Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

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Post by kdahm(the same one) » 2008-04-04 11:06pm

[quote="Darth WongSo according to this model, these extra dimensions are all "flat" with respect to time? No time passes at all in these extra dimensions? I wonder how one determines things like causality with respect to portals, then. Wouldn't it be easier to say that they are flattened but not quite flat with respect to t? Then you could pass through a considerable dimension of a without a significant passage of time, thus solving the problem without the clumsy "force sucks you in and shoots you out the other side" mechanism mentioned earlier. Any apparent applied forces could be explained as the orientation of the portal pointing somewhat downward in the gravity well of either destination.[/quote]

That's where the math gets fun instead of hideous. Per Heinlein, in his "The Number of the Beast" using a 6-manifold, some of the 'universes' or subsets of dimensions have time passing on one of the other axis. In that case, it could be possible to transition to one of them, travel one mile east, transition back, and end up in the past or future. Causality is a myth when speaking of that kind of setup, though.

In this case, it wouldn't work as well. I would suggest that all beings in the local sheaf available from Earth experience duration on the 't' axis. Some of the strange effects could be because Hell uses something like a,y,z and t instead of x,y,z and t. Beings with senses that use three spatial and one chronosense get realigned when traveling through portals. The portal itself is simply a realignment gizmo, and the apparent lack of duration is because we are not equiped to sense a 7-manifold. In reality, duration simply happens somewhere else.

The only ones who may stand a chance of really understanding it are the History Monks, and Lu-Tze just knows it.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-04 11:11pm

Next time they go through, they should probably leave a force at the Hellmouth. Radio communications seem to work fine in there, so they should be able to stay in communication and home in on their signal if they get lost.

The lack of aerial intel is a problem, though. All they have are hand-drawn maps, which they will have trouble using because their navigational equipment is not working properly.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-04-05 12:01am

Looks very good. I wonder if there were any survivors or witnesses, or if they will be believed. Two questions, though:

1. Was the tank assault an equivalent 'Doolittle raid' to show that we CAN enter Hell and take the fight to them?

2. Is the seemingly deliberate use of 'Hell Place' instead of hell an attempt to strip the word of its emotional context?
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Post by Kuroneko » 2008-04-05 12:50am

If the embedding is smooth but not required to be isometric, an arbitrary spacetime should need at least eight dimensions [1]. This may be fine if the "seven dimensions" in the story refers to seven spatial ones (and some temporal ones unmentioned), except that we might have trouble embedding multiple universes into it in a physically reasonable manner.

However, things immediately get a lot more complicated if you insist that the higher-dimensional space has its own metric structure that is not independent from out spacetime. For globally isometric embeddings (i.e., the embedding preserving geometrical structure everywhere and not just topological structure). For general 3+1-dimensional spacetimes, the minimal bounds for a globally isometric embeddings are not known, but the best ones proven to work are ca. 90-dimensional (even in the globally hyperbolic case).

[1] Whitney's theorem holds this for four-dimensional Riemannian manifolds. I haven't checked the details for the pseudo-Riemannian (Lorentzian) case, but at least in the globally hyperbolic case, we can foliate the spacetime with spacelike hypersurfaces, define a universal cosmological time (possibly subject to some additional assumptions), and Wick-rotate it to get a Riemannian manifold. Not being globally hyperbolic can only make the situation worse, hence "at least".
Surlethe wrote:Does light need to behave the same way in the extra dimensions?
If we postulate that it's pseudo-Riemannian, yes. But if it is also flat (Minkowski), then continuing the attempt to embed spacetimes into it, we'd find that there solutions of the Einstein field equations, even vacuum solutions, that are not embeddable in flat Minkowski spacetime E^{1,n} for any n. For example, if a spacetime contains closed timelike curves (e.g., Gödel's rotating universe), then it cannot be imbedded in E^{1,n} because in the latter no timelike curve can meet itself again. The general embedding results alluded to above make use of either two or three timelike dimensions (but only one timelike dimension is needed for globally hyperbolic spacetimes, which never have CTCs).

