Heaven Runs out of Room

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 12:33am

Zuul wrote:I like the idea, it is just obviously not in the spirit of the OP.
If a hypothetical scenario is defined in a manner which makes no sense, that is a pointless argument. That is certainly the case here: if this "incontrovertible proof" is scientific in nature, then logically, it should be possible to conduct research into it. And given the original nature of Christian mythology (as opposed to the modern New Age Hollywood version of it), angels and demons probably aren't really as formidable as they're made out to be. The only really awe-inspiring feats described in the Bible are committed before the narrator himself (Moses) is even born, hence they are all hearsay even in a Biblical context.

And logically, if this proof were of the "spiritual" or "revelatory" variety rather than the scientific variety, then it would have no real effect on society at all. People would just shrug and ignore it, because we are bombarded with non-physical "proofs" of Heaven and Hell all the time.
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Post by Rye » 2008-01-10 12:34am

ays the man whose constantly reminding us he doesn't know what it means to have empirical evidence...
Yeah, that answered my question. Good show! Take that, ghosts!
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Post by Stark » 2008-01-10 12:35am

Darth Wong wrote:Probably end up negotiating with Satan.
Actually, that's a really good point.

By making hell universal (without 'salvation'), god is basically forcing humans to do something about it. If it's a place you can get to, they'll try, and if it looks like they're in with a go surely satan (or whoever) would open diplomatic relations. After all, the world powers behind such an undertaking wouldn't have a problem with SOME people being tortured. Negotiation of this type might result in 'hell' being subdivided and administered in a variety of ways, and the afterlife again becoming a regular place you can go.

I bet the rich would complain about treatment, too, and if able to communicate with their living relatives bust out the politics. If there's the whole of human history in there, some really 'long game' strategies would show up. Imagine if the US President and the Hell Administration were buddy-buddy and he moved to ensure that all homosexuals got worse treatment for example.

Nitram's point that the Hell Administration would go BACK over all the inmates to determine 'appropriate' treatment is really interesting. If there's little historical information (ie Joe Assyrian claims he never raped that girl) I can totally see 'Judge 1200-1100BCE - Central Europe' shows on television. Noone who's been in some kind of torment for thousands of years is going to be a reliable witness, but it'd make for biblical action. :)

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Post by SirNitram » 2008-01-10 12:35am

Zuul wrote:
ays the man whose constantly reminding us he doesn't know what it means to have empirical evidence...
Yeah, that answered my question. Good show! Take that, ghosts!
What ghosts? The OP said nothing of ghosts. You made that up. Sorta like how you made up the idea of 'one way interaction'. :lol:
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 12:35am

RogueIce wrote:Incidently, if we can get to Hell as a physical place, what's to stop the new undead masters of Hell (assuming they defeat the devil, strike a deal, whatever) from launching its own invasion of Earth? Essentially the whole Revelations End of Days thing (that whole Hell on Earth bit, IIRC), just without God eventually bailing us out.
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Seriously, the ancients' idea of godlike abilities was such that plenty of things we can do today actually fit the bill.
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Post by Zablorg » 2008-01-10 12:36am

So the existence of hell means potential immortality and maybe even unlimited energy. Hooray! Hell is a good thing!
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Post by Stark » 2008-01-10 12:39am

Darth Wong wrote:Image
Seriously, the ancients' idea of godlike abilities was such that plenty of things we can do today actually fit the bill.
I think he meant post-conquest, the human inhabitants of hell (the 'undead') trying to leave the hell area. If they'd recieved military aid during the post-conquest occupation and the government was working with current nations, such things could be pretty crazy with 'terrorists' from hell working for the CIA etc.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 12:40am

Stark wrote:I think he meant post-conquest, the human inhabitants of hell (the 'undead') trying to leave the hell area. If they'd recieved military aid during the post-conquest occupation and the government was working with current nations, such things could be pretty crazy with 'terrorists' from hell working for the CIA etc.
The Americans would build a wall.
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Post by Surlethe » 2008-01-10 12:41am

Darth Wong wrote:The thermodynamics of Hell would be interesting to examine. Does it have an infinite power source? Or would the act of tapping into it as a power source cause an eventual cooling death of Hell?
Have you seen the thermodynamics of hell test answer?

More seriously, given an exponentially increasing influx of souls and the fact that the fiery torment in hell is proportional to the number of souls, whatever powers hell must be capable of continuously increasing power at an exponential rate, at least in the short term. Perhaps the long term plan for hell is to freeze over like Dante's ninth level.

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Post by Stark » 2008-01-10 12:41am

Darth Wong wrote:The Americans would build a wall.
In this case, when killed they'd reappear in the Hell Processing Area, and they'd be flagged as 'illegal immigrants' and kept in the high-security areas of hell.

Hell rights activists anyone? :)

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Post by RogueIce » 2008-01-10 12:42am

Darth Wong wrote:Seriously, the ancients' idea of godlike abilities was such that plenty of things we can do today actually fit the bill.
True. But some people were suggesting "equipping" our volunteers to die with whatever they had at hand. So presumably, if that's the case, Hell could get to be quite well armed too.

I'm not really saying we couldn't overthrow the demons or whatever if we gave it enough of a go. I guess the question is, once our Dead Volunteers have taken over Hell, what's really to stop them coming back and doing the same here, since they're already dead (and we equipped them rather nicely before they went down?)?

