[WH40K] Imperial weapons numbers

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Shadowtraveler
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Post by Shadowtraveler » 2007-05-31 11:53pm

Lost Soal wrote:With the slight previso that, I think, Larkin uses his own non-standard scope. He certainly tinkers with it at the least as he's shown re-calibrating it at the beginning of Necropolis
That he does. It has night and heat vision modes. It can also see through psychic illusions, as shown at the end of Ghostmaker, though this may be due to his absolute belief in its truthiness, for lack of a better word :D

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-01 04:09am

Shadowtraveler wrote:
Lost Soal wrote:With the slight previso that, I think, Larkin uses his own non-standard scope. He certainly tinkers with it at the least as he's shown re-calibrating it at the beginning of Necropolis
That he does. It has night and heat vision modes. It can also see through psychic illusions, as shown at the end of Ghostmaker, though this may be due to his absolute belief in its truthiness, for lack of a better word :D
It also has a visible, tangible beam of some sort it projects (sometimes blue, sometimes red.) Curiously I can only recall something similar occuring in the Ben Counter novels.

I should also note its distinct from the mono-sights/infra-sights mentioned in other sources (Necromunda and the 3rd edition rulebook) as well as distinct from Targeters (which most Storm troopers and Veteran Guardsman use.)

Edit: Silly me, I also forgot those Kasrkin from Malleus (2nd Eisenhorn novel) with the auspex sight-scopes on their own lasguns (the ones that were smart enough not to fire on Eisenhorn.)
Last edited by Connor MacLeod on 2007-06-01 04:24am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-01 04:12am

Falkenhayn wrote: Do we know what they are measuring calibre against? I know Connor did calcs for 1 MJ shotguns, and what the Ghosts know as a "30 Cal" reduces people to viscera and random appendages.
I did a calc for a 1 mj shotgun? Where? I don't remember that. The closest thing to that would be from an Eisenhorn short story where the gunfire from an Arbiter squad (well several squads) vaporized a rather burly flamer operator (and that could be due to ammo - Shotguns and their larger cousins shotcannon can share similarities with bolters, which we know can also vaporize parts of people or whole people.)

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-01 04:23am

andrewgpaul wrote: Could be, but it's the only way the number makes any sort of sense. Are you seriousl suggesting they meant for an infantry rifle to have a 205mm round? :)
No, I was inferring it would just be a ~20mm round before we found out its a typo. Now its probably an 8.25mm round as already mentioned.
The book states "the autogun is comparable in effectiveness to a lasgun", which is unlikely for a weapon with a larger bore than an Earthshaker cannon. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time Forgeworld missed out a word in a publication :)
Well, setting aside I never implied 200mm (I was going by the typo remember) that other bit is not strictly true. I mean if you were comparing purely energy, a lasgun can be comparable to a arty shell. Admittedly it wouldn't be an accurate comparison due to the vast difference in momentum, but still..

The earlier 40K fluff mentioned that lasguns were also comparable in "effectiveness" to a bullet/shell (meaning autogun or shotgun presumably) and those can but big nasty holes in people, blow off limbs, or blow heads off (esp shotguns.). A lasgun of course, requires more energy to do this than a bullet/shell (the diff between a physical impactor and a beam, again.)
Connor, I did; the bit about the Grenadier. It's just that the Death Korps call it a "tyoe XIV lasgun (heavy)" :). A bit I didn't quote is that the backpack powerpack holds 200 shots.
I just noticed that. Although do they call it a "hellgun" in the book for sure, or are you just calling it that? Earlier fluff had "hotshot lasguns" backpack powered too (2nd edition Guard Codex even had a picture - they looked like the Ghostbusters.)

200 shots seems a bit small for a hellgun/hotshot gun though, given the size of the pack, unless its also got cooling systems and/or recharges more easily (doubtful.) That's probably equal to 10 hotshot packs there, but given the size of a power pack, 10 packs would still be less bulky I'd wager.

Maybe the backpack mount has a much higher "per shot" output than the pack, or the 200 shots is on max settings as it is.

I'm also curious that they mention Death Korps Grenadiers. Accordijng to the later Guard Codexes their doctrine has storm troopers but not grenadiers :P

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-01 04:30am

Steel wrote: Also judging from the size of the magazine on the model the rounds are pretty long, much longer than modern rounds, so presumably with potentially enhanced propellant an even bigger kick.
Probably a bit of both. At 8.25mm of course the bullet is going to be bigger (and of course heavier) - assuming dimensions simialr to a 7.62mm bullet its probably about 1.3-1.4 times heavier. If the bullet is even slightly longer it could be 1.5x or more heavier (say 11-15 grams, which is alot for a bullet of that size.)

