Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-23 10:06pm

Edward Yee wrote:I actually thought of the Monster's Inc. bit before Mike's... yeah. Although I can't see how Yahweh's realm wouldn't be able to be powered by the same.
It's powered by a chorus of praise, which already proves that more than one human condition will produce the energy they need.
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Post by gtg947h » 2008-04-23 10:16pm

Yahweh seems to be a bit egotistical... even if sex worked, I think he might be a little more inclined to go with the "everyone worshiping me" thing.

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Post by Academia Nut » 2008-04-23 10:31pm

I almost wonder if the energy produced is generated by strong emotion or something like that, explaining why Yawheh is so picky with who he lets in. He wants only the most fanatical worshippers so that they will produce a large amount of energy for thousands of years with all of it directed at him, while the demons torturing people seem to produce a couple of decades worth of torment before apathy and acceptance set in. I do wonder how exactly they collect the energy, and what other sources could be used. Imagine if turning the after life into a 5 star resort resulted in massive energy gains. Or if we could just hook up a couple of reactors to create an artificial source.
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Post by tim31 » 2008-04-24 10:34am

Woah, everyone... We're starting to wander into Neon Genesis Evangelion territory now. "I can generate an energy barrier with my goodwill!"
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Post by Junghalli » 2008-04-24 03:13pm

I see it as a kind of vampirism myself. The celestial drains soul energy from the human. Pain and worship are just different ways in which the celestial can somehow "tap" the person.

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Post by tim31 » 2008-04-24 10:49pm

Yeah, well it's going to be a dark fucking day when Major Stevenson comes across the fields of children who are kept like livestock to be eaten, as Ori says, like delicacies.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-24 10:54pm

tim31 wrote:Yeah, well it's going to be a dark fucking day when Major Stevenson comes across the fields of children who are kept like livestock to be eaten, as Ori says, like delicacies.
Oh, somebody is going to pay, that's for sure. The demon population of Hell will probably be a lot lower after this war than it was before. But I have trouble seeing us committing genocide and wiping them out, and there's something to be said for limiting the pace of change in order to avoid chaos, as distasteful as that may be.
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Post by Darmalus » 2008-04-24 11:00pm

tim31 wrote:Yeah, well it's going to be a dark fucking day when Major Stevenson comes across the fields of children who are kept like livestock to be eaten, as Ori says, like delicacies.
It's mentioned somewhere in this enormous thread, but it takes time to build up the needed energy to "go up a level" into the afterlife. It could be that nobody under the age of, for example, 18 has the energy needed to make it, and just go "poof" when they die. It would also explain why suicide was a sin. I'm under the impression teenagers are the most likely to do that, and if they die too early, neither Heaven nor Hell gets a soul.

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Post by JBG » 2008-04-25 12:32am

"Oh, somebody is going to pay, that's for sure. The demon population of Hell will probably be a lot lower after this war than it was before. But I have trouble seeing us committing genocide and wiping them out, and there's something to be said for limiting the pace of change in order to avoid chaos, as distasteful as that may be."

Darth Wong, given the attitude of demons visa-vi humans for millenia ect, I don't see it as unlikely that humans will exterminate, except for "zoo" type installations, the demons. We have done it before and PC considerations just don't cut it the same anymore in this fic.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-25 12:34am

JBG wrote:Darth Wong, given the attitude of demons visa-vi humans for millenia ect, I don't see it as unlikely that humans will exterminate, except for "zoo" type installations, the demons. We have done it before and PC considerations just don't cut it the same anymore in this fic.
Including kidlings and collaborators? What if some fairly large groups come over to the human side? Would the humans turn on them afterwards and exterminate them?

Of course, this dilemma could be solved by simply not having any demon groups of significant size join the humans.
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Post by tim31 » 2008-04-25 01:20am

I just wonder how public the dealings will be; will they bother with the War Crimes Tribunal or simply field sanction demons without involving public opinion.

EDIT: I wrote the above line almost in the mindset that this was really happening. Crazy!
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Post by bilateralrope » 2008-04-25 06:31am

I wonder how the people who laid down and died upon hearing the message will react when the human forces find them.

And considering that these people are fundies, how they will react if they find out that the humans are planning to storm heaven as soon as they figure out how.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-25 08:53am

bilateralrope wrote:I wonder how the people who laid down and died upon hearing the message will react when the human forces find them.

And considering that these people are fundies, how they will react if they find out that the humans are planning to storm heaven as soon as they figure out how.
That's a good question. Honestly, there are going to be large groups of people in Heaven and Hell that you don't want to liberate, at least not yet. And then there's all the former murderers and other assorted garbage.

