Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

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Cecelia5578
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Post by Cecelia5578 »

Sidewinder wrote:
JBG wrote:Here's an interesting one - in the 1st hell amoured corp you could have Patton and the PanzerGraf being divisional commanders!!
Patton was a fairly devout Christian, so he might be in heaven.
Its speculated by one of the humans in a recent chapter that heaven has been closed for quite a long time, since maybe 1000AD.
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Post by Mayabird »

Of course, we might all be wrong, and that "military expert" was just very lucky to escape, and is John Bell Hood.

...He raised hell for the Confederacy! *giggles evilly*


I don't think any of us would mind a revision where the 50 million years is changed to 5 million or 50 thousand. Fifty thousand would probably work better culturally - it was just a little bit before that time (maybe 70,000 years before)when anatomically modern humans went from having big brains and little to show for it to all of a sudden leaving behind all sorts of fancy artifacts: beads, fishhooks, objects that had traveled long distances (seashells hundreds of miles inland, for instance), fancy delicate tools quite different from the stone ones that their ancestors had been making for millenia before, and even a giant carved snake that seems to have been some sort of religious object.

Not that Neandertals were any slouches in the religion department at that time - at a burial from about 60,000 or so years ago, not only were their dead placed ritualistically, but they were buried with flowers.

Now, if we're talking genetics, 5 million years would probably work better, since they had to go through some major changes in gene expression to get wings and so on. I'm trying to find the article I read a while back about how humans and chimpanzees, when just comparing base pairs and so on, are almost 99% identical, if you compare gene expression, it's actually quite a bit more different than that. I can't find it now, unfortunately.


Anyway, what this suggests to me is that extra-universal meddling with humans, or at least hominids, in this universe could have begun as early as 70,000 years before the present, though the baldricks and cousins started evolving 5 million years before.

If it even was evolution that spawned them in the first place...
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I am really a big fan of the idea that buried in Hell, or high up in Heaven, are great and ancient machines of incomprehensible age and origin that even the wisest of Angels and Demons cannot understand. And these machines are worshipped by these Angelic and Demonic mages - or perhaps hidden by Yaweh in fear!
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Post by ray245 »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I am really a big fan of the idea that buried in Hell, or high up in Heaven, are great and ancient machines of incomprehensible age and origin that even the wisest of Angels and Demons cannot understand. And these machines are worshipped by these Angelic and Demonic mages - or perhaps hidden by Yaweh in fear!
Ah yes...a neverending war betweens humans and gods, and gods on a higher and higher level....

So how many troops do you think will be in the resistance?
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Post by Robo Jesus »

ray245 wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:I am really a big fan of the idea that buried in Hell, or high up in Heaven, are great and ancient machines of incomprehensible age and origin that even the wisest of Angels and Demons cannot understand. And these machines are worshipped by these Angelic and Demonic mages - or perhaps hidden by Yaweh in fear!
Ah yes...a neverending war betweens humans and gods, and gods on a higher and higher level....
I think Shroom meant that the "ancient artifacts" are just pieces of technology we ourselves could probably understand and build (given time), but that ended up in the hands of technologically primitive civilizations (like the one Yahweh was born to) and they ended up using them without really understanding them.

Kind of like how a caveman would figure out one or two neat things on a car if they came across one, but they won't have the experiences needed to truly understand what it is they found or how to really use it.
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Post by JBG »

Sidewinder wrote:
JBG wrote:Here's an interesting one - in the 1st hell amoured corp you could have Patton and the PanzerGraf being divisional commanders!!
Patton was a fairly devout Christian, so he might be in heaven.
No doubt and good point.

Apropos of nothing I suppose, a friend recently lent me "Essential Militaria" by N Hobbes. At page 8:

"The Seven Past Lives of General George S Patton

1. A prehistoric mammoth hunter
2. A Greek hoplite who fought the Persians
3. A soldier of Alexander The Great at the siege of Tyre
4. Hannibal
5. A Roman Legionary under Julius Caesar
6. An English Knight during the Hundred Year's War
7. A Napoleonic Marshall."


I'd be interested to check out the author's sources but it does seem to paint him as a most interesting (!) person.

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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Robo Jesus wrote:I think Shroom meant that the "ancient artifacts" are just pieces of technology we ourselves could probably understand and build (given time), but that ended up in the hands of technologically primitive civilizations (like the one Yahweh was born to) and they ended up using them without really understanding them.
Both are really fine, but yeah, that's what I meant. Maybe Yaweh is like Ra in Stargate, the supposed "last of his kind" and he Needs to Feed else he will be extinct.

