Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

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Post by Beowulf » 2008-03-01 11:09pm

It looks like the GPU-2/A weighs less than 600 lbs, and that has a M197(M61 derivative) plus 300 rounds of ammunition, and sufficient battery power to fire 900 rounds. Since we don't need a self contained gun pod, the weight will be less. Probably enough less that it'd be lighter than the 6 M3s it's replacing. I wouldn't be surprised if the 6 M3s weighed 300lbs by themselves. The bigger problem is probably reshaping the fairings to fit the gun, if it's necessary.

The M197 does have a lower rate of fire than the M61, since it loses 3 barrels. On the other hand, it'll spin up to full rate faster. I'm not sure if the US has any 20x102 autocannons that aren't Gatlings. Any other 20mm starts creating ammo compatibility problems.

And you do want the highest practical rate of fire, even though they're facing Harpies, not planes. The biggest problem with aircraft gunnery is actually managing to hit the target. If the gun fires slowly, you may end up with a round going on each side of the target, and not actually hitting.
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Post by Stuart » 2008-03-01 11:52pm

Defense Perimeter Charlie, Hit, Western Iraq.

“Just how many of these bastards are there?” McElroy was distinctly aggrieved. Despite the fight they were putting up, he and the rest of his squad were being pushed steadily back by the sheer weight of numbers that were being thrown against them. They’d bled the attackers badly on Perimeter Alfa, the baldricks seemed to have no idea of fire and maneuver, they’d just walked straight into the machine gun fire. Only the waves behind the first group had simply climbed over their dead and kept on coming.

“I heard over a million.” Private Gerry Links repeated the rumor with grim relish. “And it looks like most of them are here.”

“If you mean right in front of us, right now, I’d say you’re just about right. There’s more of them than we’ve got bullets.” And that, McElroy thought, was the pure, unvarnished truth. Oh, the .50s were cutting the baldricks down all right and the snipers were having a field day but there weren’t enough of them and they were being swamped by the numbers coming through. More than just the numbers, the bastards were so damned difficult to kill. The truth was that the M16s just weren’t cutting it. McElroy had put a whole 30-round magazine into one baldrick and the damned thing had still torn Jim ‘Cookie’ Fields apart before it had gone down. Explosives were doing most of the work, grenades from the M19 automatic launchers and the M203s. That and the Claymores, human or baldrick, the spray of fragments from a Claymore shredded them nicely.

“Here they come.” There was a crescendo of firing from the block to their left, a mad minute as Baldwin’s squad poured fire into the baldrick assault teams before leaving via the back of their building. That would leave McElroy with an exposed flank and he’d have to fall back as well soon. To his front, he saw black figures suddenly detach from the building in front and run out across the street. He took a careful bead on the leader and fired as fast as he could squeeze the trigger, watching shot after shot slam into the baldrick’s chest. It was staggering but still coming forward, McElroy felt he would have better luck if he spat at it. Off to his left, the squad machine gun snarled out a burst and the baldrick McElroy had wounded went down. There was a crash that shook dust from the walls and wrecked ceiling of the block, the last of the unit’s claymores had gone off.

The front of the building caved in, the baldricks were a lot stronger than humans and the flimsy construction of Iraqi walls wasn’t even close to being strong enough to hold them out. McElroy had lost some of his people first when the walls the baldricks pushed down had trapped the men behind them but they’d learned that lesson. Now they were in hastily-prepared positions at the rear of the room, firing up and out at the baldricks as they loomed over the wrecked structure. Baldricks weren’t actually that much taller than humans, McElroy guessed that they averaged between seven and eight feet tall but they seemed to be much bigger – especially when they were coming straight at you all teeth and claws.

He had a fresh magazine in his rifle, that was the good news. The bad news was that it was his last one, he’d run through his basic ammunition load in just a few minutes. He saw the green spurts as the bullets tore into the chest of the leading baldrick but, as McElroy had expected, the damned thing just kept coming. “Everybody out!”

He heard the rest of his unit scramble out the hole they’d knocked in the back wall of their block. McElroy paused just for a second, tossing a hand grenade at one of the baldricks. The black monster caught it and looked curiously at the small metal egg. The sheer incongruity of the sight caused McElroy to delay for a second and that killed him. The baldrick he’d just shot slashed at him with his claws, ripping through his body armor and tearing his chest open. McElroy screamed as the baldricks fell on him, tearing him apart and stuffing meat from his body into their mouths. Then the grenade went off and he, along with the baldrick who had been holding it, died.

Gerry Links heard the screams and explosion and knew that he was now in charge of what was left of the squad. The building they had been defending backed on to another with a narrow alley down the side. That lead into the divided highway that ran through the center of Hit and, hopefully too the open ground the other side. He turned and hosed out fire from his M16 then he and his men dropped flat as an automatic grenade launcher thumped out a burst from the buildings opposite.

