Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

[Darth Wong]

I am not the world's greatest military expert by any means, but is there some reason why they can't just mount hand-operated .50cal machine guns all over the place as air defense? These harpies are just giant gasbag birds after all, and B17 bombers were able to defend themselves with hand-operated machine guns.

[Cecelia5578]

Which is nice if you want to level a city, but horrible if your trying to defend a population center from a Balrdick army. THEY have ultimate strategic mobility; once they find one of the humans with the DNA to lock in on, they can spawn an army right smack back in the middle of a major city where dropping salvos of 16" gunfire isn't really the most helpful thing you can do. You're also going to have be BLOODY fast to get the ships in position to provide heavy fire if they appear a long way out and march in. I mean look at the situation in Iraq in Stewarts story; they came out and marched and over a few days, reached major towns. Unless the BB happened to be immediately in the area, there is no WAY it would have gotten on station in time to provide fire support.

Well, its not like the battle in Iraq happened near any major waterways, so I think the issue is moot for that battle.

What I think would need to be taken seriously is the need to completely wipe out whole cities if necessary. Sort of like what happened during the onset of the Dark Ages in TBO. People here seem to recoil at the idea of anything other than brutal, close quarters fighting in urban areas-but if a large enough demon force appearedI could definately see that as being an option.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I am not the world's greatest military expert by any means, but is there some reason why they can't just mount hand-operated .50cal machine guns all over the place as air defense? These harpies are just giant gasbag birds after all, and B17 bombers were able to defend themselves with hand-operated machine guns.

There isn't. Some people are convinced there is anyway. However, we wouldn't use .50's, but rather the old 20mm and 40mm standbys of WW2.

[Darth Wong]

Which is nice if you want to level a city, but horrible if your trying to defend a population center from a Balrdick army. THEY have ultimate strategic mobility; once they find one of the humans with the DNA to lock in on, they can spawn an army right smack back in the middle of a major city where dropping salvos of 16" gunfire isn't really the most helpful thing you can do. You're also going to have be BLOODY fast to get the ships in position to provide heavy fire if they appear a long way out and march in. I mean look at the situation in Iraq in Stewarts story; they came out and marched and over a few days, reached major towns. Unless the BB happened to be immediately in the area, there is no WAY it would have gotten on station in time to provide fire support.

Well, its not like the battle in Iraq happened near any major waterways, so I think the issue is moot for that battle.

What I think would need to be taken seriously is the need to completely wipe out whole cities if necessary. Sort of like what happened during the onset of the Dark Ages in TBO. People here seem to recoil at the idea of anything other than brutal, close quarters fighting in urban areas-but if a large enough demon force appearedI could definately see that as being an option.

Whoa, where was it established that they can make a portal of any size they want through this method? They made a huge one in the Middle East, but that is clearly a special area for them: 100% of divine activity in the distant past occurred there, and Satan even treated it as the whole world when he took up Jesus to a mountaintop where he could see all of it.

[Sidewinder]

The old 5 inchers unless I'm mistaken are going to be of very limited utility against harpies and the missile batteries even less so. If you want to rip out the secondary guns and missiles, then built all new hoards of heavy medium and light AAA with their associated ammunition feeds, magazines and fire control, its going to be a LOT more complex then bolting Tomahawk and Harpoon launchers to the deck, unless I'm mistaken.

In WWII, the USN's 5-inch guns were classified as dual-purpose, i.e., useful against both surface AND airborne targets. As for the hoards of heavy, medium, and light AAA, you clearly have NOT seen photos of the USN's WWII-era battleships.

By the way, I'm assuming mounting missile launchers on a warship also requires installing electronics so the missiles will be useful, e.g., C4I systems so the missiles can be aimed and launched, modern radar, communications systems so scouts can pass on targeting data, etc. Mr. Slade can provide more info on the additions necessary to allow the Iowas to fire Tomahawk and Harpoon missiles.

[Cecelia5578]

Well, people here do seemed to be worried about massive incursions into urban areas-presumably more than just a few baldricks causing chaos.

