bit like the Greek city-states, or perhaps Renaissance Italy, and the fictional setting of Battletech which was modeled after it. No one ever wins or loses, the war just goes on, skirmish after skirmish, unending...

Ed.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-10 09:24pm
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If Yahweh's angelic generals are watching, then the interesting thing to watch for is their capacity to adjust their tactics, something the armies of hell have completely failed at. Thye've fought with tactics totally suited to the skills of humanity's professional armies, namely set lines, large formations, combined arms, etc. It does sound like they may be a little smarter, even if their boss is the same type of ranting egoist.

Humanity would be in a lot more trouble if Yahweh's forces took a page from Insurgency 101. Imagine them opening their version of a hellmouth in a highly populated and clogged area such as Manhattan or Rio. All the adavantages we had against Satan's morons: clear lines, open killing fields, easy lines of communication and easy air support would be taken off the table. If killer angels (for lack of a better term) start pouring out in all directions in a congested area with one mission to kill humans, things get decidely harder. Either you write the area off and carpet bomb/nuke it or you pour infantry into a Stalingrad/Bastogne/Hue City scenario.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 12:21am
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Glennfiddich12 wrote:
If killer angels (for lack of a better term) start pouring out in all directions in a congested area with one mission to kill humans, things get decidely harder. Either you write the area off and carpet bomb/nuke it or you pour infantry into a Stalingrad/Bastogne/Hue City scenario.

Or you simply get a large mother-loving nuke through the portal. Something along the size of the Tsar Bomba.

Wouldn't be easy.

WOULD be interesting.

And of course, you're assuming that the Big Guy won't try to micromanage his angelic forces.

"What do you MEAN they're wearing cammo and using miracles?! I won't have it! All of my minions are to IMMEDIATELY return to white robes and flaming swords! If I catch anyone using ANYTHING other than a melee weapon, I shall Damn them for all Eternity!"

Ed.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 12:29am
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"JN1 wrote:


Not sure the ship could take the weight of an extra Mark 8 mount to be honest. I think her value would be in acting as an additional flag ship. Adding VLS Sea Wolf would probably be a lot of hassle and take the same amount of time it would take to build one of the new Future Surface Combatant designs instead (http://navy-matters.beedall.com/fsc.htm). If the RN is to reactivate Bristol they'd probably want to do it as quickly as possible.


Good point. Do you think two box launchers for ESSM would make more sense, or would the supply issues 'nix that? Regardless a heavy armament of 30mm autocannons and possibly some 40mm is called for and her primary role is certainly command."


The RAN is putting VLS ESSM into OHP frigates. Over cost and beyond schedule of course but much has been learnt that could be applied to new builds or re-builds. The surviving four OHPs now have a Mk13 launcher, an ESSM VLS, an Oto-Melara 76 mm gun, a Phalanx and usually in Gulf service 2 x 25 mm unstabilised mounts. Plus up to two helos. They should be useful in the waters of hell.

"Pelranius wrote:
Mr. Yahweh might not think too much of humanity, but some of his angels are bound to be keeping tabs somehow on the fighting in Hell, and possibly learning from it best as they can from their limited understanding.

Michael might - he seems to be entertaining some reservations about Yahweh's behavior. Note the comparison he made in his private thoughts from Yahweh's screaming rant to those of Satan's rants. Interesting. "


Memnon and Apoillon (?) also had some interesting thoughts in this regard. "The chorus must not cease"!! etc. Does Jahweh go postal when the level of obvious sycophancy decreases? There may be some interesting psyops opportunities here.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 02:22am
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Darth Wong wrote:
Ahhh, looks like our little Gorgon spy is about to get a rude awakening.


Couldn't happen to a nicer gal...

:twisted:

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 03:20am
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fb111a wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Ahhh, looks like our little Gorgon spy is about to get a rude awakening.


Couldn't happen to a nicer gal...

:twisted:


Wonder if cerebral implants are possible, courtesy of "covert research"? :twisted:



The Christian fundies don't like Muslim Anti Zionism and the Arab nationalists resent the Israeli presence in the Occupied Territories because no one likes to see someone else beat the living shyte out of one's red headed step sibling.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 12:16pm
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The RAN is putting VLS ESSM into OHP frigates. Over cost and beyond schedule of course but much has been learnt that could be applied to new builds or re-builds.

I've recently heard that the upgrade costs about as much as 1/3rd to a half of the price of a replacement for the FFGs.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 12:34pm
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Well, considering the costs of new vessels, it seems almost worth it to give it the necessary flexibility. I mean, when an LCS costs around $700 million each (I know they are first of class but cost is cost), what else are you going to do? And of course, the story is really getting interesting....



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 03:52pm
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EdBecerra wrote:
Glennfiddich12 wrote:
If killer angels (for lack of a better term) start pouring out in all directions in a congested area with one mission to kill humans, things get decidely harder. Either you write the area off and carpet bomb/nuke it or you pour infantry into a Stalingrad/Bastogne/Hue City scenario.