Makes you wonder how souls were sifted in pre-Armageddon times. Is there an interdimensional device that tells who's naughty and who's nice and who goes to Heaven or Hell? Doesn't really need to be explained, the whole mechanics could be ignored, but inquiring minds and all that...
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Post by Edward Yee »

MKSheppard wrote:
Edward Yee wrote:In that case, I vote that it be Agamemnon. :D
I vote for either Beowulf or Gilgamesh
Screw Beowulf, I vote Gilgamesh... between these two. And I vote against Temujin.
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Post by Darth Wong »

JBG wrote:
Stuart wrote:Quite apart from their superior weaponry and military tactics built a round those weapons, Kim and her men had the experience of two thousand years of warfare engrained within them.
Three thousand, we have three thousands years of war records. Some of them fairly detailed despite the intervening millennia. The Battle of Kadesh comes to mind, it occurred 3282 years (minus 45 days) ago.
Yes, but all of the Bronze Age stuff is already known to the denizens of Hell, isn't it? Isn't the military knowledge of the humans most important insofar as it deviates from what the denizens of Hell are familiar with?

The gunpowder age is what the denizens of Hell seem to be unaware of. I don't think mankind really moved much beyond the same basic tactics until the development of gunpowder, and even then, the biggest change was the loss of importance of high stone walls in defense. The use of tight formations in battle continued right up into the late 19th century. Even saying that Kim benefits from 2000 years of military history is probably excessive; it's only the last 1000 years of history which differentiates her military mindset from that of a typical Hell resident.
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Post by Slacker »

Aside from the tight formations and general logistical set-ups of pre-gunpowder armies, there are quite a number of major differences between how, say, Alexander's army deployed in the field, and say, your average Roman legion from the Republic. Which was wildly different from a late-Empire Roman army. Which was very different from a Crusader army. You get the point.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Slacker wrote:Aside from the tight formations and general logistical set-ups of pre-gunpowder armies, there are quite a number of major differences between how, say, Alexander's army deployed in the field, and say, your average Roman legion from the Republic. Which was wildly different from a late-Empire Roman army. Which was very different from a Crusader army. You get the point.
I think you're getting bogged down in details. In terms of the overall concept, not much really changed. The actual formations may have changed over time, emphasis on infantry or cavalry or archers changed over time, etc. But the basic way of war didn't change that much. At the end of the day, most battles were decided with men fighting at close quarters at one point or another. Tight formations were necessary for strength. There were occasional battles decided almost entirely by missile troops at range, but they were the exception. Modern battle is different.
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Post by Stuart »

Slacker wrote:Aside from the tight formations and general logistical set-ups of pre-gunpowder armies, there are quite a number of major differences between how, say, Alexander's army deployed in the field, and say, your average Roman legion from the Republic. Which was wildly different from a late-Empire Roman army. Which was very different from a Crusader army. You get the point.
I wouldn't agree with that on anything other than a superficial tactical level. One could, for example, take Gustav Adolph II and Philip II of Macedon, transpose them and they would both instantly understand the armies they found themselves commanding. The blocks of pikemen from the 30 Years War are form-and-function fits for the Macedonian Phalanx; the cavalry was used much the same way and it would take precisely one demonstration of each to show that musketeers and bowmen fulfilled more or less the same roles. Either General could command either Army with only the briefest of adaption times. We could take either General, drop them into a Roman Legion and it would take them only an hour or two to appeciate their new commands and begin to use them. Likewise take a good Roman Legionary commander, drop him into the Macedonian or Swedish Armies and he'd be almost instantly at home. They're different in detail, yes, but fundamentally, they are the same. In the final analysis be they Macedonian spearmen or Swedish Pikemen, the battle is won by the "push of the pike".

Now, take either or both of them, put them into a modern armored brigade and they are both utterly, completely lost. They have no frame of reference, nothing they can see fulfils a familiar function. They don't even have the vocabulary to describe what it is they don't understand.
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Post by Vehrec »

Stuart wrote:
Vehrec wrote:Stuart: 50 million years ago, the only primates on Earth or anywhere else were Tarsiers. The split from Chimps only happened 7-5 MYA. And somewhere after the chimp/human split, two ape chromosomes fused into human chromosome 2. Or maybe that was the cause of the split-either way, there's no way that a 50 mya divergence would lead to something so very close to us.

