Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

[Edward Yee]

Again, not likely given their apparent contempt for people who rely on tools rather than brawn and balls to achieve victory.

Sounds more like the rank and file baldricks though than the demons who've lasted more than one scene, isn't it? (That is, all those have shown more rationality, with the possible exception of Memnon.)

[Darth Wong]

Then again, Belial is pretty smart for an average demon. And he was able to manufacture superior tridents.

Either that or he simply picks the best batches to make his highest-quality tridents. There's no reason to assume he has an entire separate manufacturing technique or facility for these other tridents; it could simply be a matter of picking the best specimens or batches out of a highly variable process. That's one of the things we've really improved in the last few centuries: our control over the consistency of our processes.

How does that work, anyway? Tridents that conduct bio-electricity to become... goa'uld staff weapons?

The bronze tip is presumably an electrode, but that doesn't explain why the electricity shoots out as a ball rather than simply arcing to ground.

[tim31]

ball lightning?

[Darth Wong]

Stuart was probably thinking of ball lightning when he wrote about the tridents, because we still don't know what ball lightning is. However, all of the evidence of ball lightning so far is anecdotal; people literally explain in words what they think they saw. You'd think that with millions of video recording devices around the world, someone would have managed to catch ball lightning on video by now. But as far as I know, it hasn't happened. They haven't been able to duplicate it in the lab.

There is always the possibility that ball lightning is a person's perception of being electrocuted by conventional electric discharge, rather than a real physical phenomenon. I remember I got shocked once by an electrical mishap when I was a child. I clearly remembered seeing a glowing ball in my hands, growing until it exploded and knocked me back, leaving black singe marks on my hands. Other people in the room, interestingly enough, saw no such thing.

[tim31]

The only time I got an electrical shock was when my fingers slipped onto the prongs as I unplugged something; I just remember my vision resetting and a ringing in my ears.

What about sprites? They've been document even if they're not fully understood?

[starslayer]

The only time I got an electrical shock was when my fingers slipped onto the prongs as I unplugged something; I just remember my vision resetting and a ringing in my ears.

What about sprites? They've been document even if they're not fully understood?

Did you touch the prongs with both hands? If not, that's seems to be odd behavior for getting shocked by an outlet. I just remember my hand shaking back and forth when I was shocked.

On sprites, they are very different from any possible explanation for ball lightning. They're an extension the breakdown that causes a lightning strike into the upper atmosphere, but without a return stroke. They were predicted in 1920 by C.T.R. Wilson.

If the anecdotal evidence for ball lightning is true, then the tridents can't really be using it or something like it, as the trident discharges go where the demons want them to, and not every which way like ball lightning is supposed to. It has also been described specifically as a bolt, but I can't see how besides magic that the trident manages to induce a charge in only the target and not everything else around him, how the demon can generate the millions of volts needed to get through the air, and still avoid even giving himself cardiac arrest or burning himself, as the current needed to kill a human through burns and depolarization of tissue (lightning strike damage) should also do good amounts of damage to the demon, but it doesn't.

[Robo Jesus]

You'd think that with millions of video recording devices around the world, someone would have managed to catch ball lightning on video by now. But as far as I know, it hasn't happened.

Google image results for Ball Lightning.

[tim31]

The only time I got an electrical shock was when my fingers slipped onto the prongs as I unplugged something; I just remember my vision resetting and a ringing in my ears.

Did you touch the prongs with both hands? If not, that's seems to be odd behavior for getting shocked by an outlet. I just remember my hand shaking back and forth when I was shocked.

Yeah, just the two fingers of the one hand. I can't remember all the details; I was eleven when I did it. But I remember the sensation, very definately something happened that blacked me out in a sitting position for a moment.

[Starglider]

I suppose this would all depend on the kind of heat treatment that Belial's metalworkers understand. It's tempting to say they probably know nothing at all of heat treatment, but I believe there are some indications that even the primitive Bronze Age metalworkers knew about heat treatment on some level, albeit not as sophisticated as what we do today.

Tartaruan bronze working is the demonic state of the art, which is to say roughly equivalent to the bronze working capabilities of the Roman republic. Most of hell is still using techniques that wouldn't be out of place in the first Babylonian empire.

Again, not likely given their apparent contempt for people who rely on tools rather than brawn and balls to achieve victory.

Belial is a limited exception to this philosophy by necessity. He was stripped of all command and exiled to a worthless, distant ruin with his immediate servants and family. Most of the vassals he's gained since then were also fleeing from some serious mistake or failed plot and nowhere else would have them. This is why he focused on fortifying the place to make it not worth the hassle for local rivals to invade, and then on making weapons to trade for humans, troops and protection.

Either that or he simply picks the best batches to make his highest-quality tridents. There's no reason to assume he has an entire separate manufacturing technique or facility for these other tridents; it could simply be a matter of picking the best specimens or batches out of a highly variable process.