EDIT: And it was pointed out that demons can open portals where there are large numbers of Nephilim-and it was pointed out that Jews would be obvious candidates to be Nephilim, which would obviously place large cities like NYC at extreme risk.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The old 5 inchers unless I'm mistaken are going to be of very limited utility against harpies and the missile batteries even less so. If you want to rip out the secondary guns and missiles, then built all new hoards of heavy medium and light AAA with their associated ammunition feeds, magazines and fire control, its going to be a LOT more complex then bolting Tomahawk and Harpoon launchers to the deck, unless I'm mistaken.

In WWII, the USN's 5-inch guns were classified as dual-purpose, i.e., useful against both surface AND airborne targets. As for the hoards of heavy, medium, and light AAA, you clearly have NOT seen photos of the USN's WWII-era battleships.

By the way, I'm assuming mounting missile launchers on a warship also requires installing electronics so the missiles will be useful, e.g., C4I systems so the missiles can be aimed and launched, modern radar, communications systems so scouts can pass on targeting data, etc. Mr. Slade can provide more info on the additions necessary to allow the Iowas to fire Tomahawk and Harpoon missiles.

They weren't just classified that way, the 5in/38cal was the best anti-aircraft weapon in its weight range in WW2. In addition to those ten twin turrets, the Iowas, however, also mounted 80 x 40mm/56cal Bofors and 49 x 20mm/70cal Oerlikon anti-aircraft cannon. Frankly, if they had put more guns on in positions where the crews would have to evacuate before firing the main guns, they could have doubled the numbers of 20mm to boot.

[MKSheppard]

And of those 25 million, how many of them are qualified to run and maintain an Iowa class Battleship?

The Iowas' steam plants stayed in the USN a bit longer than they did; because they were also used in a series of fast underway replenishment ships IIRC. It doesn't matter, anyway, since we can just tow them using tugs.

The ships were also much newer then, had been used relativly little compared to other ships in terms of time in service AND had been maintained at a much higher level of readiness unless I'm mistaken, far better then the Class-D they had been in since being retired again, which hasn't done much for their quality and durability.

Stop being a retard. When Stuart, me, and the Rest of the HPCA gang visited the USS Wisconscin in Norfolk, we could only go above decks; the interior was sealed off and off limits because she was still a war mobilization asset; with de-humidifiers running inside.

Oh yes THATS a great idea. IF they are nice and out in the open near the cost in large ranks for you to pound to pieces. THAT is not going to happen.

Stop being a retard. What the hell do you think is happening in Iraq at this moment? Yeah, a huge giant demon army being torn to pieces.

And then consider it took years for humans to adapt to technological advances (i'm looking at you WWI)....

And since the majority of the world's population lives within 25 miles or so of the coast....

Yes but you're going to have to take OFF all those older secondary guns. The old 5 inchers unless I'm mistaken are going to be of very limited utility against harpies

Stop being a retard. the 5"/38 DP is the finest anti-aircraft weapon of WWII; and Harpies are much less faster and tougher than WWII aircraft.

If you want to rip out the secondary guns and missiles, then built all new hoards of heavy medium and light AAA with their associated ammunition feeds, magazines and fire control, its going to be a LOT more complex then bolting Tomahawk and Harpoon launchers to the deck, unless I'm mistaken.

What do you think we did in WWII? We literally bolted 20mm and 40mm mounts to the deck; and gave them a couple of minutes worth of ammo in the gun tubs; and then assigned people to keep them fed by constantly ferrying ammo up.

[Darth Wong]

Well, people here do seemed to be worried about massive incursions into urban areas-presumably more than just a few baldricks causing chaos.

EDIT: And it was pointed out that demons can open portals where there are large numbers of Nephilim-and it was pointed out that Jews would be obvious candidates to be Nephilim, which would obviously place large cities like NYC at extreme risk.

Yes, of the opening of a portal big enough to transport a single baldrick. There's no reason to believe they can open these huge portals capable of transporting hundreds of even thousands of baldricks just because they found a Nephilim somewhere.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, people here do seemed to be worried about massive incursions into urban areas-presumably more than just a few baldricks causing chaos.

EDIT: And it was pointed out that demons can open portals where there are large numbers of Nephilim-and it was pointed out that Jews would be obvious candidates to be Nephilim, which would obviously place large cities like NYC at extreme risk.

Yes, of the opening of a portal big enough to transport a single baldrick. There's no reason to believe they can open these huge portals capable of transporting hundreds of even thousands of baldricks just because they found a Nephilim somewhere.

