How many SW infantry to clear out a GCS?

[Thanatos]

The main problem with holding the GCS is that its design is so poorly thought out, that it is incredibly easy to take over. Every single key area is within easy access of a ingress point. There's a ladder well in the Main shuttle bay that leads three decks up to the bridge and down two decks to four transporter rooms. The main hatches allow access through the zero gravity to everywhere in the lower hull.

Engineering, security and lower life support can be accessed directly from the cargo loading bays. Its like the whole ship is designed to allow the crew to get fucked in the ass by boarders.

[Themightytom]

[quote="Terralthra
The problem is the assumption of competence on your part. As an analogous example, say there was a topic about who would win in a boxing match, your grandma or Evander Holyfield. Most people would say, without any question, that Holyfield would win.

If you came in and said, "Well, that's only if my grandma acted the way she actually has for as long as I've known her. If she had a black belt in Tae Kwan Do, it would be a more fair fight," would you expect anyone to find that convincing?

You're doing that with the security officers aboard the GCS. Every time we've seen them in action, they have ranged from incompetent to astonishingly incompetent. Why should we now, for the purpose of debate, assume that they are competent in general, and only incompetent when a camera is pointed at them?[/quote]

Your point is completely valid and I was off topic. I'm not saying anything else about how star trek is written, not in this thread anyway. I realized I was in the position of defending star trek which is not something I really want to do.

There are actually a lot of on screen examples where small groups of intruders are able to somehow capture the ENTIRE ship, MUCH smaller groups than 50 storm troopers, and groups that are much less effectively trained or equipped.



Control the computer, control the ship

A B1 droid ould mow down anyone in its path access a computer junction, gas/kill the crew or force them to evacuate.

Youzhon Vong/Storm Troopers
One storm trooper could try clering the ship by shooting everyon, but the result would be a really long level of halo. Three klingons held the ship captive in heart of Glory, although at the end it was jsut the one klingong pointing his gun at the warp core.

If there is a time constraint you'd want more, if they intend to secure areas of the ship and ensure mutual protection, you'd want more. There weren't more than ten Ferengi's who took over the enterprise in the game. The Vong Warriors could accomplish similiar roles to what I describe below. The jedi could do it, but I'm not sure how the Wookies would do.

Take over the Holodeck. Professor Moriarty was able to control the ship from the holodeck first in "Elementary dear data" and then in a more sophisticated manner in "Ship in a Bottle"
.
Barclay manages to control the ship from the holodeck in "The Nth degree" Storm troopers Vong or jedi wouldn't need the complicated neural interface concept, the holodeck is designed to be used by children. Professor moriarty with no security clearance was able to make the ship shake. At first you would think it was because he is a computer controlled hologram, but later in Ship in a Bottle he needed computer access, so apaprently he was able to do something without clearance but not take full control.

He had to trick Captain Picard into transferring command controls to the holodeck. Not too difficult for a Jedi to use the Force and accomplish asuming they capture an officer. The vong could use the creature they attached to Cam (Can't cite the reference but it was the book where Wedge was defending the system adjacent to Coruscant right after Coruscant fell.)

The storm troopers could probably force someone to comply at gun point, threatening them, or if neccesary another hostage. The wookie could rip an arm off of someone.

Capture the transporter room

Same scenario as above, if you get a transporter room fast enough, beam everyone off of the bridge first, then anyone in engineering, and at that point no one is in a position to REALIZE you're beaming the crew into space. if you have troops to spare you could beam them onto the bridge, assuming they don't have a fear of transporters.

Take the battlebridge
Hasn't been done on screen but why not? There would be the same accessibilities to shipboard security functions as the main bridge.

According to this schematic
http://www.strekschematics.utvinternet. ... aticff.jpg

Is there a discussion over whether storm trooper armor can be transported?

Entry points

The main shuttle bay is only three decks under the bridge, so an imperial shuttle could fly in the front door. if you used a breaching pod in that area you can take the bridge fairly quickly.
.
Engineering seems accessible if you come in beside the neck of the ship on top of the engineering hull.

[wjs7744]

I like the sound of the lone B1 taking the whole ship. I can actually see something like it happening on the show, if you change it to a B2 instead (B1 would be too funny).

As for my numbers, yes 50 is a lot more than you need to kill the crew, I didn't read the OP well enough, and was thinking of capturing the ship, which will logically need more. Say, enough to operate the ship, then more to guard the prisoners, and 50 isn't necessarily that huge after all.

That cross section looks quite good, but it has the nav-deflector labeled as a long range sensor? Weird.

