The origin of stagnation in the 40K universe

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
Gullible Jones
Jedi Knight
Posts: 674
Joined: 2007-10-17 12:18am

The origin of stagnation in the 40K universe

Post by Gullible Jones »

I've seen a few threads where people say that the scientific method is considered heretical in 40K. If that's the case, during what time period was it first considered heresy? Was this the work of the people who were left in charge after the Emperor "died", or is the openmindedness required for scientific investigation sufficiently conducive to corruption by Chaos that the Emperor saw fit to ban it early on?

(Making the scientific method heretical just seems like a bizarre move in such a setting, seeing how advantageous it would be to have a technological edge on the Imperium's enemies.)
User avatar
Darth Raptor
Red Mage
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2003-12-18 03:39am

Post by Darth Raptor »

Blame Tzeentch. Science is heretical because it's so readily corruptible.
User avatar
Peptuck
Is Not A Moderator
Posts: 1487
Joined: 2007-07-09 12:22am

Post by Peptuck »

Pretty much the point where the Adeptus Mechanicus took over.

Keep in mind, the scientific method isn't considered heresy, its just the AdMech applies a lot of unnecessary religious ritual and scripture to every single aspect of maintaining and researching technology.
X-COM: Defending Earth by blasting the shit out of it.

Writers are people, and people are stupid. So, a large chunk of them have the IQ of beach pebbles. ~fgalkin

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood. ~CaptainChewbacca
User avatar
Darth Tanner
Jedi Master
Posts: 1445
Joined: 2006-03-29 04:07pm
Location: Birmingham, UK

Post by Darth Tanner »

its just the AdMech applies a lot of unnecessary religious ritual
Is it really unnecessary? I thought that failure to comply with it resulted in your tank being possessed by demons and eating you.
Pretty much the point where the Adeptus Mechanicus took over
Which would be the founding of the Imperium right? Wasn't the Emperor, while free, a strong advocate of science, his own webway experiments for example. I thought the religious lunacy only set in with the aftermath of the Horus Heresy when the demonic threat revealed itself, not to mention half the mechanicus turning traitor.
seeing how advantageous it would be to have a technological edge on the Imperium's enemies
Who needs fancy technology when you can drown your foe in the blood of the guard.
Get busy living or get busy dying... unless there’s cake.
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Re: The origin of stagnation in the 40K universe

Post by Ford Prefect »

Gullible Jones wrote:I've seen a few threads where people say that the scientific method is considered heretical in 40K.
They're full of shit. It's really weird in 40K, but it is there. There is more than one example of Tech-Priests going through logical experimentation (most of these examples are in relation to the Necrontyr).

Look, you don't build new laser guns and maintain city-sized spaceships without having some kind of understanding. The Adepts of Mars are a body of scientific research, even if it's wrapped up in mysticism and ritual. There is stagnation in the Imperium, but it is not on purpose - the entire fundamental purpose of the Adeptus Mechanicus is to rectify this (the Quest for Knowledge, though admittedly it has elements of Indiana Jones in it).
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
Brother-Captain Gaius
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6859
Joined: 2002-10-22 12:00am
Location: \m/

Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

Darth Tanner wrote:Is it really unnecessary? I thought that failure to comply with it resulted in your tank being possessed by demons and eating you.
No. One of the most common misunderstandings about 40k is that the ritual and superstition surrounding technology is as arcane and supernatural as it sounds at first glance - that is not the case. True, some rituals really are unnecessary, but for the most part it is more a symptom of learning by rote rather than critically.

For example, a modern day computer science major generally learns that in order to get a program to work, you have to tell the computer to assemble the code into a usable format that the computer understands - i.e., compile it. A WH40K cogitator tech-adept, by comparison, learns that the cogitator's machine-spirit must be appeased via the correct rituals of activation, and the only way to coax the machine-spirit into life is to press the holy button marked 'Compile'.
Agitated asshole | (Ex)40K Nut | Metalhead
The vision never dies; life's a never-ending wheel
1337 posts as of 16:34 GMT-7 June 2nd, 2003

"'He or she' is an agenderphobic microaggression, Sharon. You are a bigot." ― Randy Marsh
User avatar
Peptuck
Is Not A Moderator
Posts: 1487
Joined: 2007-07-09 12:22am

Post by Peptuck »

Which would be the founding of the Imperium right? Wasn't the Emperor, while free, a strong advocate of science, his own webway experiments for example. I thought the religious lunacy only set in with the aftermath of the Horus Heresy when the demonic threat revealed itself, not to mention half the mechanicus turning traitor.
AdMech was around prior to the Imperium. The Emperor joined forces with them because they and the many Forge Worlds they'd established would supply the materials he needed for the Great Crusade. Its not a bad idea to join forces with the guys who've already established hundreds of factory planets across the galaxy you plan to reconquer.
X-COM: Defending Earth by blasting the shit out of it.