The demons themselves said they'd never opened one on that scale before, and didn't even know if they could ever close it.

[JCady]

The cannon in an A-10 fires shells the size of milk bottles. Isn't that enough for you???

There's a gun podded version of said Avenger cannon...

[Sea Skimmer]

They weren't just classified that way, the 5in/38cal was the best anti-aircraft weapon in its weight range in WW2. In addition to those ten twin turrets, the Iowas, however, also mounted 80 x 40mm/56cal Bofors and 49 x 20mm/70cal Oerlikon anti-aircraft cannon. Frankly, if they had put more guns on in positions where the crews would have to evacuate before firing the main guns, they could have doubled the numbers of 20mm to boot.

The newer (1949) L70 40mm Bofors fires at twice the rate of WW2 56cal gun with almost no weight increase and is still in production. The 20mm armament could be doubled out of hand by simply adapting the twin Oerlikon mounts, historically the USN started to do that, but never produced anything like enough twin mountings before the war ended.

However given the limited range and hitting power, not to mention the magazine loading, of WW2 20mm guns I don’t see any point in brining them back into production. Several other 20-25mm guns are on the market today that would work fine, such as the ZU-23. A handful of .50cal mounts can serve as ultra close range defense, like say so close that exploding shells would be dangerous to the ship its self, Harpies actually on the deck ect….

This is a solution looking for a problem. It makes almost as much sense as reactivating USS Oregon did in 1941. Link

Oregon ended up as an ammunition ship for the mobile base squadrons which were absolutely vital to supporting the fast carrier task force raids into the western Pacific, hardly a senseless job but it seems you can’t appreciate it.

It took six years to do all four.

Yeah because the USN wasn’t given funding to do all four at once and wasn’t in any kind of mobilization environment.

Current estimates are about two years each with each one costing nearly as much as a Burke.

Trust me, I know all about the issue in exquisite detail thanks to years of debates on warships1 concerning the feasibility of reactivation and if it made any sense at all (it sure doesn’t for a normal war), and the ‘current estimate’ you are referencing is more like 15 years old, and would involve a lot of stuff that’s not really relevant hear, such as upgrading the Tomahawk launchers to use newer versions of the missile.

All this for a ship that really does nothing that can't be done quicker and cheaper by either existing assets or, if really needed, an arsenal ship. One could likely get two or three arsenal ships for the cost of a reactivated battleship. Certainly one could crew a dozen with the personnel needed to crew one Iowa.

You could get one arsenal ship for the cost of reactivating a battleship, but it would take years to build the ship and you’re completely ignoring the fact that you then need billions of dollars worth of missiles to make arsenal ship do anything. We already have 23,000 rounds of 16in ammo. What’s more, Arsenal Ship was never a serious design and had little work done on it, so you’d have to wait months if not years before you could even start construction.

Arsenal ship is also utterly unable to defend its self or find targets; the crew of about 50 just looks after the engines, so don’t forgot to factor in the need for several escorts. The battleship meanwhile should be more then able to look after itself given its combination of a large automatic weapons battery, high speed and massive fuel capacity to sustain high speeds. If it hits one of those swimming baldricks, woe to the bladrick, though I’d imagine the bow would start leaking.

So long as this army just happens to materialize within twenty miles of where one of four ships happens to be deployed at the time. They aren't immobile, of course, but it does take time, up to a week depending on location, to get them from where they are to where they're needed. I'd rather use B-52's if I had the need to dump a few hundred unguided two-thousand pound bits of steel and HE on a target that suddenly appeared somewhere in the world..

That’s nice but B-52s also typically need about two days on the ground between sorties, and completing a single sortie can take as long as 42 hours. The whole point of artillery is providing sustained all weather support. Bombers are great but they only make raids, we can't rely on them to do everything.

No such round was used in Vietnam

Yeah, I was actually thinking of the 8in LRBA sabot shell used by heavy cruisers. It inceased range from 30,000 yards to no less then 70,000 yards. A similar in concept 13in sabot shell which could also reach about 70,000 yards was in fact test fired in the 1980s though. Accuracy is not good, but still sufficient for hitting a massed army. Firing normal ammo the 16in guns are more accurate then many sniper rifles, it’s just that they shoot to such a long range that you still had significant dispersion at the end of it all.