I guess the reason I concentrated on the sonic weapon part of your idea because I figured that no soldier, not even starfleet grunts, is going to listen to false orders broadcast on the enemies com network!

By the way, once we decide on the numbers, are we going to start making things harder for them by allowing Starfleet to come up with new tactics, or just finish off the thread?

[Batman]

Youzhon Vong/Storm Troopers
Take the battlebridge
Hasn't been done on screen but why not? There would be the same accessibilities to shipboard security functions as the main bridge.
According to this schematic
http://www.strekschematics.utvinternet. ... aticff.jpg

Which is totally non-canon but since you apparently can take over the entire ship from a random terminal in a corridor ...
Not that this actually works either way, of course. The different tech base thing works both ways-the Wars troops haven't the foggiest how to operate Trek tech computers, and aren't likely to find out withing the time frame of a boarding action. Same goes for taking over the holodeck.

Is there a discussion over whether storm trooper armor can be transported?

Not to my knowledge but since materials that CAN'T be transported are rather rare I would for the time being assume stormie armour can, too. Why?

Entry points
The main shuttle bay is only three decks under the bridge, so an imperial shuttle could fly in the front door. if you used a breaching pod in that area you can take the bridge fairly quickly.

One spacetrooper. Smash bridge roof window. Enter.

[wjs7744]

Is there a discussion over whether storm trooper armor can be transported?

Not to my knowledge but since materials that CAN'T be transported are rather rare I would for the time being assume stormie armour can, too. Why?

Materials that cant be transported are usually of a volatile nature, I doubt this would apply to armour. Stormy armour has never to my knowledge shown any signs of being a reactive armour, after all.

One spacetrooper. Smash bridge roof window. Enter.

I was going to suggest something similar, but I couldn't remember if they have a window on top of the bridge. Not that it really matters either way, as spacetroopers have equipment for breaching the hulls of Star Wars ships, and they are usually armoured. With a breaching pod, it can even be done by stormies, or the B1.

[Peptuck]

One spacetrooper. Smash bridge roof window. Enter.

I was going to suggest something similar, but I couldn't remember if they have a window on top of the bridge. Not that it really matters either way, as spacetroopers have equipment for breaching the hulls of Star Wars ships, and they are usually armoured. With a breaching pod, it can even be done by stormies, or the B1.[/quote]

Generations' ending after the Enterprise crashes shows that the top of the bridge is a window.

However, I doubt you'd need a spacetrooper to smash through that, considering that falling rocks and dirt from the impact shattered it.

[Peptuck]

One spacetrooper. Smash bridge roof window. Enter.

I was going to suggest something similar, but I couldn't remember if they have a window on top of the bridge. Not that it really matters either way, as spacetroopers have equipment for breaching the hulls of Star Wars ships, and they are usually armoured. With a breaching pod, it can even be done by stormies, or the B1.

Generations' ending after the Enterprise crashes shows that the top of the bridge is a window.

However, I doubt you'd need a spacetrooper to smash through that, considering that falling rocks and dirt from the impact shattered it.

Behold, the power of ghetto edit.

[Themightytom]

"One space trooper; smash tbe bridge window, enter."

That would be the tiny window in the ceiling?? you smash it and first of all all the air and possibly an unlucky klingon would get sucked out so he'd have to wait for that to happen unless a space trooper can squeeze through a tiny window while an enormous volume of air is squeezing out.

They frequently erect forcefields to deal with damage as seen in Generation when a forefield popped up in engineering on the Enterprise B
(Possibly too late however, as Captain kirk might have been sucked out by then, it was never clear if he entered the nexus from the ship or after being scuked out)

They also show the forcefield in Nemesis. neither example is a galaxy class but how far do youw ant to take the canon reference thing.

it be probably easier for the stormtrooper to breach the hull, or smash through the door sized window in the captains ready room, and then blow up the door seperating the two rooms.

Batman is right about the language and tech barrier, a baording party would have to be prepared in order to use the ships deffenses against its crew.

[Batman]

"One space trooper; smash tbe bridge window, enter."
That would be the tiny window in the ceiling?? you smash it and first of all all the air and possibly an unlucky klingon would get sucked out so he'd have to wait for that to happen unless a space trooper can squeeze through a tiny window while an enormous volume of air is squeezing out.

That TINY window of yours was several meters across, thank you. A Valendamned tank would fit through it. And why CAN'T the space trooper wait out the decompression?

