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Ritterin Sophia
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Darwin wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Sorry but the blood clot argument isn’t too solid ground for anything, because its just as likely that they developed a fast acting blood thinner (the rat poison based ones we have these days take a week or more to begin working at all) which is issued to pilots before long missions.
And keep in mind that these are 'humans' that can survive untreated severe burns and lung destruction for days.
Don't forget that they can only get severed spines below the kneck!

It'd be interesting to hear how they evolved such a resistance to physicaly injury, and why they're born with only metal knecks.
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Post by Joe Momma »

skies wrote:It's funny how star fleet denies being a military force. They have a military command structure (with a rigidly enforced hierarchy), military uniforms, and militarized vessels. Hell, even the so called science core have a uniform (a sort of gray jumpsuit with a silver bar across the chest).
IIRC, Gene Roddenberry actually wanted to forego rank insignia on the uniforms altogether initially, but realized that would be stretching things a bit too much.
I don't recall real world exploration and shipping vessels having weapons, except in times of war or in dangerous areas; even then, they had just light armament for basic defense and relied on fully armed naval escorts. Basically, you never arm a vessel unless you plan to use them, ether in battle or as a projection of force (i.e. gun boat diplomacy, patrol duty, or defensive escort).The only times armed vessels were used for exploration by nation states was when a navel vessel was tasked with a special exploratory mission
And conversely, military resources are applied to many functions other than making war -- disaster assistance, rescue operations, exploration, and R&D. All of which Starfleet does. As another example, I've seen several Trekkies making the argument that Starfleet is a non-military organization like the US Coast Guard, completely ignoring the fact that the USCG is considered part of the American military.

The primary difference seems to be that Starfleet doesn't do nearly as much specialization, though we have seen some dedicated science and hospital vessels. That difference isn't substantive IMO -- it just means they chose a more generalized approach. That may make sense in terms of dramatic license because it allows a wider variety of missions for our intrepid crew, but in RL it would be terribly inefficient.
The only thing non-military about starfleet seems to be their strategic and tactical (lack) of ability.
AFAICT, the sticking point in Trekkies' arguments that Starfleet was not a military was the assumption that if they were then all they would be used for is fighting and that they would default to forceful solutions to everything. IOW, they would have a "shoot-first, ask questions later" at best and at worst would be a conquering force. These are very simplistic assumptions and also one quite easily contradicted with RL evidence.

The varied roles that a military can serve were already noted above. It's also not hard to find military men who are thoughtful advocates of only using force at those times and levels at which it is absolutely necessary, in part because their knowledge and experience gives them an informed respect for the consequences of those actions.

So frankly, beating the "Starfleet is not a military drum" is pretty damn silly, but some Trekkies do it all the same.
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Post by Junghalli »

General Schatten wrote:It'd be interesting to hear how they evolved such a resistance to physicaly injury, and why they're born with only metal knecks.
Genetic enhancement?
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Post by Peptuck »

Junghalli wrote:
General Schatten wrote:It'd be interesting to hear how they evolved such a resistance to physicaly injury, and why they're born with only metal knecks.
Genetic enhancement?
That's some seriously hardcore genetics right there.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Peptuck wrote:
Junghalli wrote:
General Schatten wrote:It'd be interesting to hear how they evolved such a resistance to physicaly injury, and why they're born with only metal knecks.
Genetic enhancement?
That's some seriously hardcore genetics right there.
Oooh... I'm sorry, but the term we were looking for was metal, metal was the phrase we were looking for... but you still win the booby prize.
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Post by lord Martiya »

skies wrote:Hell, it took a a Vorg invasion, the return of the Romulans and the threat of a second war with the Cardasians and an invasion by the Dominion to get them to build dedicated warships like the Reliant class.
Excuse me, but what exactly is this Reliant class? I searched on Memory Alpha, but there isn't a such page...
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Post by Darwin »

lord Martiya wrote:
skies wrote:Hell, it took a a Vorg invasion, the return of the Romulans and the threat of a second war with the Cardasians and an invasion by the Dominion to get them to build dedicated warships like the Reliant class.
Excuse me, but what exactly is this Reliant class? I searched on Memory Alpha, but there isn't a such page...
I think he means the Defiant class.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Darwin wrote:
lord Martiya wrote:
skies wrote:Hell, it took a a Vorg invasion, the return of the Romulans and the threat of a second war with the Cardasians and an invasion by the Dominion to get them to build dedicated warships like the Reliant class.
Excuse me, but what exactly is this Reliant class? I searched on Memory Alpha, but there isn't a such page...
I think he means the Defiant class.
Oddly enough, I've mixed up "Reliant" and "Defiant" many times myself.
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Post by Master_Baerne »

Darth Wong wrote:
Darwin wrote:
lord Martiya wrote: Excuse me, but what exactly is this Reliant class? I searched on Memory Alpha, but there isn't a such page...
I think he means the Defiant class.
Oddly enough, I've mixed up "Reliant" and "Defiant" many times myself.
Not that hard, really. Reliant on technobabble, Defiant of the laws of physics... :P
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Post by TC Pilot »

Zablorg, I took a glance at JMSpock's reply to you. There's a few cases where you can completely rip his argument apart.

