Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

[Surlethe]

My question is would it have worked...it seems logical to me...but others here with way more experience and knowledge seem to think it would have been a disaster.

It would have worked; but, as mentioned, Petraeus is playing as few cards in his hand as possible. If you can utterly crush the enemy with artillery and tanks, no need to bomb him. If you can crush him with precision-bombing, no need to carpet-bomb. If you can crush him with carpet-bombing, no need for nuclear weapons.

[Shroom Man 777]

They are dealing with an unknown foe. It's best to be cautious.

[tveditor]

Is there any value in wiping out the enemy so quickly that it might give hell pause for thought. If a major army was wiped out in a few hours of one sided combat with few or no survivors might that discourage follow up attacks?

It is fairly obvious the the average demon could defeat most humans in hand to hand combat. Could a special forces trained solider (Like the US Seals) defeat a demon in hand to hand?

[Surlethe]

Is there any value in wiping out the enemy so quickly that it might give hell pause for thought. If a major army was wiped out in a few hours of one sided combat with few or no survivors might that discourage follow up attacks?

That is what happened: the combined forces on the flanks entirely routed the northern and southern enveloping forces with few casualties. But keep in mind that Abigor's force is certainly not a major army; it is a smidgeon of the major force hell can, and will, field.

It is fairly obvious the the average demon could defeat most humans in hand to hand combat. Could a special forces trained solider (Like the US Seals) defeat a demon in hand to hand?

Almost certainly not. It took six people to take down a demon by surprise in hell, and they were armed with metal spikes.

[PainRack]

One wonders.... How many other countries will become involved in Iraq? After all, the humans don't know that other portals can't be opened and barring that, it will be more than likely that minor powers will hold back forces.

Russian, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Britain is already involved, and Australia will most likely pitch in. But what about Canada, Germany and France? Nigeria and South Africia?

[DarthShady]

I am sure Bosnia will send its explosives experts.

[brianeyci]

One wonders.... How many other countries will become involved in Iraq? After all, the humans don't know that other portals can't be opened and barring that, it will be more than likely that minor powers will hold back forces.

Russian, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Britain is already involved, and Australia will most likely pitch in. But what about Canada, Germany and France? Nigeria and South Africia?

This is a big game for big players. If a single legion of Baldrick showed up in Ottawa, there'd be nothing to stop them unless the Coyotes were set up with their chainguns or the Leopard II's are home. Even then there'd be huge manpower shortages. Some nations don't even have that much for heavy equipment. Particularly, outside the Soviet sphere and the US, there's a critical lack of air defense. And even in the US as far as I know Linebacker is already gone.

I honestly don't expect small nations to receive more than a footnote in the story, if only because Stuart has limited space. But practically, smaller nations would want to ensure their own survival and sending an expeditionary force of half their military doesn't make sense when the military's tiny to start.

Smaller nations also rely on chartered AN-124 or commercial shipping. They are probably busy as shit with Comrade Putin's own forces, or too slow.

[Typhonis 1]

The flanks have fallen....the center is about to connect with the American corps......Do I seer another Cannae with the baldricks playing the part of the Romans?

[brianeyci]

I think you got it reversed Typhonis... Abigor is the budding Hannibal, extending his line like Hannibal's army with a weak center in an attempt to outflank his opponent.

Problem is Scipio has seen Hannibal fight before. Worse -- this Scipio, Petraeus, has seen a hundred Hannibals and knows everything Abigor could try. And even worse, this is a set piece battle and all the pieces are on the human side. If a side's down a queen, a rook, a knight, nine pawns, put Kasparov in and he'll probably still lose.

More like Battle of Zama.

It's worse than pitting horse archers versus heavy infantry. Modern tanks can move and fire on the run, and disengage at will. The mobility of mechanized forces is insane, and there's no way Abigor can outflank anything unless the Americans allow it (perhaps due to being occupied somewhere else and not giving a flying fuck.) The Americans are depending on mines, barbed wire, terrain to win so I don't see them charging out until the last moment, and even then they'll probably leave the Iranians to do the dirty work just like the first time.

I wonder if Mongols could beat a Hell legion.

[gtg947h]

IIf a side's down a queen, a rook, a knight, nine pawns, put Kasparov in and he'll probably still lose.

What version of chess do you play where you get nine pawns?