They frequently erect forcefields to deal with damage as seen in Generation when a forefield popped up in engineering on the Enterprise B

they frequently FAIL to do so, too. Oh, and that was almost-TOS Starfleet. Burden of proof to show they still do this in TNG time is NOT on me.

They also show the forcefield in Nemesis. neither example is a galaxy class but how far do you want to take the canon reference thing.

To the point were you either show the Big E did it or shut up. In FC they use forcefields for bleedin windows. The question isn't can Starfleet ships use forcefields to seal hull breaches. The question is can a first flight Galaxy use force fields to seal that incredibly useless bridge window.Feel free to provide evidence for them doing so.

it be probably easier for the stormtrooper to breach the hull, or smash through the door sized window in the captains ready room, and then blow up the door seperating the two rooms.

No, I still think it'd be easiest to just break the glass of the bridge window, what with there being no evidence whatsoever of there being a force field sealing the break.

[Themightytom]

I have the burden of proof that a feature used successfully in the more primitive exclesior class 100 years before TNG isn't still being used in later ship designs even though theres that pretty obvious scene at the end of nemesis where you see people getting sucked out the front window until the forcefield pops on?

SHOW the big E did it? Do I need to post pictures? Its kind of an obvious scene when they crash into shinzons ship the front wall rips away everyone goes flying but the forcefield comes up right after Ensign Noluck gets pulled out.

I really don't think I have a burden of proof to prove they still use an effective safety feature. Do I have to prove that an 05 Ford Taurus has airbags when the 04 and the 06 do ?

but Holy shit you're right about the window, i never noticed the overhead window was that big, its like a fricking skylight. Given the size of it a space trooper probably wouldn't have to wait for very long for the bridge to decompress, and he could probably shoot out the forcefield

[Batman]

I have the burden of proof that a feature used successfully in the more primitive exclesior class 100 years before TNG isn't still being used in later ship designs even though theres that pretty obvious scene at the end of nemesis where you see people getting sucked out the front window until the forcefield pops on?

The term YES comes to mind.

SHOW the big E did it? Do I need to post pictures? Its kind of an obvious scene when they crash into shinzons ship the front wall rips away everyone goes flying but the forcefield comes up right after Ensign Noluck gets pulled out.

It's a pity then that was the E-E, not the E-D. Which is relevant to the E-D having force fields sealing hull breaches how exactly?

I really don't think I have a burden of proof to prove they still use an effective safety feature.

Yes you do.

Do I have to prove that an 05 Ford Taurus has airbags when the 04 and the 06 do ?

Yes.

[Peptuck]

I have the burden of proof that a feature used successfully in the more primitive exclesior class 100 years before TNG isn't still being used in later ship designs even though theres that pretty obvious scene at the end of nemesis where you see people getting sucked out the front window until the forcefield pops on?

Considering the apparent technical stagnation and even loss of gear they had in TOS compared to TNG, yes.

[nightmare]

The following post has been brought to you by the ministry of opinions. Remember to get yours delivered home today in order to avoid back penalties!

B1 battle droids

Several companies, given that they're cannon fodder with little imagination. Most of a galaxy's crew are noncombattants, though, and they use very little defenses, if any. I mean how many ferengi did it take? Sure, the galaxy can certainly be better defended. But if Picard & Co put up that little resistance, the only thing that could give SW troops problems would be lack of intel.

Stormtroopers

Depends on their equipment. Several platoons, at least.

Yuuzhan Vong warriors

Perhaps half the number of stormtroopers, mostly because there's a lot of ground to cover and they have a lot of funky equipment, and they probably won't be bothering with prisoners.

Wookies armed with bowcasters

Just bowcasters? These guys are supposed to be the heavy hitters in the alliance... well, some of the heavy hitters at least.

Jedi

Just one. If it's a half-decent one at least. Otherwise, two.

Alternatively, four Mandalorian wanktroopers. One to give the orders, two to banter, and one to do the job.

[wjs7744]

That would be the tiny window in the ceiling?? you smash it and first of all all the air and possibly an unlucky klingon would get sucked out so he'd have to wait for that to happen unless a space trooper can squeeze through a tiny window while an enormous volume of air is squeezing out.

We often see decompression times of several minutes in movies, but is that the way it works in RL? I would think that decompression would be a quick affair, especially out a massive breach.

[Themightytom]

this is the same line of thinking that concludes with they don't have toilets...

[Sidewinder]

You only need two Jedi. One to fuck up the Captain's mind and make him order, "Abandon ship!" a second to defend the first from any Force resistant personnel in the bridge.