1. His argument still demands that Vader spend hours upon hours delaying in delivering Luke (giving the rather generous estimate that it's Vader's shuttle leaving the landing platform in the scene before the fleet launches)
2. The Death Star is still on the night-side of Endor when the Rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace, meaning Spock's estimate based on the light direction is either outright wrong (assuming the Death Star's directly above the base), or worthless (assuming the Death Star is not above the base)
3. FX goof-up. There's a rather glaring "shadow goof" between the first shot of the Tatooine cantina and the one a minute later when they actually walk toward it.

Any and all of those should be enough to trounce him.
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Post by Alien-Carrot »

They think Bat'Leths can beat broadswords? Did they ever see the DS9 episode where Worf specifically tells Dax that Bat'Leths are use only in ceremonial combat? And then he beats Dax with a knife similar to the one used in FC, while she is using a Bat'Leth. At this point, Worf says that the knife is a superior weapon to the Bat'Leth, which is why it's used in actual combat.

Just to be specific, its a kukri shaped knife, not the 3 bladed dagger.

Ill post the episode number later, after i've looked through all the DS9 scripts and found the scene.
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Post by Alien-Carrot »

FADE IN:

1 INT. HOLOSUITE - CAVES

Worf and DAX are fighting with the short sword and the
bat'leth, respectively. Worf is wearing his workout
gi, while Dax has on a much tighter-fitting leotard.
They're both pretty good, and the match is even until
Worf locks the hooked edge of his sword around the
longer blade of Dax's bat'leth and then BREAKS her
weapon in two. He steps forward and puts the point of
his sword against her chest.

WORF
(touche)
E-cha!

Dax bows her head in defeat and the match is over.

DAX
(I lose)
Movek.
(beat)
Okay. I see your point. The
mek'leth does have its advantages.
But I still say that the longer
reach of the bat'leth is usually
the deciding factor.

Worf picks up a towel and hands one to Dax.

WORF
That is the classic argument.
However, I find that using a large
and intimidating weapon like a
bat'leth often leads to...
overconfidence.
Episode 87 "The Sons of Mogh"

I misremembered the ceremonial combat thing, but the scene still shows that a mek'leth can decimate a Bat'leth. And the mek'leth is only about 24 inches long

http://www.geocities.com/Ktesh_Kag/meqlehsizing2.htm
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alien-Carrot wrote:They think Bat'Leths can beat broadswords? Did they ever see the DS9 episode where Worf specifically tells Dax that Bat'Leths are use only in ceremonial combat? And then he beats Dax with a knife similar to the one used in FC, while she is using a Bat'Leth. At this point, Worf says that the knife is a superior weapon to the Bat'Leth, which is why it's used in actual combat.
At this point, you have to hope Sean Connery walks in, kills them both, and says "Isn't that just like a Klingon. Brings a knife to a gunfight."
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Post by lord Martiya »

Like Harrison Ford in that Indiana Jones movie?
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

lord Martiya wrote:Like Harrison Ford in that Indiana Jones movie?
Like Sean Connery in 'The Untouchables'. Its classic cinema, boy!
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Post by lord Martiya »

I didn't see The Untouchables, but I remember that in a movie of Indiana Jones Indiana Jones (interpreted by Ford), after a big fistfight, saw a villain armed with a sword, and while the villain danced with his sword Jones shoot him.
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

Actually I was thinking it was Sean Connery fromn the first Highlander movie.
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Post by Darth Wong »

CaptainChewbacca is the only one who identified it correctly. The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Darth Wong wrote:CaptainChewbacca is the only one who identified it correctly. The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I put quite a few men in the morgue, in my day.
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Post by Zablorg »

Ugh now he's claiming that flying twelve hours won't have any impact on the Fleet's fighting skills, AND he's inventing some shit about gravity haxxorz in the seats to make them more comfortable...
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Post by Aaron »

Yes he got that from the Trekkie Prophet(TM) himself. Darkstar brought it up in their circlejerk club. It's pretty obvious that JMSpock and crew have little to no original ideas.
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Post by Darth Servo »

Its obvious JMSpock and company will say ANYTHING to avoid admitting defeat. Hell, look at how he responded to Aratech posting Padme's astromechs getting nailed by Trade Fed fire. "Duh, I conceded that on my board where you can't see it. How dare you continue proving how wrong I was. And to further evade the point, I'll whine about the original you-tube video being blurry even though I made no such complaint before the still screen shots were presented."
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Post by Junghalli »

Zablorg wrote:Ugh now he's claiming that flying twelve hours won't have any impact on the Fleet's fighting skills
Ask him how he'd like to have been strapped in a chair for 12 hours straights before taking his SATs, and whether he thinks it might have affected his test scores.
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Post by rhoenix »

Junghalli wrote:
Zablorg wrote:Ugh now he's claiming that flying twelve hours won't have any impact on the Fleet's fighting skills
Ask him how he'd like to have been strapped in a chair for 12 hours straights before taking his SATs, and whether he thinks it might have affected his test scores.
Or even if he's been just fine after driving for 12 hours straight.

Though something tells me he doesn't have a car or license yet, so you'd see bullshit bravado on that one too.
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Post by Vehrec »

Anyone who's seen the new Complete ICS would understand that there couldn't be much comfort in the cockpit of an A-wing. It's a tiny fighter, and I'd frankly be amazed if pilots climb into it regularly without help. The pilot is literally straddling his controls, wedged in there so tight that its hard to believe that it has an ejection seat unless that console is blown free first. Otherwise, that pilot would be short his legs below the thigh.
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