---
Starglider wrote:I came up with the notion of the spatial geometry between the 3d 'bubbles' of individual planes being chaotic, such that there is no direct correspondence between a point in hell and a point in our universe. A portal (or even strong enough signal) would locally flatten this geometry and create a 1:1 correlation over a small area of space in each plane.
Here's an alternative rationalization. Instead of trying to force globally isometric embeddings, which is something that is doomed to failure anyway due to an insufficient dimensionality, we can have postulate that the embedding is merely smooth and only isometric in the vicinity of the portal, and that this is a requirement for portal operation. This has certain immediate advantages:

1. It explains why objects in our universe do not normally experience the higher-dimensional space: in most places, the metrical structures of the universe and the higher space are mostly independent, and only the topological structure is embedded. Portals happen in regions of our universe in which the metric exactly matches the induced metric from the higher space, i.e., in regions where the embedding is locally isometric.

2. As per above, portals might even happen naturally by chance, when the metric structure of our universe just happens to match the higher space. Possibly, there is some additional "coupling" requirements, but overall, a higher probability of natural formation allows better consistency with the attitude of the demons not to actively investigate such things. (But see complication in #3.)

3. Since under that assumption, the only geometrical distortion required of the of the universe to locally match the background higher-dimensional space, energy requirements for a portal may vary depending on location in the higher space, but in some places they might happen to be very low. On the other hand, it may still be very hard. Even neglecting whatever cost to actively "couple" their geometries might be (I wouldn't know), there are two physically distinguishable kinds of curvature, Ricci and Weyl; the former represents gravitational sources, and the latter everything else. Manipulating the former is in principle much easier than the latter, and it may happen that the portal required no energy-momentum whatsoever (no Ricci curvature) but does require a gravitational wave emitted by wiggling binary stars (lots of Weyl curvature), or some other such practically impossible requirement.

The next bit might require a bit more explanation. The Einstein field equations state that the stress-energy-momentum tensor corresponds to the (trace-reversed) Ricci curvature tensor. Since the latter is a symmetric bilinear form, it has n+C(n,2) = C(n+1,2) independent components. In four dimensions, that's 10 independent components, and in five, 15. The full curvature depends on the second partial derivatives of the metric components, of which there are C(n+1,2)²-nC(n+2,3) = n²(n²-1)/12 [I can provide the counting argument if anyone's interested, but the left-hand form should be a substantial hint]. That's 20 in four dimensions and 50 in five. Observation: (4-D curvature components) 20 < 50-15 (5-D Weyl curvature components). That doesn't actually prove anything rigorously, but it does motivate the result of a certain embedding theorem:

4. Any four-dimensional spacetime can be locally isometrically embedded in a five-dimensional Ricci-flat spacetime. This has a potentially profound consequence for the 'elapsed time' discussion previously, for the simple reason that it four-dimensional stress-energy is converted into higher-dimensional "gravitational radiation" (Weyl curvature), and so would experiences no proper time whatsoever in transit at the speed of light. (And with certain exotic conditions in the higher-dimensional space, such as CTCs or even more than one temporal dimension, the coordinate time lag for a round-trip may be arbitrarily short, no matter what the distance between source and destination is.)

5. Additionally, it may somewhat explain why simply dumping more energy at the portal doesn't collapse it: once the conditions of the portal are established, it just keeps dumping more gravitational radiation into the higher-dimensional space (there may be a hard limit on that, but it's plausible that we have no device of sufficient energy and power that saturates it). On the other hand, the high requirements of arbitrarily-curved global (read: "for large regions") isometric embeddings (ca. 90 dimensions) mean that certain arrangements of energy-momentum in the region of the portal may cause it to no longer be isometrically embeddable, thus collapsing the portal.
Darth Wong wrote:If mages can "flatten" the geometry of Hell to make portals, this would imply that the spacetime of Hell is extraordinarily malleable, and that its shape is not correlated to mass/energy as it is in our universe. Which, in turn, makes you wonder how gravity works in Hell.
That may vary. See #3 right above.
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Post by Sea Skimmer » 2008-04-05 04:30am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Doesn't Russia have a huge amount of titanium surplus? I'm sure there are several titanium allows would resist that kind of abrasion. They should try putting a Mig-25 through one of the Helljars--I suspect it would come out noticeably better (at low speed, granted). The Russians had to deal with operating off of very primitive airfields as well, after all.
You’ve still got the issue of turbine blade erosion to deal with, a turboshaft on a helicopter might be able to cope with having an air filter, but I don’t think any engine that relies on jet thrust could use one while still retaining decent performance. A big question would become how tall is the atmosphere of the hell place, if it has a good deal of height then the upper reaches might have less harsh conditions then ground level.
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Post by Surlethe » 2008-04-05 08:22am

Stuart, you were just looking for an excuse to use "pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis", weren't you? :wink:
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Post by tim31 » 2008-04-05 09:40am

He probably won a bet for having done so!
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Post by JN1 » 2008-04-05 11:00am

Good stuff, nice to see the fight being taken to Hell for a change. That Thunder Run should shake them up a bit.