What could make the difference is changes to regulatory genes like the HOX family. HOX controls limb development and segmentation in insects for instance. It's a very powerful gene because it turns other genes on and off, causing developmental cascades. So small actual genotype changes can if they occur in the right place, have massive phenotypical changes.
As you've probably gathered I'm not a biologist and this is an area I know from nothing so I went to the human genome project. It said there that something really weird happened to the DNA that was to become human around 50 million years ago; from that point onwards there was a dramatic decrease in the rate of accumulation of repeats in the human genome. "Something weird" suited me just fine so I grabbed the number and ran with it. Now, if that's totally off the wall, I guess we can drop a zero and make it five million years ago with teh human/chimp split being seven million years ago. The gene fusing thing could be a syptom of teh split. How does that work?
It's a much better explanation from my point of view. You might be interested to know that there was a lot of variation amoung early australopithecine fossils, with some haveing flat faces and others being almost totally ape-like in their features. On the other hand, there aren't that manny fossils from that period, so it's hard to be certain about even what species there were. This was a time in human evolution when there was a lot of variation appearing rapidly, and you can probably run with that.
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Post by Junghalli »

Demons as a hominid offshoot makes sense to me. We know that Hell is a, well, Hellish environment for the living and any early human bands that wandered into it and survived would have been placed under great environmental pressures that could easily lead to rapid evolution and considerable physical changes over relatively short time. They'd have a strong selection pressure to develop increased toughness, strength, resilience to poisons, the carnivorous habits might be because Hell vegetation is inedible, the poor lighting conditions would select for eyesight suited to it etc. I'm not sure what adaptive advantage horns and a tail would have but you could chalk it up to random changes in regulatory genes that accompanied traits that were of value. Most animals that have horns use them in mating displays so sexual selection may have played a role there as well. The extreme divergences, like wings, could be the result of intensive selective breeding over millenia at a later date. After all, look what man did to the wolf with that, and their civilization is older than ours.

It would also explain certain inconsistencies, such as why Demons need to eat meat when they live in an environment that can endlessly recharge them with voodoo energy. That doesn't make much sense if they evolved in Hell; something that evolved in an environment like that probably shouldn't even have a mouth or a digestive tract of any kind, it would never need one. But if they're descended from living Earth creatures which can't tap this voodoo energy it makes perfect sense. Actually, that might explain why Demons became carnivores: Hell doesn't have much in the way of "plants" but plenty of "animals" because the animals are autotrophes just like the plants. Then again the rhinolobsters have mouths ... but they could be another Earth colonizer species that wandered through the portal. Biology of Hell-native organisms would doubtless be quite alien and interesting... The idea of another, Hell-indigenous sapient species is quite interesting, there might even be quite a few of them still alive chained up in the Pits, the oldest of the damned...

Of course this opens up a whole bunch of interesting questions about Angel ancestry.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Often Hell and Heaven are (cosmologically) located very close to each-other, in some instances they're practically nextdoor to each other. It could be that Heaven is a place where some early proto-humans (led by Yaweh) pooled their energies into cleansing it of the taint of hell.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Is it possible for Hell and Heaven to be two nations in the same world?

If that's so... then why bothering sending a messenger to communicate with Memnon on Earth when they can just go over to their neighbors?
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Post by tim31 »

Style over substance, perhaps?
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Oh, that brings up another thing... Hell took quite some time in reacting to Abrigor's defeat. I mean, they didn't know what was going on until Abrigor came back. But Heaven, they saw and were really quick in sending Apolloin (sp?). I wonder what the disparity of power between Heaven and Hell is like. Are they on more or less equal terms, or does Satan's empire exist purely on Jehovah's good graces?
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Darth Wong wrote:Even saying that Kim benefits from 2000 years of military history is probably excessive; it's only the last 1000 years of history which differentiates her military mindset from that of a typical Hell resident.
The point is that Kim was never specifically trained to assault a fortress, she's a special forces helicopter pilot, but she has a good idea of how to do it because our military history is engrained in our culture, and we have extensive records of countless battles available to anyone who is interested. For example, I can read about the Battle of Kadesh and see how Ramses fucked-up in splitting his forces and the Hittites fucked-up in looting the before the battle was done; I can read about the final siege of Constantinople and learn the value of making sure every dammed gate is locked; and it's well known that the early German successes in WW2 show the value of rapid movement, shock, and getting inside the enemy's decision cycle.
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Post by Robo Jesus »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Oh, that brings up another thing... Hell took quite some time in reacting to Abrigor's defeat. I mean, they didn't know what was going on until Abrigor came back. But Heaven, they saw and were really quick in sending Apolloin (sp?). I wonder what the disparity of power between Heaven and Hell is like. Are they on more or less equal terms, or does Satan's empire exist purely on Jehovah's good graces?
I think the biggest clue was when the angel who prostrated before god said "We have not yet received a choir from the delegation sent to hell".