Mind you., no one is currently making 16 inch rounds, so putting them in production might take a bit of time. Given that there's an urgent need for 120 and 155 mm, they might be reluctant to reduce that for something that would be in much lesser demand.

Making an HE shell isn’t really hard, its is literally just a solid block of steel with a cavity bored in the bottom and some threads cut for the fuse and base plug, but your right that other ammo will be the priority. Still, dozens of barrels, barrel liners and thousands of rounds of ammo are already stockpiled.

I'm trying to imagine an eighty-year old WWII vet trying to demonstrate loading a sixteen inch gun. Getting people to train others effectively on systems they haven't seen in sixty years is simply not realistic. Even getting folks who haven't seen the systems in about fifteen is not a great idea. Back in the eighties, most of the Iowas systems were still in service on other ships - the sixteen inch guns were about the only unique items.

Figuring out how to safely load a 16in gun is just not that hard, we have ample documentation on the matter even if no one remembers. The 1989 turret explosion has been attributed to many things; but keep in mind even back when we had a whole fleet of battleships and big gun cruisers we still had turret explosions from time to time.

The real complex part of the ships are those old steam engines, but luckily enough the engines from the incomplete Illinois and Kentucky were installed in four Sacramento class replenishment ships (half plant each with two shafts). The Sacramento class meanwhile decommissioned only in 2004-2005, finding those men would be the top priority for forming a new crew.

[MKSheppard]

I'm trying to imagine an eighty-year old WWII vet trying to demonstrate loading a sixteen inch gun.

Don't need one. We can bring back all the people who manned the guns from the 1980s to 1991. They'll be in their 30s-40s by now.

[R011]

Oregon ended up as an ammunition ship

It became an ammo barge when public pressure lead the Navy to reconsider scrapping the recently donated museum piece. By then the superstructure had been removed and the interior gutted.

the USN wasn’t given funding to do all four at once

I suspect yard space and technical expertise were major factors as well

the ‘current estimate’ you are referencing is more like 15 years old, and would involve a lot of stuff that’s not really relevant hear, such as upgrading the Tomahawk launchers to use newer versions of the missile.

Actually, the fifteen year old estimates were for two-hundred and fify million each to restore them to their obsolete mid eighties configuration. Their condition has not improved since and they need modern C3 gear to operate with the fleet. More recent guestimates are in the billion dollar range. They doesn't include bringing back ABL Tomahawks.

You could get one arsenal ship for the cost of reactivating a battleship, but it would take years to build the ship

Why? It's a merchant hull with VLS cells added. All well understood, OTS technology that nearly any yard can do.

You then need billions of dollars worth of missiles to make arsenal ship do anything

TLAM are relatively cheap, about 500,000 each. POLAR (navalized GMLRS) even cheaper. Even more important, is that each ship uses a tenth the crew. That's another battalion battle group or a hundred shopping malls or schools guarded against terror attacks.

Arsenal ship is also utterly unable to defend its self

Against modern AAW and ASW threats. Baldricks are not such a threat.

or find targets;

Like large bronze age armies? Somehow I think they'd manage.

If it hits one of those swimming baldricks, woe to the bladrick

Somehow I suspect a fifteen knot, ten thousand ton ship would do as well, even to one of the rare Herald Leviathans. Against the much smaller "normal" demons, there should be no problem.

That’s nice but B-52s also typically need about two days on the ground between sorties, and completing a single sortie can take as long as 42 hours. The whole point of artillery is providing sustained all weather support.

You mean they won't have a ready force of B-52's available for sudden baldrick attacks? Should I note that 42 hours, which includes return trip time, is shorter than a week? As for all weather, flying above the weather and navigating to within a few tens of meters. more than good enough against a baldrick army, is a trivial matter now.

it’s just that they shoot to such a long range that you still had significant dispersion at the end of it all.

Which means practically speaking, you get the same effect from air dropped bombs. Indeed, JDAM means you can use fewer bombs if accuracy is needed than shells. Against a baldrick army though, that level of pr3cision is probably wasted.

Making an HE shell isn’t really hard

It is when you don't have the tooling.

dozens of barrels, barrel liners and thousands of rounds of ammo are already stockpiled.