“Down the alley fast, the grenadier will keep them back.” They were being pushed back, certainly, but they were bleeding the baldricks at every step. The time to fight it out, room to room would come later. And that, Links thought, would be a bloody day. Links fired another quick burst and saw a baldrick flinch. The M16s might not be killing them but they could hurt. Off to his left, he heard screams, human screams, was it the grenadier who’d held on to give his squad cover? Links didn’t know and didn’t have time to think about it. He and his men emerged from the semi-shadow of the alley and saw the most welcome sight of their lives. A Bradley was sitting on the road, its turret trained on the alley they had just come from. They could guess what was coming and scattered to either side. There was a rasping burst from the chain gun and this time the screams were baldrick. M16s may be ineffective but 25mm APHE was not.

“In the back fast.” The Bradley commander snapped the order out. Links and his men piled into the back and the ramp closed behind them. They were safe at last, behind armor.

“Where we going?”

“Defense Perimeter Delta. The other side of the clearing. We’re holding there. No more falling back.”

“Just how the hell are we supposed to do that? These 16’s ain’t worth shit against a baldrick.”

“You’ll get sacks of grenades and AT-4s issued when we get back to your position. And M72s. Once we’re in Delta, we’ll do it Stalingrad style. Room to room.

Headquarters, Randi Institute of Pneumatology, The Pentagon, Arlington, VA
“Do you believe her?”

“If I’m in the same room as her, probably.”

Randi chuckled. There had been some discrete experiments going on. Put a subject in the same room as Lugasharmanaska, measure their initial reaction to the succubus and then watch as that changed. Their prejudice started to soften within five minutes and by 30 minutes at most, they were friendly. “What do you think? Mind control?”

“Can’t be. We know roughly why their mind control works, they have the ability to entangle pathways in our brains using a bio-generated electrical field as a carrier wave. Your work with Julie and kitten shows we can do the same only we can’t generate the bio-electric field as a carrier. We also know that electrically conductive headgear blocks out the signal. Humiliating that isn’t it. For years people who were being persecuted by demons tried to warn us and tell us how to block the signals and we laughed at them. Ridiculed them, then locked them up and doped them to the eyeballs. The tinfoil beanie became a symbol of cranks and nut-cases – and all along they were right. Anyway, we’ve all been scrupulous about wearing our tinfoil beanies yet Lugasharmanaska gets the same reactions every time. Must be something else. We’ll keep trying until we get there.”

“Nicely switched away from the subject Robert. Now, do you believe her?”

Robert O’Shea thought for a second. “No. That stuff about breeding with humans can’t be true. We’re different species and different species can’t breed together, that’s a basic definition. The question is why is she lying? And if she is, why don’t we just hand her over to Doctor Surlethe and let him get some real information from her.”

“She might not be lying Robert. Just because she isn’t telling us the truth doesn’t mean that she’s lying. She may honestly believe that what she is telling us is true. It may be true, its just that we don’t understand what she is saying.” Randi paused. “I’ve had that with people who honestly believed they had psychic abilities. They were so convinced they were telling the truth that they just couldn’t believe there were other explanations. Parents were the worst. They got the idea their child was ‘special’ in some way, and which parents don’t believe that, and couldn’t accept that there were rational reasons why the kids were getting the results they were. We had one little girl whose parents honestly believed she had X-ray vision, even when we filmed her moving her head as she read a book ‘blindfolded’. Once we had sealed off her normal vision, her ‘ability’ stopped dead. And don’t get me started on dowsers.

“Look, I’m a conjuror, not a scientist but I’ll say this. Luga’s given us something to work with. It may be true, it may not be, but its something we can test. We have a theory from her, we can test that theory against reality and come up with the disconnects. Then we can learn by explaining those disconnects. And the first disconnect is how everybody feels warm and fuzzy towards Lugasharmanaska when she is, quite literally, a demon from hell.”

Randi stopped and knocked on a door. There was a mumbled ‘Come-in’ from inside.

“Norman, how are you settling in? And how do your cats like the Pentagon?”

“They’re getting overfed already. And I didn’t know the Secretary of State likes cats.”

“That’s a well-kept Washington secret. Did all your stuff get here safely?”

“Sure did, I’m getting it set up now. Any chance of meeting Lugasharmanaska?”

“Not at the moment, you can watch her but we’re trying to keep a limit on who actually sees her. She seems to have an uncanny effect on people around her.”

“I don’t see why; I’ve seen her pictures. She looks like something out of a nightmare. But then given the habits of the Succubi, I suppose she should look gross.”

“What do you mean Norman?”

“Succubi are supposed to mate with humans to collect male sperm. Then mate with their male equivalents, the Incubi and transfer that sperm to them. Incubi then mate with human females and impregnate them with that sperm. I guess that’s about as close to a dictionary definition of yukkiness as we’re ever going to get.”