And what happens if the humans get organized enough to subdivide Hell into territories based on what the humans did in life? Would the Nazis reform under Hitler? How would the Jews feel about that? I suppose the actual liberation of the 90 billion humans in Hell is something that can be pushed off until after the end of the story, thus forestalling those headaches. It does raise a lot of interesting questions, though.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Post by Surlethe » 2008-04-25 09:07am

Darth Wong wrote:And what happens if the humans get organized enough to subdivide Hell into territories based on what the humans did in life? Would the Nazis reform under Hitler? How would the Jews feel about that? I suppose the actual liberation of the 90 billion humans in Hell is something that can be pushed off until after the end of the story, thus forestalling those headaches. It does raise a lot of interesting questions, though.
That sounds like good sequel material. I hear through the grapevine that something along those lines might be in the works ... .
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Post by Eulogy » 2008-04-25 02:34pm

Darmalus wrote:It's mentioned somewhere in this enormous thread, but it takes time to build up the needed energy to "go up a level" into the afterlife. It could be that nobody under the age of, for example, 18 has the energy needed to make it, and just go "poof" when they die. It would also explain why suicide was a sin. I'm under the impression teenagers are the most likely to do that, and if they die too early, neither Heaven nor Hell gets a soul.
Or they could end up going to a lower dimension. All souls that don't have the energy to go to a higher dimension upon death would probably end up in the cosmic equvalent of a landfill. This would include the souls of animals and plants as well as children.

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Post by Fyrwulf » 2008-04-25 07:51pm

Stuart, first I'd like to say great work as always. I've been reading this since you posted the link on the TBOverse boards and I've thoroughly enjoyed it thus far.

A couple of things are of interest to me and were discussed before I had an account here, so I'm going to take this time to beat the proverbial dead horse(s).

The use of the -Lan honorific by Appoloin when referring to higher-ranking angels is an interesting insight into the culture of Heaven, but I have to wonder just what the honorific means. I'm sure it's not similar to -San or -Kun/-Chan, since those are both extremely familiar when dealing with superiors. So, I suppose my question is this: is the honorific more like -Sama/-Dono or is it more like -Hime to denote royalty (or whatever Heaven's equivalent is.)

Now, to bring the Great Caliber Debate back up, I noticed that a common agreement was that if it can't bring down large game (like what you'd find in Alaska or Africa) it can't kill a Baldric. I also noticed that people seem to be of the impression that no handgun short of those revolvers with insane loadings fit the former category. I don't recall even mentioning this, but 10mm Auto in a proper loading might give lie to the latter assumption. Now, by proper loading I mean similar to those originally specified by Norma, which would propel a 185gr projectile out the barrel at a little over 1200 fps of a Glock 20. Even the far more compact Glock 29 should see over 1100 fps at the barrel. Now, those types of loadings can and have brought down Alaskan big game (there are several threads on the 10 Ring @ GlockTalk of such hunting adventures with pics.) While I know the FBI briefly adopted a slightly more tame version of the 10mm Auto loading and still complained about it, I believe that with proper training police officers can adjust to it. Also, one could consider the MP-5/10 as a patrol carbine since it would ease logistics for police departments that adopted 10mm Glocks or 1911s (best bet for the latter would be converted P14-40s.)

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-25 10:10pm

Wouldn't one prefer something with a longer effective range than a handgun, since baldricks are so dangerous when they get up close to you? If they get close enough, you can mortally wound them and they'll still disembowel you before they expire.
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Post by JBG » 2008-04-25 10:59pm

"Including kidlings and collaborators? What if some fairly large groups come over to the human side? Would the humans turn on them afterwards and exterminate them?

Of course, this dilemma could be solved by simply not having any demon groups of significant size join the humans."


I'm not advocating extermination per se, Darth Wong. But consider what lead to Halsey's - "kill japs, kill more japs". The demons are far worse, a major factor of their existance is human suffering. They've been at it in a most serious fashion for millenia. Humans owe them nothing. Whether humans exterminate demons or not is a matter of human conscience.

A thought just occurred to me - if Humans liberate Hell and prevent the demons harnessing any more of the human suffering sourced energy to ascend to a higher plain, what are surviving and knowledgeable demons to do? Man's aims are inimical to theirs in that respect.

"That's a good question. Honestly, there are going to be large groups of people in Heaven and Hell that you don't want to liberate, at least not yet. And then there's all the former murderers and other assorted garbage."

And there are so many of them.

Is someone working on how to discern where the newer dead go etc, so as to liberate from suffering sufficient recently deceased professional military personnel?

"Wouldn't one prefer something with a longer effective range than a handgun, since baldricks are so dangerous when they get up close to you? If they get close enough, you can mortally wound them and they'll still disembowel you before they expire."