Or you simply get a large mother-loving nuke through the portal. Something along the size of the Tsar Bomba.

Wouldn't be easy.

WOULD be interesting.


Except that doing so would doubly screw everyone on both sides of said portal, since it would 1) widen it considerably, and 2) dump extra amounts of energy to the tune of whatever arbitrary figure the celestial mechanics work by into the surrounding areas.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 05:33pm
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In a previous post, I enquired about what was going to be done with USS Cassin Young. Another vessel I'd like to know about is USS Joseph P. Kennedy, berthed as a museum ship at Fall River, Massachusetts next to USS Massachusetts.
There is also the Biddensee, an East German gunboat (also berthed at Fall River)

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 07:35pm
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Crayz9000 wrote:
Except that doing so would doubly screw everyone on both sides of said portal, since it would 1) widen it considerably, and 2) dump extra amounts of energy to the tune of whatever arbitrary figure the celestial mechanics work by into the surrounding areas.

Yeah. On BOTH sides.

I suspect we've got the population to spare, and Heaven doesn't. Otherwise, why are Heaven and Hell playing games of Brinksmanship instead of all-out war?

Hmm ... now I wonder if dead humans can survive in Heaven without an invite. If they CAN, then bingo, there's the invading army, ready made. All that's required are a f-huge supply of modern weapons, and some time to train them.

I mean, there have to be billions of humans in Hell by now, right? And literally millions who were lost in the trench warfare of World War I. Modern weapons might be a little unfamiliar to them, but they're close enough to the present to be able to handle them with a minimal amount of training. (Quick note, no accuracy - from looking at the page at First World War.com with the figures for the war dead, it would appear to be about 8 million soldiers dead among the major powers, at least. That's 8 million potential recruits.)

Not that it would be easy. Or simple. Because I'll admit right up front that it won't. But neither is it a case of "we have to lay down and die, 'cuz we can't win against the Man."

Just a thought or two about the numbers.

I -- Holy $hit, I just realized something. Manfred von Richthofen's probably down there! :shock: We have GOT to find him and get him into the air again! :D

Ed.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 07:45pm
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Going from a Fokker triplane to a jet is kind of a huge difference, though...



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 07:55pm
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-11 11:38pm
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I'm thinking if heaven does do go the guerilla route, then so what? The "collateral" damage will just go to hell. Asides from the propaganda hit, all they'd accomplish would be angering the humans even further.

I also wonder how the discovery of an afterlife will change the public's perception and threshold for casualties.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-12 12:53am
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Zim wrote:
I'm thinking if heaven does do go the guerilla route, then so what? The "collateral" damage will just go to hell. Asides from the propaganda hit, all they'd accomplish would be angering the humans even further.

I also wonder how the discovery of an afterlife will change the public's perception and threshold for casualties.

We'll have to wait and see, but I expect that a number of things will spin off. One would be "death briefings" at hospitals, particularly veterans-only hospitals. What to expect when - not if - you die, how to ascertain your location when you arrive in Hell, where friendly, human-controlled areas are in relation to your current position and how to make your way back to them... Survive, Escape, Evade, Resist as re-written for Hell.

Expect recruiting offices to be going up in all human-controlled areas soon.

Hmm... I wonder.

Years ago, there was a book about efficient design. Lost the title, unfortunately. One of the things it went into detail about were small, cheap, expendable one-channel radios that were powered by the heat of a single candle, durable enough to be air-dropped, cheap enough to build by the hundreds of millions, designed to be built inside of a common tin-can.

Radio Free Hell, anyone?

And what about the old FP-45 Liberator pistol?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator

If that makes a comeback, the demons are going to seriously regret ever angering us. A cheap, disposable pistol that, by itself, can't drop a demon. But it can injure one, maybe kill it if you get a head shot. And it's better than no weapon at all.

Stamp out a few million, air drop them wherever there's a going human resistance...

Heh.

Come to think of it, most of the "nasty surprise" inventions that came about during the darkest days of WW2 would apply. Even the Nazis, bastards that they were, had good ideas about cheap & cheerful, easy-to-produce weapons intended to make occupation duty a misery.

The EMP-44 comes to mind, though that might be a bit much, demons with brains could turn captured ones against humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMP_44

Knives, though... lots and lots of knives. Cheap but durable machetes, short swords, smatchets...

Lieutenant-Colonel William Fairbairn, the man who literally stamped his name on the modern fighting knife, is probably down there in Hell as well. I suspect he'd find it vastly amusing to be supplied with copies of the knife he made famous.

Ed.

PS: Behold the Power of Google. Found it. "Design for the Real World" written by Victor Papanek, a simple radio built around a tin can and a candle. He passed away in 1999 (I wasn't aware of that. Pity, he was a good man.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Papanek



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-12 04:42pm
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The obviously most preferable gun for making in huge quantities to arm people in hell would be a simple blackpowder musket which throws a slug of about .85 caliber with engineering tolerances done to modern mass-production quality so it can take an enormous powder charge. That WOULD kill a demon at close range.