Randi turned to O’Shea who was standing in the door with his mouth hanging open. “Well, it is a different dimension from ours, Robert. But that might explain how the Nephilim Lugasharmanaska was talking about could arise. They’re not hybrid human-demons, they’re corrupted humans somehow. Score one for the Succubus.”

“I’d rather not. The thought of waking up next to that thing is just about the most horrible thought I can imagine.” O’Shea paused for a second. “Except waking up next to my ex-wife I guess. Thank’s Norman, those were mental pictures I could have done without. My next week’s sleep is likely to be permanently ruined.”

“I aim to please. Doctor Randi…”

“It’s James, Norman. And I’ve never been any sort of Doctor. You want to be formal, you could call me The Amazing Randi if you like, but James will do just fine.” Randi gave Baines a gentle grandfatherly smile.

“James, where are we going from here?”

“Lugasharmanaska gave us some clues on how to open a portal to hell. I’m going to get my people together and we’re going to try it. If it works, score two for the Succubus, if it doesn’t we’ll learn from finding out why. By the way, spread the word, Doctor Surlethe is on his way to Baghdad. The Army is collecting corpses of baldricks for him but the Air Force won’t fly them over here. Dead baldricks decompose pretty fast and the smell is dreadful. Even through a body bag so the Air Force boys won’t have their nice clean transports fouled up by them. So, if dead baldricks won’t come to Surlethe, Surlethe will have to go to the dead baldricks.”

Randi left and went down to the corridor. Outside the conference room his team was using as a laboratory, four armed Marines were on guard. That was new but when Randi went inside, he could see why. The room was stacked with packages wrapped in green plastic. Small packages, rectangular in shape, about two pounds each Randi guessed. He had a sudden premonition that had nothing whatsoever to do with pseudo-science that smoking in this room would be a very bad idea. There was other equipment around, boxes, odd shapes and two vicious looking rifles.

“Sir, General Schatten will be with us immediately Sir.” Randi nodded. In the background, he could hear music playing, Sheryl Crowe’s voice sounding incongruous amongst the electronics, weapons and piles of high explosive.

These, in the days when Heaven is failing.
The days when earths foundations fled
They follow their military calling
And now they fight to save our dead

And now they fight to save our dead.

Their shoulders hold the sky suspended
They stand and earth’s foundations hold
Whom God abandoned these defended
And they saved the sum of things today.

And they saved the sum of things today.


“I hope you don’t mind Sir.” kitten was stretched out on a couch, her boyfriend sitting beside her. “Some music helps me relax.

“No problem kitten. You know what’s going to happen here?” kitten shook her head.

“This room is shielded against electromagnetic radiation so anything we pick up is you linking to hell.” The scientist spoke carefully. When he’d got his PhD (a highly classified one as it happened, in electromagnetic propagation which was a euphemism for some of the more spectacular aspects of electronic warfare), he’d never envisaged working on anything like this. “We’re running those signals through a massive amplifier and blasting them out. According to our information, we push enough power into the transmission and the visions you can experience will be converted to a real portal that we can step though into hell itself. And step out of to get back here.”

He was interrupted by the military members of the group snapping to attention. General Schatten had entered with an Army Major in tow. He returned the salutes and looked around at the room with satisfaction. “I see the Czechs came through with the Semtex then. This is Major Warhol, he’ll be training the A-teams who’ll be organizing the insurgency in Hell. Major, this is the team trying to get through for your people.”

“Thank you general.” The expression on Warhol’s face was one of stunned disbelief. “If I may summarize my mission, I and my people are going to use an inter-dimensional rift created by a masochistic paranoid schizophrenic transsexual acting on information received from a turncoat succubus to invade Hell, start an insurgency with the aim of destabilizing the whole set-up there, subverting the rule of Satan and eventually organizing an internal coup to overthrow him.”

“That’s it in a nutshell Major.” Schatten’s voice was amused by the horrified expression on the Major’s countenance.

“When I selected Special Forces at the ‘Point, they told me there would be days like this.”

“What did they recommend Major?”

“Cyanide Sir.’ A laugh ran around the room.

“People, we’re ready to get started.” The scientist was trying desperately to get back into control. “Once the portal is open, we don’t know how long we can keep it open so we have to move fast. General?”

“Yeah, when it opens, everybody start throwing stuff through as fast as you can. Just throw it through, leave the people the other side to catch and store it. One question Bob, why can’t we keep the portal open? The baldricks don’t seem to have any trouble.”