If we replace the Jedi with a Sith Lord is involved, you only need one. The Sith Lord kills everyone except the Captain and a redshirt as a hostage, and forces the Captain to order, "Abandon ship!"

[Batman]

this is the same line of thinking that concludes with they don't have toilets...

No. It's the line of thinking that concludes 'if they don't display an ability even when that would really benefit them' chances are, they don't have it.
How many times have we seen TNG in situations where actually having toilets would have saved the day yet they weren't around?

[fusion]

If we replace the Jedi with a Sith Lord is involved, you only need one. The Sith Lord kills everyone except the Captain and a redshirt as a hostage, and forces the Captain to order, "Abandon ship!"

Why would he need to make the captain order, "Abandon ship!" when he has killed everyone?

Also I mostly agree with nightmare besides the fact that he brought up the fact of the the wank-troopers...

[Themightytom]

this is the same line of thinking that concludes with they don't have toilets...

No. It's the line of thinking that concludes 'if they don't display an ability even when that would really benefit them' chances are, they don't have it.
How many times have we seen TNG in situations where actually having toilets would have saved the day yet they weren't around?

Ok and since the bridge of the enterprise D was never open to space we would never have an opportunity to see a forcefield, so they don't exist, whatever. Any point for which I have to argue to obscurity is not worth making.

[Batman]

We have seen a number of incidents where the hull of the E-D (or any number of other SF ships) was cut open. Guess what, no sealing forcefields.Ever, excepting the E-B in Generations and the E-E in Genesis.




This us usually the point where somebody shows that I'm flat out wrong.

[Sidewinder]

If we replace the Jedi with a Sith Lord is involved, you only need one. The Sith Lord kills everyone except the Captain and a redshirt as a hostage, and forces the Captain to order, "Abandon ship!"

Why would he need to make the captain order, "Abandon ship!" when he has killed everyone?

Sorry, I should clarify: the Sith Lord kills everyone IN THE BRIDGE except for the Captain and a redshirt. A Sith Lord can probably prevent the Captain from summoning aid from outside the bridge, e.g., by killing or incapacitating the senior officers before they say, "Security!"

[chitoryu12]

If we replace the Jedi with a Sith Lord is involved, you only need one. The Sith Lord kills everyone except the Captain and a redshirt as a hostage, and forces the Captain to order, "Abandon ship!"

Why would he need to make the captain order, "Abandon ship!" when he has killed everyone?

Sorry, I should clarify: the Sith Lord kills everyone IN THE BRIDGE except for the Captain and a redshirt. A Sith Lord can probably prevent the Captain from summoning aid from outside the bridge, e.g., by killing or incapacitating the senior officers before they say, "Security!"

Then he wouldn't even need to take a hostage. If a pretty scary looking guy in a black hood walked into the bridge and started flinging the crew into bulkheads and consoles with his mind, any sane captain would immediately surrender without any need to hold an ensign captive.

[Terralthra]

We have seen a number of incidents where the hull of the E-D (or any number of other SF ships) was cut open. Guess what, no sealing forcefields.Ever, excepting the E-B in Generations and the E-E in Genesis.




This us usually the point where somebody shows that I'm flat out wrong.

The only direct reference I can find proves you right:

RO
(indicates turbolift)
Well, don't count on leaving
through there. An emergency
bulkhead closed just beneath that
lift.

O'BRIEN
(nods)
Confinement mode.

RO
Right. Isolation protocol.

Troi tries to remember, but she's not sure what
they're talking about.

TROI
I'm... not really familiar with
that protocol.

O'BRIEN
(to Troi)
If the computer senses a hull
breach, it automatically closes
emergency bulkheads to isolate
the breach. Until we can clear
those bulkheads, we'll be cut-off
from the rest of the ship.

Maybe Starfleet engineers figured out that making one's mechanism for avoiding decompression in the case of a hull breach entirely dependent on functioning power systems wasn't a great idea?

...and then forgot again for the Defiant and Sovereign classes.

[Timotheus]

We have seen a number of incidents where the hull of the E-D (or any number of other SF ships) was cut open. Guess what, no sealing forcefields.Ever, excepting the E-B in Generations and the E-E in Genesis.




This us usually the point where somebody shows that I'm flat out wrong.

Forcefields maintained hull integrity the first time they encountered the borg and the borged carved themself a nice juicy taste of the Ent-D

[Feil]

I'm going to call MAD. Can't some plucky crewman just threaten to destroy the ship by smacking the warp core with a socket wrench if the Warsians don't turn back?