Incidentally, Stuart, I e-mailed the Buffalo naval and military park about the condition of the engine rooms and guns on The Sullivans and Little Rock. I'm going to follow up on all the other destroyers as well that look promising and see if any of them have machinery that is in repairable condition. I doubt we're going to get more than 2 - 3 ships out of this, of course, but I enjoy being pedantic.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-12 08:05pm
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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
The obviously most preferable gun for making in huge quantities to arm people in hell would be a simple blackpowder musket which throws a slug of about .85 caliber with engineering tolerances done to modern mass-production quality so it can take an enormous powder charge. That WOULD kill a demon at close range.

Flip side, it might be something the demons could copy, if given enough time. We've already seen them create a crude shotgun.

Hmmm...

Still a few battleships around as museums, and those shells could travel a LONG way. The original definition of "coastal waters" was by how far one of those big guns could toss a shell.

According to Wikipedia...

Quote:
Although the Navy firmly believes in the capabilities of the DD(X) destroyer program, members of the United States Congress remain skeptical about the efficiency of the new destroyers when compared to the battleships.[88] Partially as a consequence the US House of Representatives have asked that the battleships be kept in a state of readiness should they ever be needed again.[100] Congress has asked that the following measures be implemented to ensure that, if need be, Iowa and Wisconsin can be returned to active duty:

1. Iowa and Wisconsin must not be altered in any way that would impair their military utility;
2. The battleships must be preserved in their present condition through the continued use of cathodic protection, dehumidification systems, and any other preservation methods as needed;
3. Spare parts and unique equipment such as the 16-inch (410 mm) gun barrels and projectiles be preserved in adequate numbers to support Iowa and Wisconsin, if reactivated;
4. The Navy must prepare plans for the rapid reactivation of Iowa and Wisconsin should they be returned to the Navy in the event of a national emergency.[100]

These four conditions closely mirror the original three conditions that the Nation Defense Authorization Act of 1996 laid out for the maintenance of Iowa and Wisconsin while they were in the Mothball Fleet.[58][101]


Again, hmmm....

Wonder when that "at-sea" portal's going to open up?

:twisted:

Ed.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-12 09:29pm
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Battleships were ruled out, they've just been run to hard, the guns are going to take some restoring work, they need huge crews in exchange for marginal capabilities, und so weiter. Even Little Rock is a marginal case, but the machinery is the real question--if it's in excellent condition, well, we sure do need command ships.

We're being extremely selective about the museum ships--they basically have to be both in pristine condition and, of course, genuinely useful, to be reactivated. And the battleships are, from a cost standpoint, not genuinely useful.



The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-12 10:09pm
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EdBecerra wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
The obviously most preferable gun for making in huge quantities to arm people in hell would be a simple blackpowder musket which throws a slug of about .85 caliber with engineering tolerances done to modern mass-production quality so it can take an enormous powder charge. That WOULD kill a demon at close range.

Flip side, it might be something the demons could copy, if given enough time. We've already seen them create a crude shotgun.

Rifles have greater range than shotguns, so a human riflemen (and women) unit has the option of blasting away at demon shotgunners from ranges at which the demons cannot retaliate. The need for engineering tolerances of 19+ century standards may limit availability (I'm sure every gun manufacturer on Earth is now at full capacity), but it also means the demons will have HUGE difficulties reverse-engineering a rifle.

I'm curious: is it possible to have manufacturers of pipes and other plumbing fixtures, make barrels for the simple muskets the Duchess of Zeon mentioned? Or are those machines unable to work with steel strong enough to NOT burst when the gunpowder ignites?



Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2008-08-12 10:27pm
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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Battleships were ruled out, they've just been run to hard, the guns are going to take some restoring work, they need huge crews in exchange for marginal capabilities, und so weiter. Even Little Rock is a marginal case, but the machinery is the real question--if it's in excellent condition, well, we sure do need command ships.

We're being extremely selective about the museum ships--they basically have to be both in pristine condition and, of course, genuinely useful, to be reactivated. And the battleships are, from a cost standpoint, not genuinely useful.

It's a pity that the story plot matters - it would be so much more fun to simply carpet bomb Hell back to... hmm. Where would you send Hell to? Recursive: See recursive.

Though I do differ in my opinion as to a battleship's usefulness, particularly if you use RAP shells in the main guns. I've seen studies that suggest those old guns could have a range in excess of 60 miles with the proper shells.

Damn shame Gerald Bull got himself dead working for the wrong side - hey, wait!

He's down there too. Well, damn. Someone else for the "We gotta find him and put him back to work" list.

Anyway, I know the story would be the lesser for it, but the temptation to just say "Aww, f*ck it" and simply start using nukes and mustard gas en masse is very tempting... There's nothing quite so satisfying as to go Mongolian on your enemies, gloating in their helplessness.

Ed.



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