“Imagine it like this General, a very fast flowing stream with a pair of old saloon doors, the kind that swing both ways in it. The baldricks upstream, us downstream. They can push the doors open easily enough but to close them they have to pull the doors against the flow. To open them we have to push against the flow but that same flow will be constantly trying to push them shut again. kitten, I think there’s going to an incredible strain on you once the portal opens, even with electronic boost, you’re fighting forces we have no way of understanding. Don’t worry about how long you can hold on for, just do the best you can. If you can give any warning when you’re going to lose it, please try but if you can’t, don’t worry. Remember, you’re a unique resource at this time, you’re worth more than pretty much anything else we have.” kitten nodded. “Right people, let’s get going.”
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-03-02 12:22am

Awesome bit, though it seemed a trifle short. I wonder how long it will take them to figure out that its pheremones that give the Succubus her 'magnetic' personality.
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Post by Academia Nut » 2008-03-02 12:37am

Awesome as always, although I agree that it is perhaps a wee bit short. We are all of course eagerly waiting to see how the battles in Iraq will turn out. Will the airborne cavalry arrive soon enough to save the survivors of Hit? Will the demons break as the butcher bill for urban warfare ramps up and the rest of their forces get smashed by the mechanized groups? Will Abigor learn the importance of air superiority and why the demons are going to have a bitch of a time ever obtaining it?

Oh, and we totally need some of the budding artists on this site to come up with a concept album for this story. I can totally see a small album being devoted just to the messengers (or a long song) in universe. You could have oh... a sort of Top Gunish piece for the Americans encounter with the Harpy messengers, either a low key creeping doom sort of thing or something that samples Rule Britannia for the submarine bit with the Leviathan, and definitely something bombastic and completely Russian for the behemoth fight.

Also, it would be amusing to subject Luga to human pop culture. Imagine if they 'let' her into the breakroom to play Guitar Hero, obviously seeing demonic reflex times and learning capacity, and then seeing her response if say "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" comes up. That or showing her some fantasy or sci-fi, see how her mind tries to interpret such out of context material.

Two guys playing Warhammer 40k, Space Marines and Chaos of course, would be amusing to see her reaction to demons being mowed down, plus if she did get away it would give totally unrealistic views on our capacities and tactics, to say nothing of planning methods, providing a nifty bit of misinformation. Of course since GW are litigous spam-happy bastards over that sort of thing, I don't think even fair use would allow that in there. A pity, because I'm sure in universe they would have to haul ass on the metaplot now that their Chaos lines are probably the least liked series now that people are actually under threat of eternal damnation from the forces of Hell. It would just be another way of showing the massive cultural shifts taking place.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-03-02 01:06am

JBG wrote:"Yeah, it might have to be much slower-firing regular autocannon."

That might not be too bad a thing Your Grace. The rate of fire of the M61 is beyond what is required as the Harpies aren't that big or tough. They need as much as anything to be set alight then their biology finishes the work. The rate of fire of the rotary cannon means that often a target will be simply blown in two etc by the force of the number of shells far beyond what is required in a situation that may be not only target rich but target saturated. A couple of non-dud body hits should be sufficient.

With modern fire control such "regular autocannon" would be much more economical in ammo usage and may be able to take out more harpies.

I note the comment about naval F-111s replacing in some way F-14s. They would certainly return a long distance strike platform to the USN. Our F-111s are fitted for, together with guided and iron bombs and attack missles, Sidewinders and Harpoon. Perhaps the digital pigs could be rewired to carry AIM-120s or the AIR-120s that Stuart referred to. Better probably to refurbish the F-14s for the carriers and keep F-111s for strikes into the very gaping maw of hell. Thinking about naval strike, where are all of the old A-6s and what shape are they in? I'll check the AMARC site Stuart linked to but they were one good bomb truck and worth considering.

A few thoughts about US aircraft otherwise:

- ramp up production of F-16s, F-15Es and F-22s as well as F-18E/Fs.
- restart B-1 production.
- restart if possible A-10 production.
- perhaps one old type reintroduced, F-84 or F-86. For the latter, the Australian Sabre was the best with the Avon engine and 4x30 mm cannon, cannon big enough for a decent HE warhead.
- ramp up MV-22 production ( as conventional helicopters are vulnerable to harpies ).
- ramp up C-17 production. As well as its other virtues this aircraft should be able to deliver MOABs to the most deserving!
Well, we've got the F-111 production line, too, that's where the comment about naval F-111s came from.


Stuart: Very nice update. It seems like the cost in such fighting is indeed proving to be very high.
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Post by JBG » 2008-03-02 01:10am

Interesting chapter Stuart.

Standard infantry, if well trained and well equipped, have limited effectiveness against the demons due to the demons numbers and size/toughness. Otherwise such infantry, if not well trained or equipped, is just demon food. The beowulf solution cannot come fast enough for the 10th Mountain.

Rearming with grenades and AT-4s is a good idea. Did many more claymores come up with that supply convoy? If so claymores could be set in closely ordered rows across the clearing. Has anyone thought about re-configuring the mine clearance equipment that fires explosive "ropes" across minefields?