Unless Hell is some physical place in another galaxy or something, and not just somehow "hidden" on our planet (and we find the gates or something).

Although if the Dead make their way up here from Hell, their effectiveness largely depends then on just how that works, and whether or not they can really die twice (or maybe they just have respawn points in Hell and have to go back once they get blown up? It's like a neverending FPS! :) ).
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 12:42am

Stark wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The Americans would build a wall.
In this case, when killed they'd reappear in the Hell Processing Area, and they'd be flagged as 'illegal immigrants' and kept in the high-security areas of hell.

Hell rights activists anyone? :)
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Post by Stark » 2008-01-10 12:43am

Incredible corrupt 'work you way to the resort parts of hell' programs invovling menial labour and constant reporting errors? Sounds like an American idea of rehabilitation! :)

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 12:44am

You could probably argue that there's some totally mundane reason why demons can't just run around trying to take over the real world. A common theme in mythology is that demons can't stand the light, so it could be as mundane as exposure to sunlight destroying or horribly torturing them. That might also explain why demons in mythology tend to try and possess living creatures; that might shield them somehow.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Post by SirNitram » 2008-01-10 12:45am

Oh, it'd be horribly corrupt and full of mistakes and prejudices.

But the alternative is everyone burns and suffers for a period of time probably equal to the lifespan of the rest of existance.

I'd take a corrupt and menial work program over that any damn day.
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Post by RogueIce » 2008-01-10 12:47am

Darth Wong wrote:You could probably argue that there's some totally mundane reason why demons can't just run around trying to take over the real world. A common theme in mythology is that demons can't stand the light, so it could be as mundane as exposure to sunlight destroying or horribly torturing them.
Perhaps. Would that apply to those who die and go there as well then?

Oh yeah, and let's hope if that is the case they never figure out how to do that eternal darkness trick from The Matrix. :wink: I mean, after all, they've got eternity to think about it, and a whole lot of manpower down there. It's like inmates vs prison guards, only worse.

Anyway, if not, perhaps we'd just do the whole Monty Pythoin Black Knight thing: blow off their arms and legs so they can't really do anything to us, without actually "killing" them per se?
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The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 12:47am

BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed. One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

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"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

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Post by RogueIce » 2008-01-10 12:49am

Darth Wong wrote:BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed. One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
Well, the OP said that we get the whole eternity of damnation bit. So even if the Devil, demons, fallen angels, whatever can die, the OP would seem to imply we're kinda stuck there forever.
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"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)

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The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight

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Post by Rye » 2008-01-10 12:50am

SirNitram wrote:
Zuul wrote:
ays the man whose constantly reminding us he doesn't know what it means to have empirical evidence...
Yeah, that answered my question. Good show! Take that, ghosts!
What ghosts? The OP said nothing of ghosts. You made that up. Sorta like how you made up the idea of 'one way interaction'. :lol:
Ghosts like the one that visited the Witch of Endor and have been part of jewish myth for ages? Those ghosts. The spirits of the dead that go to Hell as per the thread. Duh. Also, you'll note (or should, at any rate) I never wrote "one way interaction" either.
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Post by Zablorg » 2008-01-10 12:51am

Is it the nature of hell to produce demons constantly, as vaguely suggested by the term "spawn of hell"? Could we exploit this and somehow reprogram hell to instead become a mass production factory?
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 12:51am

RogueIce wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed. One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
Well, the OP said that we get the whole eternity of damnation bit. So even if the Devil, demons, fallen angels, whatever can die, the OP would seem to imply we're kinda stuck there forever.
Maybe it's cyclical, which is another common theme in ancient mythology. So you die and go to Hell, and when you die in Hell, you go to another Hell, and so on, and so on. With an eternity of Hells in different places.
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Post by SirNitram » 2008-01-10 12:53am

Darth Wong wrote:BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed. One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
None at all. Clearly, we need as many religious symbols etched onto our tank shells, bomb casings, and tanks as possible, so as to inflict maximum damage through holy asskickery.

I'm also curious why Satan wouldn't look on this as a boon. If it's the Biblical Deceiver, he's finally got a chance at a fair trial and an end to his sentence, even if he surrenders! No more torment, no more crap. I imagine after the first few thousand years of being shit on by Heaven, he'd be happy to retire to a nice bungalo by a sea which, itself, is on fire.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 12:53am

Zuul wrote:I never wrote "one way interaction" either.
Yes you did, you just didn't realize it. You kept ranting about some kind of ecto-whatever field that allows nothing but souls to enter. If that's the case, then how the hell are we supposed to observe this place and get our incontrovertible proof of its existence and nature? It would look like a black hole.
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Post by Surlethe » 2008-01-10 12:54am

Darth Wong wrote:BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed.
Well, if they're physical entities (as required by empirical evidence of them), then if you apply enough energy to them in a short enough period of time, they'll phase change. If they're humanoid, as certainly imagined by the ancients, then it is probably simply a matter of scattering the CNS-equivalent.
One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
How does that tally with the eternal torture stipulation of the OP?

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Post by Rye » 2008-01-10 12:55am

Darth Wong wrote:BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed. One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
The Bible's contradictory on that point. There are parts that say people burn forever, gnash wail, etc "where their worm dieth not", there's parts that imply annihilation of the wicked, and Sheol was a communal grave where everyone went and experienced no more till judgement day. Aside from intentional annihilation, though, there's nothing that really supports the idea that people have a lifespan in the afterlife.
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