Ammo yes, barrels and liners, no.

Figuring out how to safely load a 16in gun is just not that hard

Doing it is when you're eighty. But there's more than loading to the care and feeding of the sixteen inch guns, and the 5/38's, and the directors, and the HVAC systems, and the plumbing systems, and the kitchens, . . .

finding those men would be the top priority for forming a new crew

And pulling them out of whatever jobs they have now? That would be disruptive, especially given that there will be naval expansion.

[R011]

I'm trying to imagine an eighty-year old WWII vet trying to demonstrate loading a sixteen inch gun.

Don't need one. We can bring back all the people who manned the guns from the 1980s to 1991. They'll be in their 30s-40s by now.

It was specifically mentioned that WWII vets could be returned to service. Getting guys who haven't touched a sixteen inch gun in fifteen years is a bit better, but do note that any still in the navy have long since been reassigned to other jobs that their needed in. These guys are now Chiefs and senior officers - hard to replace in what they're doing now. Most of the guys who are out are either retirees or were junior ratings. Some of the retirees could instruct, bearing in mind fifteen years of no hands on, few of the former junior ratings could. The lack of supporting infrastructure is an even bigger limitation.

[Stuart Mackey]

I'm trying to imagine an eighty-year old WWII vet trying to demonstrate loading a sixteen inch gun.

Don't need one. We can bring back all the people who manned the guns from the 1980s to 1991. They'll be in their 30s-40s by now.

It was specifically mentioned that WWII vets could be returned to service. Getting guys who haven't touched a sixteen inch gun in fifteen years is a bit better, but do note that any still in the navy have long since been reassigned to other jobs that their needed in. These guys are now Chiefs and senior officers - hard to replace in what they're doing now. Most of the guys who are out are either retirees or were junior ratings. Some of the retirees could instruct, bearing in mind fifteen years of no hands on, few of the former junior ratings could. The lack of supporting infrastructure is an even bigger limitation.

The question is 'need' and thats up to Stuart. One thing I have found working with museum pieces is that its possible to bring almost anything back to service, the only questions, assuming the need, are time, money and will power.

[Firethorn]

Back on the topic of homeland defense, I brought this up to a gun board and they had an interesting proposition:

12 gauge iron sabots.

Initial thought was producing shotguns, which are cheap to produce, not needing a thick rifled barrel, but then I had a thought: Shotguns are the most popular gun in the USA, and 12 gauge is the most popular caliber of shotgun.

Would we even need to produce that many? We could give up standardization in exchange for having people bring their own, simply make sure that the weapon has an open choke and is safe for the saboted ammunition. Then issue it out. We shouldn't have much in the way of maintenance, as we're talking about an emergency weapon, only to be used in emergencies and to normally be maintained by the owner, not by the military.

[Mr. Coffee]

Why bother designing a new iron slug when there's already a product available that meets the requirment?

Available in 12ga firing a 385grn slug at 1900fps and in 20ga firing a 260grn slug at 1900fps. The 12ga shell has been tested for years with hunters and has a proven record for dropping just any game animal there is in North America. With the 20ga you get a good amount of power in a package with less recoil so people that can't handle full on 12ga can still have a means of putting large holes in Mr. Baldrick.

What's better, I can buy this stuff of the shelf at my local WalMart.

Edit: While I'm thinking about it, Brenneke Makes some outstanding slugs in 12ga, 20ga, and .410 that would fit the bill perfectly for civilian or military anti-Baldrick up close.

[Starglider]

Yes, of the opening of a portal big enough to transport a single baldrick. There's no reason to believe they can open these huge portals capable of transporting hundreds of even thousands of baldricks just because they found a Nephilim somewhere.

I've written a fair chunk of provisional material on what it takes to open big portals. It isn't easy, but it does only take one Nephilim to start the process. In fact in principle it takes none, because if the Nephilim are a demon creation then the demons originally had to get to earth without them somehow (and it's been implied that they can reach other planets, inhabited or not).

[Darth Wong]

Yes, of the opening of a portal big enough to transport a single baldrick. There's no reason to believe they can open these huge portals capable of transporting hundreds of even thousands of baldricks just because they found a Nephilim somewhere.