[Academia Nut]

That's just how screwed Abigor is, that he is somehow, inexplicably, down nine out of eight pawns.

Worse for the demons is the long term prospects. Their logistical situation is screwed in comparison to the humans, as while they don't seem to have the complex supply lines of a modern army to foul, they don't seem to be producing any more soldiers and moving their militias up to the front lines weakens their control over their slaves, making it right for rebellion. In the meantime the humans are ramping up for total war, none of the major players are concerned with actually having to maintain control over their populations (although defence is a major factor). So as demon numbers dwindle human military forces will increase.

The worst bit is raw numbers though. If you include civilian casualties, even if the demons have a 10:1 kill ratio against the humans (unlikely) they still lose, although the world will be quite empty afterwards as the human population will have probably fallen below a billion.

As for the minor countries, I can see them becoming the parts suppliers for the big players. For a "middle power" like Canada, we can still probably leverage our natural resources into supplying the States and other countries, like we did in WW2. We have a lot to offer for a country ranked 36 in population and 8 in economy.

[Surlethe]

I think you got it reversed Typhonis... Abigor is the budding Hannibal, extending his line like Hannibal's army with a weak center in an attempt to outflank his opponent.

On the lower level, it's reversed and Abigor is trying to outflank his opponent; on the theatre level, Abigor's flanking armies have both fallen and the Allied flanking forces have completely encircled Abigor's main force. There's no retreat for the demonic army.

[brianeyci]

You're right. But he did mention Cannae, which is a tactical level. And let's face it, demon armies will never have the option of retreat. An army is one flight of B-2's loaded with 80x500 lbs. bombs from annihilation. So unless we're going to call everything Battle of Cannae the details are a little important.

Then again the analogy isn't that strong to start with. Cannae had Hannibal with extremely strong flanks and a weak center. That's how far behind demon strategy and tactics are... they are so far behind their only strategy is mass in a huge mob and charge, and maybe keep the calvary for a charge as a silver bullet.

====

Scratch that... the demons open with a calvary charge. They don't even save their horse like Sea Skimmer mentioned earlier. I'm guessing the rhinolobsters don't have any armor on them and the demons aren't even using stirrups.

Imagine Tarth's great, great, great, (you get the point) grandson sitting astride a tough little steppe pony on the edge of some French meadow. He carries a recurved bow or a spear, and is probably wearing leather armor. If he carries a spear, it would be roughly six feet long and he would hold it in the middle, at the balance point. This gives him a striking range of eight feet, which is well outside the axe range of these European "freemen." He wears his hair long. We'll call him Barth the Evader.

Barth and his friends snort with excitement and bravado as they look at the unsuspecting French just outside a fortified town. They have done this before, a quick rush, surprise and speed overwhelming slow-footed soldiers, then rape, pillage and back to their camp. It has worked countless times.

Taking a deep breath, Barth charges with a piercing yell and swift kick in his pony's side. Clearing the woods, he sees woodsmen and armed guards alike running for their lives. He looks into gloom of the keep's entrance and abruptly pulls up and stops. Coming out of the entrance is the biggest horse he has ever seen, and it's wearing armor! A growing unease comes over Barth.

On this large horse is a large man, also wearing armor, but it's metal armor rather than the leather kind Barth has. It gets worse: this man is carrying the biggest spear Barth has ever seen. The French call it a couched lance and it's over ten feet long from its vamplate, the funnel shaped handle, to gleaming iron tip. He is carrying it under his arm (couched) at its end. This gives him a five-foot reach advantage over Barth's two pound lance. That is, if Barth were to stand and fight. However, this is not going to happen because Barth is now running for his life. Rapid retreat is a tradition Barth learned from his ancestors.

In full pursuit of Barth is a troop of fully armored, superbly trained, beautifully equipped, mounted warriors. These are the edge of Europe's weapon system, the shock troops of the seventh century. These are mounted knights. Chivalry has arrived and it isn't all poetry and fair ladies. These guys are professional killers. They will dominate European warfare for the next six hundred years.

Rhinolobsters are only impressive because of their biology, not due to any innovation by the demons. The demons aren't even at the medieval level; if they were they'd have full plate armor and potentially 25-30 foot lances given their size.

[NecronLord]

Why would they have lances? The bronze trident works as ray gun and would allow a devil to easily dominate a man with a lance.