I'm with Darth, By all means improve hand weapons but really all you're doing is improving your chances of taking the bastard with you. Ranged fire is imperative.

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Post by Junghalli » 2008-04-25 11:11pm

JBG wrote:A thought just occurred to me - if Humans liberate Hell and prevent the demons harnessing any more of the human suffering sourced energy to ascend to a higher plain, what are surviving and knowledgeable demons to do? Man's aims are inimical to theirs in that respect.
We could always give them our worst murderers and other heinous criminals. Of course, I could only really see us doing that if they manage to stalemate us to the point of us being forced to accept some sort of negotiated peace, which I get the feeling isn't what's going to happen.

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Post by Sidewinder » 2008-04-26 01:01am

Darth Wong wrote:Meh. Sidewinder probably advanced the exact same plan for Iraq.
Actually, in 2002, I thought the plans to invade Iraq was being rushed, and that we should just keep Saddam bottled up for a while. Failing that, just have the Air Force bomb Iraq into a parking lot so the Army is free to deal with North Korea.
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Post by Sea Skimmer » 2008-04-26 03:56am

Fyrwulf wrote: Now, to bring the Great Caliber Debate back up, I noticed that a common agreement was that if it can't bring down large game (like what you'd find in Alaska or Africa) it can't kill a Baldric. I also noticed that people seem to be of the impression that no handgun short of those revolvers with insane loadings fit the former category. I don't recall even mentioning this, but 10mm Auto in a proper loading might give lie to the latter assumption.
I think not, especially not at a useful battle range against a target with armor of any sort, otherwise why does everyone in real life use assault rifles to kill mere humans rather then just 9mm SMGs? 9mm kills humans easily after all.
Now, by proper loading I mean similar to those originally specified by Norma, which would propel a 185gr projectile out the barrel at a little over 1200 fps of a Glock 20. Even the far more compact Glock 29 should see over 1100 fps at the barrel.
Even at 1100fps you’d have half the muzzle energy of a civilian loaded .223 round at 100 yards, and we already know thirty point blank rounds of military grade 5.56mm won’t immediately incapacitate a Bladrick.

Now, those types of loadings can and have brought down Alaskan big game (there are several threads on the 10 Ring @ GlockTalk of such hunting adventures with pics.)
That isn’t very relevant. Merely being able to kill an animal is not sufficient, when you go hunting most animals it’s no big deal if you shoot the thing and it then runs 300 yards or so before collapsing. I don’t know of anything in Alaska except a bear that’s a serious threat to a hunter, and I highly doubt anyone went bear hunting with a 10mm handgun. People in this thread talked about killing African big game for a very specific reason, most big game in Africa tries to KILL YOU before it dies, so you can’t have it running very far after you shoot it.

It’s the same deal with a Bladrick, you don’t just have to kill it, you have to reliably cause instant incapacitation of the thing when you hit it, knocking it off its feet the moment you do so, so it can’t charge up and rip your body in half before it bleeds out and dies. This is also a pretty big issue with handguns for self defense in real life, you can kill a person no problem with a .22cal handgun with 40 joules at the muzzle, but if you want actual stopping power to save you life at close quarters you’ll pack something with fifteen times the firepower like 10mm auto.
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Post by Fyrwulf » 2008-04-26 08:00am

Darth Wong wrote:Wouldn't one prefer something with a longer effective range than a handgun, since baldricks are so dangerous when they get up close to you? If they get close enough, you can mortally wound them and they'll still disembowel you before they expire.
10mm is still supersonic out to a hundred yards, even is the common commercial loads, never mind loadings like those from DoubleTap. Plus, most 10mm firearms are fairly accurate if the shooter knows what he's dealing with in the round, not that it's all that hard to actually hit a Baldric. Now, I'm not suggesting 10mm is some wonder uberround, in fact I concede that one shot simply isn't going to do it. Thus the suggestion to go with modified Para Ordnance P14-40 pistols with their 14 round mags and MP-5/10 submarchine guns from H&K for long-range kick. However, the fact remains that of any cartridge with any kind of commercial success and excluding those rounds that are so powerful they can only be loaded into revolvers and single-shot target pistols, only the .50AE has more energy at the muzzle and at 100 yards.

Anyway, I'm talking about this from the perspective of police officers dealing with a random Baldric attack, like the one on the mall where Bundy bit it. Common patrol officers will almost invariably be first responders and having a half dozen take on a single demon if they're armed with MP-5/10 SMGs is actually not that dangerous a proposition unless the cops royally screw up. Although, now that I think about it, arming MPs not near a front similarly wouldn't be a bad idea. I know that in the US Army they only carry around M9s while on base and 9mm is barely adequate against humans, never mind Baldrics.