They are made using different techniques;

The painstakingly crafted copper laminations increased its power by around one and a half-fold, almost two-fold in the jeweled silver versions he made for the nobility.

This is probably just be an increase in conductivity, though it's possible that it works as a primitive transformer of some kind.

Stuart was probably thinking of ball lightning when he wrote about the tridents, because we still don't know what ball lightning is.

I certainly don't have a physical model for how this works. We know that high frequencies and voltages are involved, because the portals are opened using a significant amount of short-wavelength RF energy. It's possible that the tridents incorporate some sort of resonating cavity. Other than that I'm just considering it magic.

[Darth Wong]

I suppose this would all depend on the kind of heat treatment that Belial's metalworkers understand. It's tempting to say they probably know nothing at all of heat treatment, but I believe there are some indications that even the primitive Bronze Age metalworkers knew about heat treatment on some level, albeit not as sophisticated as what we do today.

Tartaruan bronze working is the demonic state of the art, which is to say roughly equivalent to the bronze working capabilities of the Roman republic. Most of hell is still using techniques that wouldn't be out of place in the first Babylonian empire.

It's going to be pretty crappy bronze then, especially in light of the working environment they have to deal with. Obviously nowhere near modern C51000. You can probably use the "one tenth of modern steel plate armour" rule of thumb.

They are made using different techniques;

The painstakingly crafted copper laminations increased its power by around one and a half-fold, almost two-fold in the jeweled silver versions he made for the nobility.

This is probably just be an increase in conductivity, though it's possible that it works as a primitive transformer of some kind.

Doesn't say anything about using different casting techniques, only "laminations", which falls into the category of fabrication methods which would not affect the underlying material composition. Except for the use of a completely different base (silver) in the most expensive versions, of course.

Stuart was probably thinking of ball lightning when he wrote about the tridents, because we still don't know what ball lightning is.

I certainly don't have a physical model for how this works. We know that high frequencies and voltages are involved, because the portals are opened using a significant amount of short-wavelength RF energy. It's possible that the tridents incorporate some sort of resonating cavity. Other than that I'm just considering it magic.

If it were electricity, then no matter what you did to it, it would still act like electricity and follow the various applicable laws. Of course, there was that experimental weapon they were working on that used lasers to ionize conduction paths for electricity, but the demons obviously don't have laser technology. Maybe we can simply assume that they have some natural ability to create these ionized conduction paths, which is why the bolts don't appear to fly straight as if it were riding laser-cut paths.

[JN1]

Wow, I go on holiday for a week and come back to not one, but two stunning new chapters!

Thanks for using my Brown's Lane scene, Stu, I appreciate that. I see that you've gone for the old traditional Home Guard name over Home Service Force, though. Makes more sense, now I think of it as the new HG are by and large civilians, not ex-servicemen as the HSF was.

[Darth Raptor]

Could their mental entanglement abilities be how they get coherent lightning bolts? Maybe they tweak probability to consistently get good luck and hit what they're aiming at. The mental exercise would make it seem extra magical.

Yeah, I know. Quantum. But I can't think of anything more plausible.

[Robo Jesus]

Could their mental entanglement abilities be how they get coherent lightning bolts? Maybe they tweak probability to consistently get good luck and hit what they're aiming at. The mental exercise would make it seem extra magical.

Yeah, I know. Quantum. But I can't think of anything more plausible.

I could so see Las Vegas putting up signs that say Demons aren't allowed to Gamble at their facilities after the war is won if this was the case.

[Darth Wong]

The laws of probability are mathematical. This is like saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition.

[Firethorn]

The laws of probability are mathematical. This is like saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition.

Remember, mathematics were created to describe the world in a consistent way. The fact that we can use the laws of probability to predict dice throws in a general way doesn't mean that the dice can't be fixed, distorting things.

[Junghalli]

Could they be somehow using TK to ionize the atmosphere between the trident's electrodes and the target?

[Robo Jesus]

The laws of probability are mathematical. This is like saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition.

=/

I think you're arguing something different from the initial statement. Probability can be changed. This is fact. There is even argument that quantum physics can allow for probabilities to be changed by allowing the one doing the changing to have an idea of what will happen (allowing them to adapt in response (an unique interpretation of schrodinger's cat)).

It's like being given in-depth knowledge about the health and physical condition of two boxers right before a match and knowing which one will have the better odds based on that knowledge. No one changed the conditions of either fighter before they made their bet, they just ended up with more information to work with before they made their bet.

Hell, there are some neurologists and anesthesiologists who think that the human brain sometimes randomly creates atomic and subatomic particles as our brains work and those "flashes of insight" or "gut feelings" are the result of that (essentially accidental and uncontrollable limited quantum computing (and this isn't even bringing up the subject of quantum decoherence)).

I'm not defending the idea that demons are or are not able to tap into the effects of what is essentially quantum computing, I'm just pointing out that your argument of "saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition" is misleading and out of context in regards to what you're responding to.