Should all the tank designers who stuck with diesels over GT now feel vindicated?

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Post by PainRack » 2008-04-05 11:35am

Hmmm........ This is going to sound seriously crazy, but why not blimps?

Rig them up with fixed lines, fix AA on the ground around them ,MGs plus light cannon on them for anti-harpy defence and they can provide limited aerial surveillance, communications, navigation and etc.
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Post by MKSheppard » 2008-04-05 06:03pm

“Main problem is dust and the pumice cement. We have heavy-duty air filters that can cope with it and we’re designing better ones. Like the weapons side of things, the secret is to clean and keep cleaning. A couple of things, diesels are less susceptible to choking on dust that gas turbines. We might want to think about a diesel-powered M1 for operations in Hell itself. That always has been an option but the gas turbine’s advantages have meant we haven’t gone there before.
Actually, a Gas-turbine powered tank requires LESS air inflow to keep things running; meaning less air that has to be filtered than a diesel tank; because the gas turbine can dispense with a lot of the engine accessories which rob performance from the powertrain and require more airflow in the end.

I'm in North Carolina right now, and away from my sources so I can't post an exact reply yet.

PS - NOOOO what did you do with that poor P-47?!?!?!?!

EDIT: is DIMO(N) housed near the JFK Special Warfare HQ/Museum in Bragg? Or is it just in some nondescript building whose sign reads "15th Psychological Warfare Bn, Co B"? -- yes, I visited Bragg yesterday; no demonic presence was detected :D
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-05 07:31pm

It's not something you could easily convert from existing vehicles, but wouldn't electric vehicles be ideal for such a hostile environment? They only need air for case cooling, not to run through the sensitive innards of the motor.
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Post by Wyrm » 2008-04-05 07:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:It's not something you could easily convert from existing vehicles, but wouldn't electric vehicles be ideal for such a hostile environment? They only need air for case cooling, not to run through the sensitive innards of the motor.
What primary power source do you have in mind, Mike? A captured baldrick providing the juice?
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-05 08:14pm

Wyrm wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's not something you could easily convert from existing vehicles, but wouldn't electric vehicles be ideal for such a hostile environment? They only need air for case cooling, not to run through the sensitive innards of the motor.
What primary power source do you have in mind, Mike? A captured baldrick providing the juice?
Obviously, a captured baldrick would have a completely inadequate electrical power output. But isn't that the same question we face when dealing with real-life electric vehicles, what with batteries and fuel cells and other ideas? Depending on the environment, it may be worthwhile to trade operating range for durability.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-04-05 08:36pm

MKSheppard wrote:
“Main problem is dust and the pumice cement. We have heavy-duty air filters that can cope with it and we’re designing better ones. Like the weapons side of things, the secret is to clean and keep cleaning. A couple of things, diesels are less susceptible to choking on dust that gas turbines. We might want to think about a diesel-powered M1 for operations in Hell itself. That always has been an option but the gas turbine’s advantages have meant we haven’t gone there before.
Actually, a Gas-turbine powered tank requires LESS air inflow to keep things running; meaning less air that has to be filtered than a diesel tank; because the gas turbine can dispense with a lot of the engine accessories which rob performance from the powertrain and require more airflow in the end.

I'm in North Carolina right now, and away from my sources so I can't post an exact reply yet.

PS - NOOOO what did you do with that poor P-47?!?!?!?!

EDIT: is DIMO(N) housed near the JFK Special Warfare HQ/Museum in Bragg? Or is it just in some nondescript building whose sign reads "15th Psychological Warfare Bn, Co B"? -- yes, I visited Bragg yesterday; no demonic presence was detected :D
I was under the impression DIMO(N) was inside the pentagon.
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Post by Sea Skimmer » 2008-04-05 08:40pm

You’d need one heck of a battery for the job, and the stronger the battery and more heavily you cycle it the shorter lifespan it has. That’s always been a serious trade off issue with diesel sub batteries, and it becomes non trivial when you need to power thousands of armored vehicles requiring 600-1500hp each. Fuel cell technology is too immature, bulky and expensive to be practical, and you’d also still need to draw in lots of air to get oxygen for the reaction anyway.