I know the USMC likes combat shotguns but are there many about? At close range a solid slug would give a GI enough time to pull and throw a grenade.

As for the insertion into the realms of Hell of SF, this has all the hallmarks of a quick and dirty operation. Great potential but every chance of failure. It feels like things that went on in the 50s and 60s - the technology was clearly not absolutely ready but the thing just HAD to be tested.

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Post by PainRack » 2008-03-02 01:12am

Speaking of urban combat..... what about spectral superpowers? In any number of ghost hauntings and demon visitations, we seen incidents of people feeling that they're being watched, supernatural telekinesis, poltergeist incidents. In terms of demons, they had supernatural agility, the ability to cloak themselves and other powers.
One can imagine the presence of special forces demons that have these powers. They might have the power to use strong EM fields that will cause hallucinations, disturb their emotional stability. Exude stinks that will cause people to gag and vomit, physically incapacitating them, also inducing fear. Perhaps via proper stimulation via ultrasound and lights, they will also have the ability to use hypnosis on people, exhibiting limited possession. Telekinesis might be via magnetism. Shockwaves? The ability to expel air or create blastwave in their body and then has a controlled release.

After all, we already have some theoretical concepts for these weapons now. Sonic weapons, stink grenades to disperse crowds, CS cannisters. Their equivalent of special forces would probably have been demons raised and trained to either keep demons in line via fear or used to prepare worlds for harvest where God isn't there.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-03-02 01:27am

JBG wrote:Interesting chapter Stuart.

Standard infantry, if well trained and well equipped, have limited effectiveness against the demons due to the demons numbers and size/toughness. Otherwise such infantry, if not well trained or equipped, is just demon food. The beowulf solution cannot come fast enough for the 10th Mountain.

Rearming with grenades and AT-4s is a good idea. Did many more claymores come up with that supply convoy? If so claymores could be set in closely ordered rows across the clearing. Has anyone thought about re-configuring the mine clearance equipment that fires explosive "ropes" across minefields?

I know the USMC likes combat shotguns but are there many about? At close range a solid slug would give a GI enough time to pull and throw a grenade.

As for the insertion into the realms of Hell of SF, this has all the hallmarks of a quick and dirty operation. Great potential but every chance of failure. It feels like things that went on in the 50s and 60s - the technology was clearly not absolutely ready but the thing just HAD to be tested.

Jonathan
Oh, there are definitely SOME shotguns which could take down demons permanently with a single hit from a slug. I am just worried that the only shotgun capable of doing so is an Ithaca Mag-10 Roadblocker.
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Post by Academia Nut » 2008-03-02 01:38am

Actually, from what I understand of ballistics, the M16s may be over specialized against humans. Aren't most modern cartridges designed to send a small, fast bullet at a target to penetrate armour while wounding rather than outright killing, as a wounded man ties up more resources than a dead one? Against the baldricks they're probably suffering from overpenetration and not causing enough internal damage. A switch over to some of the older, larger calibres would probably give a marked increase in killing capacity as the baldricks as most bullets are already probably overkill against their natural armour, while there pretty much isn't such a thing as overkill against these bastards (inefficient expenditure of resources yes, but overkill probably not).

Would a switch over to 7.62mm be a good idea under these circumstances considering that there would still be a lot of guns fitted for that size and the production capacity would be present, or would something different work better?
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Post by fb111a » 2008-03-02 01:43am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Beowulf wrote:
KlavoHunter wrote: And on the upside, you can rack just about any plane up with enough AIM-9s to blow an enormous hole in a cloud of Harpies.
More likely is something like the F-86D SaberDog. Give it a bunch of aerial rockets in a pod. Give it a couple guns to work after the rockets are gone, and with dealing with singular harpies. Stick a simple radar on there, so it can have some night fighting capability, or better yet, a link from AWACS, which can stay far out of range of the harpies.
That's a pretty good idea right there. The simple fact is that the USA, even now, has a huge excess in production of combat vehicles in our automotive factories; most "foreign" cars, particularly Toyota for instance, are built more or less entirely in the United States. By completely eliminating production of new civilian cars we can certainly not only max out our capacity to build armoured vehicles but also task a factor or two with churning out 10 - 12,000 Thunderstreaks. Possibly 20,000, depending on how long the war lasts.


As another aside, I believe we have about 37 preserved Tomcat frames + aggressor squadron training F-14As (to simulate the Iranians) + the fact that DM had only chopped up 28 of the 165 remaining Tomcats there by mid-2007. There are probably enough Tomcat airframes left that we can return 100 or so to service, I'd think, maybe even 120.
How about an F-86H+ instead?

It comes with four 20mm cannon, you can stick Hydra rocket pods (four to six) under the wings, and you can use the Avon engine - which already works with the Sabre fuselage.

EDIT: And, as another benefit, it means that you can load ammo for the 20mm guns on the F-16/F-15/F/A-18 into those guns, too. Less logistical trouble.