[Crayz9000]

Why would they have lances? The bronze trident works as ray gun and would allow a devil to easily dominate a man with a lance.

Unfortunately for the demons, all the knight needs to do is ... well... stand on the ground... and his plate mail acts as a lightning rod.

That said, a grounded knight with a lance isn't terribly useful. Unless you could find some way to wire his and the horse's armor to the horseshoes...

[NecronLord]

Unfortunately for the demons, all the knight needs to do is ... well... stand on the ground... and his plate mail acts as a lightning rod.

Which... Negates most of the point of being a knight.

Never mind that actually getting into close combat with a demon is a death sentance. Especially given that the rhinolobsters will still be happily thundering along.

[Stuart Mackey]

Unfortunately for the demons, all the knight needs to do is ... well... stand on the ground... and his plate mail acts as a lightning rod.

Which... Negates most of the point of being a knight.

Err..no. English 'Knights' fought dismounted on a regular basis, using their lances as pikes, Agincourt is a good example. Moreover the armoured man at arms is at a significant advantage over unarmoured forces.

Never mind that actually getting into close combat with a demon is a death sentance. Especially given that the rhinolobsters will still be happily thundering along.

Thats the thing, the demon version of a mounted man at arms has a speed and weight/strength advantage.

[JBG]

The forthcoming battle for the centre or is it the final kesselschlacht for this demon army should be well worth waiting for, if not only for the human OOB. In a corps of 4 divisions two are light - 10th Mountain and 82nd Airborne.

Given how the demon infantry are bigger, faster and tougher than humans and in at times great numbers, 5.56 mm isn't going to cut it. It seems that 50 cal grenade launchers, GPMGs or for the brave combat shotguns are the least that an infantryman should be equipped with, let alone being under armour to protect against energy bolts and harpy attacks. Mechanised infantry seems to be the go.

With a bit of luck a concentrated demon attack on the lighter units could cause some consternation.

Stuart, in view of the killing fields presented by demon offensives, are IFVs etc being upgraded to pure gun platforms, eg a Bradley with twin 25 mm?

Jonathan

[Crayz9000]

...

Continuing on this note, just *how* effective are bronze broadswords and spears against steel plate mail? Not very, I'd guess.

[Stuart Mackey]

...

Continuing on this note, just *how* effective are bronze broadswords and spears against steel plate mail? Not very, I'd guess.

Your correct, not very. consider that plate armour went out of use because of the effectiveness of fire arms, and that properly made swords had little impact on plate should give you some indication. However not all armour types are made of steel, there is cloth as well as leather armour, and different weapons will work to varying degree's, or not at all, depending on what the sword was designed to work against.
Oh, its Plate or maile not plate mail, two different types of armour.

[Crayz9000]

I somehow get the feeling that a "knight in shining armor" is going to be almost as terrifying to a lone baldrick as the Iron Chariots are...

Of course, a massed group of them would still take him out, if only by pulling the armor off first.

[NecronLord]

Err..no. English 'Knights' fought dismounted on a regular basis, using their lances as pikes, Agincourt is a good example. Moreover the armoured man at arms is at a significant advantage over unarmoured forces.

And the principal role of a knight was heavy cavalry. English is one of the few European languages where the term knight doesn't literally come from horseman. Observe Ritter, Chevalier, etc.

Agincourt is (among other things) notable for the dismounted French being tired by the weight of armour they had to carry when dismounted, even though they were well protected, they were not as manouverable as the less equipped English. This, much like the lethality of the longbow, has often been overstated many times (especially by English historians) and is certainly nothing compared to the danger of drowning in the mud at Agincourt. Nonetheless, a knight, even at this time, was generally a horseman. Even the English knights did attempt mounted combat during Henry V's campaign, and removing that ability outright thanks to (even more) lethal ranged attack is not exactly something that can be dismissed.

While a Knight could fight on foot (and indeed, had to be able to, given that his horse was likely to be shot out from under him even if he was unharmed) the knight's primary role has always been as a heavy horseman, knighthood developing from the class of men who could afford to maintain horses and weapons of the required level.

A knight is still - simply by dint of being a well trained and disciplined (well... as discipline went) soldier - a fearsome proposition in ground combat, but it's possible for that armour to be a liability too. With occasional exceptions, knights did not prefer to fight on foot if they could avoid it. A medieval army going up against the demons is going to lose horses very swiftly, its archers won't be up to much (the demons seem generally highly resillient to bullets; while arrows are potentially very dangerous, they're also going to have a much lesser refire rate) and we're assuming that the tridents don't have a reach advantage on the lances - given that the demons are stonger, and physically bigger, than knights, I wouldn't count on it.