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Post by Fyrwulf » 2008-04-26 08:27am

Sea Skimmer wrote:I think not, especially not at a useful battle range against a target with armor of any sort, otherwise why does everyone in real life use assault rifles to kill mere humans rather then just 9mm SMGs? 9mm kills humans easily after all.
There are several reasons for it, actually. The primary reason is that the combination of range, rate of fire, and light weight make assault rifles ideal for engaging fellow soldiers. Plus, there's the body armour question as well. As for 9mm easily killing humans, not so much. The problem with 9mm is that unless you're talking hot wildcat loads, the rounds are light weight and slow, so if a bullet misses a vital area it lacks the energy to drop somebody. I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase, "If it doesn't begin with a .4, don't bother."
Even at 1100fps you’d have half the muzzle energy of a civilian loaded .223 round at 100 yards, and we already know thirty point blank rounds of military grade 5.56mm won’t immediately incapacitate a Baldric.
The 1100 fps was for the concealed carry Glock 29, which IIRC only has a four inch barrel. If you go with my suggestion in the P14-40, you get the 1200+ figure. As for 5.56 not being immediately effective, there are probably several reasons for that with none of them to do with muzzle energy. A properly placed shot against a Baldric with a round that can penetrate their hide will kill a Baldric. The problem, of course, is properly placing the shot in the first place, since nobody except for a couple scientists really understand their physiology and the problem is compounded by their sheer size. I know somebody has made note of the fact that even a .50 BMG isn't a one-shot one-kill round against Baldrics.
That isn’t very relevant. Merely being able to kill an animal is not sufficient, when you go hunting most animals it’s no big deal if you shoot the thing and it then runs 300 yards or so before collapsing. I don’t know of anything in Alaska except a bear that’s a serious threat to a hunter, and I highly doubt anyone went bear hunting with a 10mm handgun. People in this thread talked about killing African big game for a very specific reason, most big game in Africa tries to KILL YOU before it dies, so you can’t have it running very far after you shoot it.
Alaskan big game on the whole is as dangerous as the African variety. If they see you, they'll try to kill you, especially if you startle them by shooting at them. Bull moose are notorious for this, to the point where hunting them is as dangerous (if not moreso) as hunting Grizzly. Speaking of, I know of at least one guy on the 10 Ring that takes his Glock 20 every year up to Alaska to hunt Grizzly and IIRC they don't seem to go very far when he shoots them (although if I'm thinking of the right guy he did have a close call once with a Grizzly charging him.)
It’s the same deal with a Baldric, you don’t just have to kill it, you have to reliably cause instant incapacitation of the thing when you hit it, knocking it off its feet the moment you do so, so it can’t charge up and rip your body in half before it bleeds out and dies. This is also a pretty big issue with handguns for self defense in real life, you can kill a person no problem with a .22cal handgun with 40 joules at the muzzle, but if you want actual stopping power to save you life at close quarters you’ll pack something with fifteen times the firepower like 10mm auto.
I agree, although as I see it the problem with this is that, as it relates to Baldrics, the only weapons capable of doing this are mounted on armoured vehicles. If that consideration if thrown out the window where human-carried weapons are concerned, there should only be three considerations: enough energy to penetrate at least 12" of Baldric flesh, rate of fire, and magazine capacity.

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Post by Sidewinder » 2008-04-26 01:41pm

Fyrwulf wrote:Speaking of, I know of at least one guy on the 10 Ring that takes his Glock 20 every year up to Alaska to hunt Grizzly and IIRC they don't seem to go very far when he shoots them (although if I'm thinking of the right guy he did have a close call once with a Grizzly charging him.)
I'm fairly certain the pistol was carried as a BACKUP weapon to something more useful at longer ranges, i.e., a rifle. Note that most pistols have a maximum effective range of 25 METERS, and most people have great difficulty using a pistol to score hits within SEVEN! (See here.)
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Post by KlavoHunter » 2008-04-26 06:30pm

Fyrwulf wrote:Anyway, I'm talking about this from the perspective of police officers dealing with a random Baldric attack, like the one on the mall where Bundy bit it. Common patrol officers will almost invariably be first responders and having a half dozen take on a single demon if they're armed with MP-5/10 SMGs is actually not that dangerous a proposition unless the cops royally screw up. Although, now that I think about it, arming MPs not near a front similarly wouldn't be a bad idea. I know that in the US Army they only carry around M9s while on base and 9mm is barely adequate against humans, never mind Baldrics.
Uh, actually, it's not going to be police officers doing the first responding anymore, really - It's going to be the USVs with the big semiautomatic anti-Baldrick rifles.

Hell, who's to say that police don't get those issued to them as well? After all, I imagine crime has gone down significantly.
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