That right there says that the Angels can communicate instantaneously across LARGE distances and dimensions (probably by joining together and amplifying the signal), while (most of) the demons need line of sight in order to do so. In other words, the Angels have the advantage that most modern armies have, which is real time communication.
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Post by Robo Jesus »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Often Hell and Heaven are (cosmologically) located very close to each-other, in some instances they're practically nextdoor to each other. It could be that Heaven is a place where some early proto-humans (led by Yaweh) pooled their energies into cleansing it of the taint of hell.
=/

More like Heaven is in a state of geologic stability or inactivity. I mean, the place is teeming with crytals and other such igneous rocks, meaning that it was once an ash and magma filled realm, more than likely due to the period when Heaven came into being and things were in constant flux (which would create pressure, heat, magma). Adding MORE energy to the environment wouldn't make it less energetic, but moreso.
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Post by Starglider »

Robo Jesus wrote:I think the biggest clue was when the angel who prostrated before god said "We have not yet received a choir from the delegation sent to hell".
Remember that all of earth counts as line of sight from hell; the demons can mind control people on earth from anywhere in hell. The reverse also seems to apply (you can 'see' anywhere in hell from anywhere on earth), it just takes more energy due to the nature of the barrier. This makes complete sense if the two 3D (+time) realms are separated by empty extra dimensions. That also makes it sensible for anywhere in heaven to have direct line of sight to anywhere in hell and vice versa. The amount of energy required to communicate and open portals between heaven and hell is probably higher than doing so from hell to earth, but lower than from earth to hell, if there's no 'gradient' between hell and heaven.
That right there says that the Angels can communicate instantaneously across LARGE distances and dimensions (probably by joining together and amplifying the signal), while (most of) the demons need line of sight in order to do so.
I doubt angels are any more immune to line of sight restrictions than demons. However there's no reason in principle why demons couldn't use 'message relay' demons in hell to communicate instantaneously over long distances on earth. They haven't done it yet because they haven't had to (they've never been in a war where the tempo of operations demanded it), but you may see it as a tactical innovation in the near future. Angels are probably more likely to think of this, because I get the impression they're more used to praying for guidance before doing anything. Leaving the C&C back in the higher planes probably seems like a reasonable move - avoids the humans sniping them with fire lances - but of course DIMON may find a way to tap and/or jam that communication.

The demons are already used to one environment where heavy tactical use of telepathic communications is made; clashes between purely aerial forces (i.e. raiding flocks of harpies and defending harpies). In principle strategically placed harpies circling overhead could allow for quick relay of messages over hundreds of kilometres, for the purpose of controlling ground operations. It's just that in the past, the speed advantage over just having the messenger fly over in person was marginal, so no-one bothered.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Robo Jesus wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Oh, that brings up another thing... Hell took quite some time in reacting to Abrigor's defeat. I mean, they didn't know what was going on until Abrigor came back. But Heaven, they saw and were really quick in sending Apolloin (sp?). I wonder what the disparity of power between Heaven and Hell is like. Are they on more or less equal terms, or does Satan's empire exist purely on Jehovah's good graces?
I think the biggest clue was when the angel who prostrated before god said "We have not yet received a choir from the delegation sent to hell".

That right there says that the Angels can communicate instantaneously across LARGE distances and dimensions (probably by joining together and amplifying the signal), while (most of) the demons need line of sight in order to do so. In other words, the Angels have the advantage that most modern armies have, which is real time communication.
At the same time however, they obviously could not detect the death of their delegation or what happened to it, because they were waiting for pre-arranged signals. It may be that very little information can be sent through, so it's almost like Morse code or a ping. They obviously don't have real-time telepathic connection capable of constant two-way communication, or a Heavenly observer could have kept an eye on the team in real-time.
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Post by Firethorn »

Darth Wong wrote:They obviously don't have real-time telepathic connection capable of constant two-way communication, or a Heavenly observer could have kept an eye on the team in real-time.
Given that they called the communication a 'choir', maybe it requires special setup, rather than necessarily being low bandwidth.

IE in order to punch through the barrier it takes a group of angels entering a special state to send a message - much like the choir of a church, you have a number of angels 'singing' the message in unison.

Not necessarily low bandwidth, but not something you can do instantly or while on the move. Or really in combat unless you have enough others to act as guards while they do it.
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Post by Starglider »

Firethorn wrote:Given that they called the communication a 'choir', maybe it requires special setup, rather than necessarily being low bandwidth.
Correct. Demons also use the term 'choir' with very similar meaning, they just don't act collectively like that nearly as often as angels do. You'll get to see some demonic choirs in action in an upcoming segment.
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