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Post by Vehrec » 2008-03-02 01:53am

What I'm waiting for is the B-2 variant that mounts modified EW gear that let's it do the Invisibility trick on anything within a 20 mile radius with line of sight. A "Somebody else's problem" field as it were, so powerful that the pilots need to wear specialized counter-gear in order to remember the concept of a B-2 and read the gauges.

And while we do have a few larger caliber weapons, they're in shorter supply than you would hope. The M-14 also has the disadvantage of being a bitch to carry ammo for just because of the size and mass of it's clips. On the other hand, it's a simple enough design to turn out. While we haven't seen much of it in use so far, I'm surprised that every able bodied man of age in Hit hasn't turned up with an AK-47. Or are they holding back on purpose with their Tin Foil Hats on to hit the Demons from unexpected angles later on? Any way you slice it, these guys should be around somewhere, ready to 'DURKA DURKA' any demon who looks at their sister/daughter/wife funny.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-03-02 02:34am

fb111a wrote:[

How about an F-86H+ instead?

It comes with four 20mm cannon, you can stick Hydra rocket pods (four to six) under the wings, and you can use the Avon engine - which already works with the Sabre fuselage.

EDIT: And, as another benefit, it means that you can load ammo for the 20mm guns on the F-16/F-15/F/A-18 into those guns, too. Less logistical trouble.
The only reason we're discussing an F-84 is because a complete tooling set exists for it.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-03-02 02:37am

Academia Nut wrote:Actually, from what I understand of ballistics, the M16s may be over specialized against humans. Aren't most modern cartridges designed to send a small, fast bullet at a target to penetrate armour while wounding rather than outright killing, as a wounded man ties up more resources than a dead one? Against the baldricks they're probably suffering from overpenetration and not causing enough internal damage. A switch over to some of the older, larger calibres would probably give a marked increase in killing capacity as the baldricks as most bullets are already probably overkill against their natural armour, while there pretty much isn't such a thing as overkill against these bastards (inefficient expenditure of resources yes, but overkill probably not).

Would a switch over to 7.62mm be a good idea under these circumstances considering that there would still be a lot of guns fitted for that size and the production capacity would be present, or would something different work better?
Rifle, .45-70 Government is the way to go. You can easily get a 4 - 5 round magazine on a rifle workably, if it's a bit of a stretch. But that's for long-range work. Close in? Shoguns. 12 gauge minimum, 12 gauge magnum preferably. If we could mass produce 10 gauge magnums, that would be sweet--a slug from one would be a kill to any baldrick footsoldier (the Ithaca Roadblocker was designed to disable the engine block of a light truck), and the ammunition is actually reasonably available. Production of the gun, however, rather less so, let alone a militarized version.
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Post by Academia Nut » 2008-03-02 02:45am

Close in? Shoguns
Wow, considering the katana wanking on less enlightened forums, that is a hilarious typo.

However, are you advocating soldiers carrying two weapons and sets of ammo, which would cut into the capacity to carry both, or having some soldiers carry shotguns while others carry rifles? Because having two sets of weapons seems like a logistics and tactical problem for various reasons. Also considering the numbers the baldricks come in, would it not be sensible to try and minimize the number of times a soldier must reload? There are obviously a lot of details that must be worked out to get the ideal balance of range, rate of fire, and killing capacity and an all in one gun might not be able to do that, but it would seem that minimizing the number of weapons systems deployed would be a good idea.

But yeah, I can see the combat shotgun really come into its own now that there is a pressing and massive need for something that can put down a charging eight foot tall lightning throwing monster with a single shot. While I doubt the overwanked AA-12 would become the immediate choice, I can see something along those lines with a high rate of fire and an enormous punch becoming very popular very quickly.
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Post by Sea Skimmer » 2008-03-02 04:25am

I think I’d have died in McElroy’s place too… seeing a big monster catch a hand grenade would be just way too much to process on a normal day. The Bradley crew might want to consider some offensive squishing
Beowulf wrote:Actually, the M3 machine gun isn't very dissimilar to the M2, which is still in production, I believe.
Both are still in production, FN restarted building M3s a couple years ago for use on helicopters. This happened because the US military lost faith in the 7.62mm gatling gun, which doesn’t out range RPGs and doesn’t work after you've been shot down and have to fight to the death at your crash site.

Anyway, the F-84 has four machine guns in the nose wrapped around the air intake and two in the wing roots; you might not be able to mount anything better then a pair of 20mm M39s in the nose as upgraded firepower. The M61 is totally out of the question. A slight chance exist though that a pair of 30mm guns could be made to fit, and most single barrel 30mm weapons will trash even a 20mm galting for weight of explosive placed on target. Having space for the ammo would be the main problem.