[Darth Wong]

The laws of probability are mathematical. This is like saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition.

=/

I think you're arguing something different from the initial statement.

The original statement said "tweak probability to get consistent good luck", which meant that he was actually talking about altering probability itself, not altering the atmosphere to change the parameters of the roll of the dice.

Probability can be changed. This is fact. There is even argument that quantum physics can allow for probabilities to be changed by allowing the one doing the changing to have an idea of what will happen (allowing them to adapt in response (an unique interpretation of schrodinger's cat)).

QM does not say anything about altering the laws of probability. You are confusing loaded dice with actual changes to the laws of probability.

It's like being given in-depth knowledge about the health and physical condition of two boxers right before a match and knowing which one will have the better odds based on that knowledge. No one changed the conditions of either fighter before they made their bet, they just ended up with more information to work with before they made their bet.

Totally irrelevant to the silly idea of actually having the power to grant oneself "good luck".

Hell, there are some neurologists and anesthesiologists who think that the human brain sometimes randomly creates atomic and subatomic particles as our brains work and those "flashes of insight" or "gut feelings" are the result of that (essentially accidental and uncontrollable limited quantum computing (and this isn't even bringing up the subject of quantum decoherence)).

That is a load of horseshit, and the fact that you found a wikipedia article won't change that. There are far simpler explanations for "gut feelings" than that.

I'm not defending the idea that demons are or are not able to tap into the effects of what is essentially quantum computing, I'm just pointing out that your argument of "saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition" is misleading and out of context in regards to what you're responding to.

Oh really? How so, when your examples are far less relevant?

[Battlehymn Republic]

On a completely fantasy fictional level, how often does this weird synchronicity idea show up? I'm aware of the girl in Ringworld being tested as genetically good luck, and there's that one Harry Turtledove story where a descendant of Genghis Khan is visited by a time traveller who ends up teaching him the "increase probability of any event" skill. I didn't know that there was any psuedoscientific rationale for this obscure power, though.

[Starglider]

Hell, there are some neurologists and anesthesiologists who think that the human brain sometimes randomly creates atomic and subatomic particles as our brains work and those "flashes of insight" or "gut feelings" are the result of that

No one even vaguely reputable thinks that. Penrose did because he was a theoretical physicist with very little understanding of biology or cognitive science (but plenty of conceit about his own ability to revolutionise said fields), and he was thoroughly and rightly ridiculed for it (note how he went straight to publishing pop science books about his ideas, since most of the experts laughed at him). There are still a few third rate hacks left in the field, who are prone to flinging their arms in the air and crying 'the brain is mysterious! let's find something else mysterious, pretend it's the same thing and declare the problem solved!', but the tireless members of the Bayesian Inquisition (no one has a high prior for the Bayesian Inquisition!) are closing in on them as we speak.

I'm just pointing out that your argument of "saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition" is misleading and out of context in regards to what you're responding to.

I will grant that the Darth Raptor was probably groping towards 'influence electron tunneling in some unknown way to make the air molecules ionise' not 'rewrite the basic principles of statistics', as the later makes literally no sense.

[Kie99]

Stuart, I registered here to tell you I think this fiction is absolutely brilliant. Keep up the great work.

[Darth Wong]

You'd think that with millions of video recording devices around the world, someone would have managed to catch ball lightning on video by now. But as far as I know, it hasn't happened.

Google image results for Ball Lightning.

That's not video. None of the unique properties attributed to ball lightning are apparent unless you can see how it moves.

[kdahm(the same one)]

The laws of probability are mathematical. This is like saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition.

Well, considering the topography of Hell, there is a possibility that pi in Hell does not equal pi on Earth.

[darthbob88]

The laws of probability are mathematical. This is like saying that the demons could alter the value of pi, or change the rules of addition.

Well, considering the topography of Hell, there is a possibility that pi in Hell does not equal pi on Earth.

What scares the pants off of me is the possibility that pi in the Hell-place does not always equal pi in other parts of Hell.

This is impossible, though, since pi is a universal constant, which really cannot be altered without significantly altering the conditions of life as we know it.

Correct? I know that altering the speed of light, the strength of the strong nuclear force, or any of a dozen fundamental constants will do Bad Things for life in the universe, but is pi as fundamental as c?

[Academia Nut]

Well, considering that the speed of light can be broken down to include pi, yes, pi is pretty damn important. You alter pi and pretty much everything goes out the window as it would change all of the universal constants and the way forces interact. Remember, fundamental forces act radiatively, which means that their zones of interaction are defined by things like circles and spheres. Electromagnetics are waves, which means that they have their periods defined by pi.

Pi and e control pretty much everything in the universe, and changing either one of them would cause very bad things to happen to those of us dependent on them.

Now, Hell appears to have non-Euclidean geometry, but locally at least pi should hold constant.