At the very best, this argument is that 'the Demons could force the humans to limit their mobility and hitting power. But it's not a crippling disadvantage' - indeed, it's not something that's going to immediately win such a war, but it's merely one of many, many, advantages the demons would enjoy.

Thats the thing, the demon version of a mounted man at arms has a speed and weight/strength advantage.

And an ability to basically serve as a horse archer par excellance. Abigor is ordering his demons to open fire at some considerable distance, here, as far as I can tell. While the characteristics of the lightning are as yet unknown, I wouldn't bet the farm on medeival plate armour earthing a knight effectively, while it's a lot of armour, the knight would be dependant on his armour being conductive all the way to the ground. And even then, the lightning may be powerful enough to heat that armour anyway.

...

Continuing on this note, just *how* effective are bronze broadswords and spears against steel plate mail? Not very, I'd guess.

One wouldn't imagine so. On the other hand, while the demons are using bronze or brass, they are also able to fire lightning out of this. They're presumably able to do so in close combat, as well, which makes even a touch from such a weapon potentially lethal, unless you're earthed very effectively. They seem to be rather inhumanly strong, too. I expect they'd either use those tridents as clubs against heavily armoured opponents, or just try and close in and pull heads off.

[brianeyci]

Without a lance, the momentum of a charge is wasted.


Besides, I thought only certain demons had the trident, and only the infantry at that. If they are horse archers they sure weren't used like them to start. I suppose we'll see the next battle. Until I see the effectiveness of Abigor's new shoot from range orders I'm going with conventional wisdom that horses with pistols blow.

[NecronLord]

Without a lance, the momentum of a charge is wasted.

Unless of course, you're riding a heavily armoured rhinolobster with big honking claws and a scorpion tail... While pikes woulc potentially be quite devastating to that, I expect the demons are used to that kind of thing - they should be familiar with pikes, in principle, they are a very very old weapon.

Besides, I thought only certain demons had the trident, and only the infantry at that.

"So he added another line, ordering all the infantry to keep firing their tridents as rapidly as they could recharge them. It didn’t matter if they hit anything, just to keep that ridge crest under continuous fire." You are correct; it may just be infantry (but it is all of them); but then, one wonders what the rhinolobster riders are armed with; assuming they're the same species, there's no reason for them not to have this weapon also (perhaps a cut down version in the role of pistol?). Of course, I would also expect that the rhinolobster riders have some kind of lance of their own, probably longer than most human ones were.

If they are horse archers they sure weren't used like them to start.

They couldn't see the over-the-horizon artillery that was pummeling them. And then there were the minefields... By the time they got a clear sight of the enemy, it was iron chariots coming to mush them under traks.

I suppose we'll see the next battle. Until I see the effectiveness of Abigor's new shoot from range orders I'm going with conventional wisdom that horses with pistols blow.

Kryk was able to hit a tank on his first shot. I rather doubt these qualify as pistols, at least with regard to accuracy.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

...

Continuing on this note, just *how* effective are bronze broadswords and spears against steel plate mail? Not very, I'd guess.

Your correct, not very. consider that plate armour went out of use because of the effectiveness of fire arms, and that properly made swords had little impact on plate should give you some indication. However not all armour types are made of steel, there is cloth as well as leather armour, and different weapons will work to varying degree's, or not at all, depending on what the sword was designed to work against.
Oh, its Plate or maile not plate mail, two different types of armour.

And with brain-shielding steel or iron helms, I imagine the occasional minor or lesser baldrick who came to Earth to have a bit of fun would've been in for a nasty surprise (especially ones that didn't fight with tridents, such as the harpies.) Mind you, with the advantages conferred by demonic physiology and numbers, an army from hell would still crush any human army through the American Civil War. One-on-one though . . . well, there are all those legends about heroic warriors slaying dragons. A medieval knight could've probably defeated an unmounted baldrick one-on-one, with a lot of intestinal fortitude and no small quantity of luck. (At least it'd be a lot less luck than, say, a bronze-age middle eastern infantryman, or even a Roman legionnaire would've required.)