Gunpods suck, forgot about hitting anything in air combat with one. Even against ground targets accuracy is insufficient for hitting point targets like tanks.
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Post by KlavoHunter » 2008-03-02 06:33am

Academia Nut wrote:But yeah, I can see the combat shotgun really come into its own now that there is a pressing and massive need for something that can put down a charging eight foot tall lightning throwing monster with a single shot. While I doubt the overwanked AA-12 would become the immediate choice, I can see something along those lines with a high rate of fire and an enormous punch becoming very popular very quickly.
I figure the miniature-grenade rounds that the AA-12 is so popularized by can be used in any 12-gauge shotgun - after all, versatility in ammunition IS pretty much the point of having shotguns around in the modern military.

And, of course, a Baldrick will go down with a copper slug in his gut like a good boy. :D
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Post by Setzer » 2008-03-02 07:13am

“If I may summarize my mission, I and my people are going to use an inter-dimensional rift created by a masochistic paranoid schizophrenic transsexual acting on information received from a turncoat succubus to invade Hell, start an insurgency with the aim of destabilizing the whole set-up there, subverting the rule of Satan and eventually organizing an internal coup to overthrow him.”
This sounds like the plot of a Dr Who episode. Right up there with "A body possessing werewolf tries to bite Queen Victoria and rule the British empire, but is destroyed by a telescope turned into a laser beam by a diamond and the power of the moon.
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Post by [R_H] » 2008-03-02 07:26am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Oh, there are definitely SOME shotguns which could take down demons permanently with a single hit from a slug. I am just worried that the only shotgun capable of doing so is an Ithaca Mag-10 Roadblocker.
It would be very bad if that were the case, seeing how the magazine can only hold 2 shells, and it's 11.5 pounds with a >20" barrel Source
Another large bore shotgun (which is lighter than the Roadblocker) is the KS-23 shotgun, which has a 4 gauge/23mm barrel. It was primarily intended to be an anti-riot shotgun (interestingly it's manufactured from 23mm cannon barrels which were rejected) but it can also fire the "Barrikade" cartridge, capable of destroying an engine block at 100m. Like the Roadblocker, the magazine is fairly small, 3 rounds, but it "only" weighs in at 8.4 pounds. There are also carbine and a box fed bullpup variants. Source

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Post by KlavoHunter » 2008-03-02 07:34am

Setzer wrote:This sounds like the plot of a Dr Who episode. Right up there with "A body possessing werewolf tries to bite Queen Victoria and rule the British empire, but is destroyed by a telescope turned into a laser beam by a diamond and the power of the moon.
I hope you have a copyright for that, so you can get paid when the most amazing new episode of Dr. Who is broadcast over the Beeb...


Fake Edit: Expelliarmus!
"The 4th Earl of Hereford led the fight on the bridge, but he and his men were caught in the arrow fire. Then one of de Harclay's pikemen, concealed beneath the bridge, thrust upwards between the planks and skewered the Earl of Hereford through the anus, twisting the head of the iron pike into his intestines. His dying screams turned the advance into a panic."'

SDNW4: The Sultanate of Klavostan

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Post by [R_H] » 2008-03-02 07:54am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Rifle, .45-70 Government is the way to go. You can easily get a 4 - 5 round magazine on a rifle workably, if it's a bit of a stretch. But that's for long-range work. Close in? Shoguns. 12 gauge minimum, 12 gauge magnum preferably. If we could mass produce 10 gauge magnums, that would be sweet--a slug from one would be a kill to any baldrick footsoldier (the Ithaca Roadblocker was designed to disable the engine block of a light truck), and the ammunition is actually reasonably available. Production of the gun, however, rather less so, let alone a militarized version.
For the rifle, there's always the .50 Beowulf or the .458 SOCOM. Both of which just require the upper reciever of the M-16/M-4 to be switched out, and the USGI 30 round magazines can hold .50 Beowulf single stacked with a modification to the magazine lips. According to the SOCOM manufacturor's site, the rounds are compatible with the USGI 30 round magazines (which will hold 10 rounds .458 SOCOM) without any modifications.

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Post by Robo Jesus » 2008-03-02 12:18pm

Stuart wrote:“Succubi are supposed to mate with humans to collect male sperm. Then mate with their male equivalents, the Incubi and transfer that sperm to them. Incubi then mate with human females and impregnate them with that sperm. I guess that’s about as close to a dictionary definition of yukkiness as we’re ever going to get.”

Randi turned to O’Shea who was standing in the door with his mouth hanging open. “Well, it is a different dimension from ours, Robert. But that might explain how the Nephilim Lugasharmanaska was talking about could arise.
This makes even less sense than daemons outright breeding with humanity. First off, mutations in human sperm occur when the sperm is produced inside the testicals. Secondly, exposure to radiation and the like causes the biological and chemical bonds in the sperm to break down, damaging if not outright destroying the sperm.