Writers are people, and people are stupid. So, a large chunk of them have the IQ of beach pebbles. ~fgalkin

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood. ~CaptainChewbacca
User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4260
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am

Post by loomer »

Science (Damn, I wish we had SA's :science: emoticon.) isn't strictly speaking heretical in 40k. Puritan inquisitors will burn you, the mainline will keep a very close eye on you incase you get corrupted, and radicals will shove materials at you. Scientists in the Imperium just need to pray they get a Radical protecting them.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
User avatar
Gullible Jones
Jedi Knight
Posts: 674
Joined: 2007-10-17 12:18am

Post by Gullible Jones »

I thought Radicalism was also a sin? :lol:

(Gaius: thanks for clearing that up. The impression I get is that, however nasty it might be canonically, a lot of fans wank the power of Chaos to utterly ridiculous levels.)
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Peptuck wrote:.

AdMech was around prior to the Imperium. The Emperor joined forces with them because they and the many Forge Worlds they'd established would supply the materials he needed for the Great Crusade. Its not a bad idea to join forces with the guys who've already established hundreds of factory planets across the galaxy you plan to reconquer.
No, they only had Mars because the Sol System was cut off from the rest of the galaxy during the Age of Strife. Then Slaanesh is born and the warpstorm is blown away. Earth has fallen into chaos and then been conquered by the Emperor. He joins forces with the Adeptus Mechanicus, who control Mars (incidentally, waging wars in Martian dust storms and vehicle drowning sand plains is where the Adeptus learned to love the Titan) to reconquer the galaxy. Great Crusades, creation of the Primarchs, first Marines, etcetera all come after. So do the forge worlds.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
KlavoHunter
Jedi Master
Posts: 1401
Joined: 2007-08-26 10:53pm

Post by KlavoHunter »

Imperial Overlord wrote:No, they only had Mars because the Sol System was cut off from the rest of the galaxy during the Age of Strife. Then Slaanesh is born and the warpstorm is blown away. Earth has fallen into chaos and then been conquered by the Emperor. He joins forces with the Adeptus Mechanicus, who control Mars (incidentally, waging wars in Martian dust storms and vehicle drowning sand plains is where the Adeptus learned to love the Titan) to reconquer the galaxy. Great Crusades, creation of the Primarchs, first Marines, etcetera all come after. So do the forge worlds.
Incorrect - During the warp storms around Sol in the Age of Strife, Mars, once under the control of the Ad Mech, was building ships, stocking them with copies of all Mars' knowledge, and a Titan Legion each, and whenever there was a brief calm or gap in the warp storms, they'd launch the ships out to found new Forge Worlds.

This was a rather bloody process, as the Warp is a capricious thing, but they managed to establish quite a few Forge Worlds separate from Mars that were ready and eager to join with their Ad Mech brothers and the Imperium when the Emperor launched his Crusade.
"The 4th Earl of Hereford led the fight on the bridge, but he and his men were caught in the arrow fire. Then one of de Harclay's pikemen, concealed beneath the bridge, thrust upwards between the planks and skewered the Earl of Hereford through the anus, twisting the head of the iron pike into his intestines. His dying screams turned the advance into a panic."'

SDNW4: The Sultanate of Klavostan
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

KlavoHunter wrote: Incorrect - During the warp storms around Sol in the Age of Strife, Mars, once under the control of the Ad Mech, was building ships, stocking them with copies of all Mars' knowledge, and a Titan Legion each, and whenever there was a brief calm or gap in the warp storms, they'd launch the ships out to found new Forge Worlds.