I've written a fair chunk of provisional material on what it takes to open big portals. It isn't easy, but it does only take one Nephilim to start the process. In fact in principle it takes none, because if the Nephilim are a demon creation then the demons originally had to get to earth without them somehow (and it's been implied that they can reach other planets, inhabited or not).

Yes, but they presumably got to Earth in the first place through the Middle East, which seems to be a particular nexus of whatever phenomena facilitate this process. If they can send large armies wherever they like, one must wonder why they have thus far not opened a portal anywhere on Earth outside the Middle East where they sent more than one demon through at a time.

[Starglider]

If they can send large armies wherever they like, one must wonder why they have thus far not opened a portal anywhere on Earth outside the Middle East where they sent more than one demon through at a time.

Satan doesn't even know for sure that Abigor has been defeated yet. Most of hell doesn't realise that it's at war. Even when it does, it's been a very long time since they've had to think of anything other than 'send single demon to slaughter some humans' or 'send massive army to crush rebellious planet'. Once they start treating humans as a threat on the level of their old angelic enemies (i.e. start treating humans as equals), then you might see some small-unit raiding tactics.

[Darth Wong]

If they can send large armies wherever they like, one must wonder why they have thus far not opened a portal anywhere on Earth outside the Middle East where they sent more than one demon through at a time.

Satan doesn't even know for sure that Abigor has been defeated yet. Most of hell doesn't realise that it's at war. Even when it does, it's been a very long time since they've had to think of anything other than 'send single demon to slaughter some humans' or 'send massive army to crush rebellious planet'. Once they start treating humans as a threat on the level of their old angelic enemies (i.e. start treating humans as equals), then you might see some small-unit raiding tactics.

Oh yeah, I could see small-unit raids for sure. I just couldn't see them opening up another Hellmouth the same size as the one they opened in Iraq. Stuart mentioned earlier that there was some kind of "nexus" which makes it particularly easy to do things there.

[Cecelia5578]

Yes, of the opening of a portal big enough to transport a single baldrick. There's no reason to believe they can open these huge portals capable of transporting hundreds of even thousands of baldricks just because they found a Nephilim somewhere.

I've written a fair chunk of provisional material on what it takes to open big portals. It isn't easy, but it does only take one Nephilim to start the process. In fact in principle it takes none, because if the Nephilim are a demon creation then the demons originally had to get to earth without them somehow (and it's been implied that they can reach other planets, inhabited or not).

Yes, but they presumably got to Earth in the first place through the Middle East, which seems to be a particular nexus of whatever phenomena facilitate this process. If they can send large armies wherever they like, one must wonder why they have thus far not opened a portal anywhere on Earth outside the Middle East where they sent more than one demon through at a time.

I realize that this fic has tended (so far) to be a little Judeo-Christian centric, but what about other parts of the world in which religion has played an important role-like the founding regions of Buddhism and Hinduism, or places like Buddhist monasteries, shrines, blah blah blah?
That could make it possible to open portals to other, "religious intensive" areas.

[Darth Wong]

I realize that this fic has tended (so far) to be a little Judeo-Christian centric, but what about other parts of the world in which religion has played an important role-like the founding regions of Buddhism and Hinduism, or places like Buddhist monasteries, shrines, blah blah blah?
That could make it possible to open portals to other, "religious intensive" areas.

Well, the fic does focus on a cosmology where Satan and Yahweh turn out to be real, so it should naturally be pretty Judeo-Christian centric. I suspect that alternate religions are simply false in this cosmology (or more false than Judeo-Christianity anyway, many of whose tenets are also false in this cosmology).

If not, then I look forward to the arrival of Galactic Overlord Xenu's conquering forces. And Thor too.

[Junghalli]

On the question of wood and photosynthetic organisms in Hell that came up (way) earlier, according to Dante's Inferno IIRC the punishment for suicide is being turned into a tree, so plant life of some sort in Hell is not inconsistent with classical sources.

Another interesting factoid I learned in my Milton Seminar: if we go by classical sources only the lowest two ranks of Angels (Angels and Archangels) ever leave Heaven. This may indicate the ones we've seen so far are the relative runts of the litter. And the Cherbub and Seraph designations given to the Angels in the diplomatic team (as I remember) that got blown up are probably not accurate: those are the top two ranks.