The issue with the people in hell is literally matter is appearing in place of energy. The difference therefore is that while in one instance energy is literally becoming matter (the souls of the damned taking form), there is still no logical reason for the sperm to mutate or change as you are describing here.
This is sickening... You sound like chapters from a self-help booklet! Prepare yourselves!

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Post by JN1 » 2008-03-02 12:55pm

An excellent chapter, Stuart. I do feel sorry for those guys in the 10th Mountain, though I suppose every soldier killed is a potential recruit to the insurgency in Hell if the SF team going in can find a way to locate them.
It does occur to me that there are rather a lot of human soldiers currently in Hell, including SF and elite forces such as paras and booties. Humanity could have a pretty serious potential Fifth Column in Hell.

Looking forward to 20.
I hope you have a copyright for that, so you can get paid when the most amazing new episode of Dr. Who is broadcast over the Beeb...
Been done I'm afraid. Queen Vic founded Torchwood in that episode and awarded the Doctor and Rose a knighthood and damehood respectively.

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Post by FedRebel » 2008-03-02 01:08pm

Robo Jesus wrote: This makes even less sense than daemons outright breeding with humanity. First off, mutations in human sperm occur when the sperm is produced inside the testicals. Secondly, exposure to radiation and the like causes the biological and chemical bonds in the sperm to break down, damaging if not outright destroying the sperm.


What about a virus?

Incubui probably produce a virus that alters the sperms genetic code

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Post by Robo Jesus » 2008-03-02 01:24pm

FedRebel wrote:
Robo Jesus wrote: This makes even less sense than daemons outright breeding with humanity. First off, mutations in human sperm occur when the sperm is produced inside the testicals. Secondly, exposure to radiation and the like causes the biological and chemical bonds in the sperm to break down, damaging if not outright destroying the sperm.


What about a virus?

Incubui probably produce a virus that alters the sperms genetic code
The virus would have to created to specifically deal with infecting the gonad tissues within the testes before fertilization, as the sperm itself does not have the needed requirements for a virus to infect the genetics of the sperm itself. This process would cut out the need of any sort of middle man, leaving no reason for the Succubi or Incubui to be involved to begin with.

There is the possibility of any sort of virus using a protein bond to attach itself to male sperm and using the male sperm to carry it into the human egg, but viruses are the worst conduits possible for trying to change the genetic codes of a developing zygote, as the virus itself would have to destroy the cells it infects to create more copies of itself to spread itself out and to the needed locations within the host cells to ensure that any implanted genetic data survives. It's a process that is far less likely to kill the host if done on an adult subject than if done on a developing zygote.

As I said, what was written as an explanation makes no sense. As an explanation, in terms of biology, chemical reactions, and genetics, it fails. Badly.
This is sickening... You sound like chapters from a self-help booklet! Prepare yourselves!

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-03-02 01:37pm

[R_H] wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Rifle, .45-70 Government is the way to go. You can easily get a 4 - 5 round magazine on a rifle workably, if it's a bit of a stretch. But that's for long-range work. Close in? Shoguns. 12 gauge minimum, 12 gauge magnum preferably. If we could mass produce 10 gauge magnums, that would be sweet--a slug from one would be a kill to any baldrick footsoldier (the Ithaca Roadblocker was designed to disable the engine block of a light truck), and the ammunition is actually reasonably available. Production of the gun, however, rather less so, let alone a militarized version.
For the rifle, there's always the .50 Beowulf or the .458 SOCOM. Both of which just require the upper reciever of the M-16/M-4 to be switched out, and the USGI 30 round magazines can hold .50 Beowulf single stacked with a modification to the magazine lips. According to the SOCOM manufacturor's site, the rounds are compatible with the USGI 30 round magazines (which will hold 10 rounds .458 SOCOM) without any modifications.
At the range where .50 Beowulf would be effective--remember that's a pistol cartridge--just use a damned shotgun loaded with slugs. The .45-70 Government is for firing at Baldricks at hundreds of meters while still remaining something you can put into a conveniently man portable rifle.

Well, we can standardize logistics across the two calibres while getting rid of any machineguns lighter than the M2. That would help a lot; we already use multiple calibres at that level as it stands, 5.56mm and 7.62mm. We can saw off the barrel of the shotgun, or more precisely just build it with a very short barrel, since it's there for extremely close quarters fighting only, which will save some weight, as will a specifically military design. Semi-automatic heavy shotguns don't kick so dearly as the non-semi-autos. I'm not sure why rate of fire would suffer so much in terms of your potential to kill; remember, we're talking dum-dum bullets in .45-70 here, no normal rounds. That means a single shot should be able to take down a Baldrick reliably. Which means in your magazine you have the capability to kill, say, 5 baldricks. Right now you can empty an entire magazine of 5.56mm and kill one. If you're lucky.
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