I can’t really see the need for anything more then conventional engines and transmission setups with bigger air cleaners. In the long term it would be nice to adapt hybrid power trains, simply because they give much better fuel economy, easing logistics in a land devoid of paved roads. Hybrid logistics trucks would be more useful then hybrid AFVs, since they tend to outnumber AFVs eight or ten to one in a division and consume the bulk of a units fuel already. The US Army has already built prototypes of several different hybrid support vehicles; as far as I’m aware prototype work on hybrid AFVs has so far been limited to custom built technology demonstrators for Future Combat System, and a few relatively lightweight M113s.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-05 08:43pm

Yes, but you can accept certain horsepower and range reductions because they do not have to compete with enemy armoured vehicles, and they can use WW1-style warfare rather than highly mobile warfare in Hell if they want to; their opponents lack countermeasures for it.

It just seems to me that it would be unrealistic to expect to use the exact same tactics in Hell that they would use here.
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Post by Stuart » 2008-04-05 09:02pm

Darth Wong wrote:Yes, but you can accept certain horsepower and range reductions because they do not have to compete with enemy armoured vehicles, and they can use WW1-style warfare rather than highly mobile warfare in Hell if they want to; their opponents lack countermeasures for it. It just seems to me that it would be unrealistic to expect to use the exact same tactics in Hell that they would use here.
I don't know if you've come across mention of this but the US Army is actually experimenting with a hybrid version of both the HEMTT and the FMTV. The HEMTT version is described HERE
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-04-05 09:26pm

Doesn't this mean that something like an implanted pacemaker could ultimately allow people from Hell to function normally in Earth?
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Post by MKSheppard » 2008-04-05 09:29pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I was under the impression DIMO(N) was inside the pentagon.
Well, apparently DIMO(N) section 12 is in Bragg; I just reread that chapter...
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Post by MKSheppard » 2008-04-05 09:33pm

To elaborate further on a thought
You should see an old P-47 we stuck in a wind-tunnel and blasted with a simulated hell atmosphere while we ran its engine. After an hour, the prop was ground to nothing.
DIMO(N) had all sorts of planes available from General aviation to use as a test subject, and they used a functioning P-47!!!!!! :cry: :cry: :(
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Post by fusion » 2008-04-05 09:36pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Doesn't this mean that something like an implanted pacemaker could ultimately allow people from Hell to function normally in Earth?
But I doubt it has enough energy to be sustained on earth...


Also what happens to people who are alive when they went through the portal but die?

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Post by JBG » 2008-04-05 10:17pm

JN1 wrote:Good stuff, nice to see the fight being taken to Hell for a change. That Thunder Run should shake them up a bit.

Should all the tank designers who stuck with diesels over GT now feel vindicated?
What about using Leo-2s in hell and keeping turbine engined M1s for Earth service?

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-04-05 10:26pm

fusion wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Doesn't this mean that something like an implanted pacemaker could ultimately allow people from Hell to function normally in Earth?
But I doubt it has enough energy to be sustained on earth...


Also what happens to people who are alive when they went through the portal but die?
The biological energy produced by the organs of a demon is not all that great; it is something we can ultimately provide in an implantable form, given enough work.
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Post by Firethorn » 2008-04-05 11:09pm

I figure a worst case scenario would be to dispense with vehicles almost entirely and go to grunt labor in the form of released humans.

I mean, you start digging up random humans and you'd likely get a military rate of 5-10%, 1% for 'modern' as defined as anything WWI and later.

Put the non-military types to work hauling supplies for the military types.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-05 11:41pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
fusion wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Doesn't this mean that something like an implanted pacemaker could ultimately allow people from Hell to function normally in Earth?
But I doubt it has enough energy to be sustained on earth...

Also what happens to people who are alive when they went through the portal but die?
The biological energy produced by the organs of a demon is not all that great; it is something we can ultimately provide in an implantable form, given enough work.
It's possible the problem is much more complex than electrical energy to the heart. What if some symbiotic micro-organism in our bodies is simply not present in the dead people in Hell, and has been replaced by some other phenomenon that only works there?
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