This was a rather bloody process, as the Warp is a capricious thing, but they managed to establish quite a few Forge Worlds separate from Mars that were ready and eager to join with their Ad Mech brothers and the Imperium when the Emperor launched his Crusade.
Where did you get this from?
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

Imperial Overlord wrote:No, they only had Mars because the Sol System was cut off from the rest of the galaxy during the Age of Strife. Then Slaanesh is born and the warpstorm is blown away. Earth has fallen into chaos and then been conquered by the Emperor. He joins forces with the Adeptus Mechanicus, who control Mars (incidentally, waging wars in Martian dust storms and vehicle drowning sand plains is where the Adeptus learned to love the Titan) to reconquer the galaxy. Great Crusades, creation of the Primarchs, first Marines, etcetera all come after. So do the forge worlds.
There were forge worlds before. The religion of the Omnissiah had spread throughout the galaxy. They were also cut off from Mars, though. Mars and its tech priests had long been the keepers of knowledge, though they were not as outright religious before the Age of the Imperium.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

I was of the impression that the Tech Priests spread from Mars into the rest of the galaxy along with the rest of the Imperium, but if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I did pretty much stop paying attention to 40K in the late 90s and I'm better at the oldest and newest fluff. Again, what are the sources that have that information?
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

Imperial Overlord wrote:Where did you get this from?
The most recent source is from page 41 of the omnibus heresy artbook.
They were also fixated weith understanding what fate had befallen the galaxy. To this end they periodically dispatched great vessels into the warp in hope that some clues would be found. These were the Explorator Fleets of Mars. Over the centuries thousands of such expeditions left Mars, mandy founded new colonies that were to become the Forge Worlds. Others were simply lost for all time.
Incidentally, this one suggests that the Mechanicum only gained dominance of Mars in the 'first centuries of the age of strife' although it had been a world of technology before that, one assumes.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Well, they had a history of fighting campaigns with Titans so that would imply

1) a high tech base to construct Titan Legions

2) a high tech base not to simply roll over and die when confronted by a Titan lead army.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

So what is the Inquistion's view of Occam's Razor?
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Lord Relvenous
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1501
Joined: 2007-02-11 10:55pm
Location: Idaho

Post by Lord Relvenous »

The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!
Coyote: Warm it in the microwave first to avoid that 'necrophelia' effect.
User avatar
Darksider
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5271
Joined: 2002-12-13 02:56pm
Location: America's decaying industrial armpit.

Post by Darksider »

Lord Relvenous wrote:The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!
Isn't that the inquisition's bog-standard answer to just about everything?
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

You do realize that the original William of Oakham was a Witchhunter, who got exiled for proving another Witchhunter to be a fraud?
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Gullible Jones
Jedi Knight
Posts: 674
Joined: 2007-10-17 12:18am

Post by Gullible Jones »

Darksider wrote:
Lord Relvenous wrote:The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!
Isn't that the inquisition's bog-standard answer to just about everything?
Moreover: is this out of necessity (i.e. thinking in an intelligent fashion = guaranteed corruption by Tzeentch), or has the Inquisition just gotten full of nutcases?
KlavoHunter
Jedi Master
Posts: 1401
Joined: 2007-08-26 10:53pm

Post by KlavoHunter »

Gullible Jones wrote:
Darksider wrote:
Lord Relvenous wrote:The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!
Isn't that the inquisition's bog-standard answer to just about everything?
Moreover: is this out of necessity (i.e. thinking in an intelligent fashion = guaranteed corruption by Tzeentch), or has the Inquisition just gotten full of nutcases?
A little of Column A, a little of Column B, I think. :wink:
"The 4th Earl of Hereford led the fight on the bridge, but he and his men were caught in the arrow fire. Then one of de Harclay's pikemen, concealed beneath the bridge, thrust upwards between the planks and skewered the Earl of Hereford through the anus, twisting the head of the iron pike into his intestines. His dying screams turned the advance into a panic."'

SDNW4: The Sultanate of Klavostan
User avatar
Cykeisme
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2416
Joined: 2004-12-25 01:47pm
Contact:

Post by Cykeisme »

How does rational thought invite the corrupting predations of the mighty Architect of Fate?
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

The Inquisition is filled with such a variety of different minds that saying 'the Inquisition believes this' is ridiculous. To the unlucky citizen that knows the inquisition even exists, they believe it is a cohesive entity, which is about as accurate as a blind grot. The whole thing is split into different bodies of thought and philosophy, along with the different interpretations and individual Inquisitor brings.

The only 'faction' that can said to be cohesive are the Monodominants, and yes, their automatic answer to everything is 'Burn the witch! Purge the alien! Cleanse the taint!'.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

Cykeisme wrote:How does rational thought invite the corrupting predations of the mighty Architect of Fate?
It doesn't. At least, not if you're not a psyker. The chaos gods existed - perhaps less powerful - throughout the (comparatively?) rational Golden/Dark Age of Technology, without immediately causing mass corruption.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Post Reply