In terms of muzzle velocity its already close to what the "heavier" 7.62mm rounds do (like the one in the M-14 rifle) and thus it probably gets similar performance.

Assuming ~12-13 gram bullet at 820 m/s you're getting around 4-4.5 kilojoules of KE (nearly 50% more than what the AK-47 does) and ~10 kg*m/s worth of momentum. Some of the calcs with a "heavier" bullet got all the way up to 5-6 kilojoules (nearly 2x effective to modern weapons.)

Range-wise you'd probably be looking at something similar to the M-14 - 500-600 meters at least, possibly up to 800-1000 meters or so depending on scopes and such.

Recoil is sitll going to be kinda a limiting factor, although its not as brutal as the prior calcs inferred :D

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-01 04:35am

The other thing is that if we can compare the "megathule" bewtween several different kinds of rifles, the 28 MT grenadier rifle is nearly 2x more powerful than the "standard" 19 mt lasguns mentioned elsehwere (Elysian from IA3, the Kantrael pattern one the Cadians use, and the M-G pattern from the Uplifting Primer.)

A hellgun is at least as good as a hotshot, and in some cases might be slightly more powerful, so we can infer that a "standard" lasgun (if there is such a thing) probably is 1/2 as powerful as a hotshot las, and 1/2-1/4 the power of a Hellgun (Hellguns can be freaking powerful, so I'm fudging the variables a bit.) But defeintely not "orders of magntiude" difference in power.

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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-06-01 01:44pm

Conner, the bits you quoted 2 posts above were before I noticed the typo, hence my confusion at you quoting .825 calibre. Sorry.

The Grenadier spread says "... type XIV lasgun (heavy), referred to by troops as the 'hellgun' or more rarely 'hotshot' lasgun."

Rules-wise, the book lists the Death Korps' doctrines as:

Iron Discipline, Die-Hards, Hardened Fighters, Storm Trooper Squads, Heavy Weapon Squads, Rough Rider Squads, same as Codex: Imperial Guard. Points costs are included in the cost of the squads. Grenadiers are an Elites choice for the Death Korps, i.e. they take the place of Storm Troopers.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-06-01 01:45pm

ghetto edit: It appears that a Hellgun and a lasgun with hotshot pack are the same thing. That's how I looked at it all along, anyway.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-06-02 10:19am

I've been flicking through IA 3 and 4 for colour schemes for Elysians. Their Accatran MkIV lasgun is a 19 megathule weapon, getting 50 shots from a power pack.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-02 11:50am

andrewgpaul wrote:ghetto edit: It appears that a Hellgun and a lasgun with hotshot pack are the same thing. That's how I looked at it all along, anyway.
Did volume 5 call the Grenadier's lasgun a "hellgun" specifically though? I realize they might be technically similar in terms of capabilities, but there are also potential distinctions - I mean technically you can make ANY lasgun a "Hotshot" las, at the expense of greater maintenance.

Hellguns, by contrast, seem to be much higher quality and thus more durable (although I'm betting Hellgun capability and quality varies like it does for las weapons. If the DK grenadiers use the "lasgun" it must be a rather shitty one by all accounts (someone went on at length about the "limitations" of Hellguns in general based off of that. I'm kinda scoffing at that, since another storm trooper had his backpack-fed Hellgun dropped into the jungles of Armageddon, out of a crashing Valkyrie, and subsisted for days without supplies or support/maintenance. And the bloody thing worked just fine.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-02 11:51am

andrewgpaul wrote:I've been flicking through IA 3 and 4 for colour schemes for Elysians. Their Accatran MkIV lasgun is a 19 megathule weapon, getting 50 shots from a power pack.
I remember someone else mentioning that. Its also single shot.

Do 3rd and 4th give any other useful weapons data like volume 5 did? Aside from the Elysian lasgun that is.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-02 12:09pm

ah well I'll cut and paste the "hellgun limmits' description.
IA Vol 5 lists the various limitations of the "Hellgun", including why it is not used by the Guard as a whole. On the upside it's significantly more powerful ("28 Magathule range") and, when it functions properly, is more accurate and has longer range. However it has a lot of downsides. Firstly it's unreliable. The power couplings quickly wear out with the increased strain, particularly during automatic fire, and need careful maintenance, else the shot power falls off rapidly. Secondly they overheat a lot. Hellguns have refrigeration systems, but during automatic fire these sometimes fail, at which point an automatic failsafe shuts the weapon down and prevents further shots - possibly a bad thing if the target you were firing so rapidly at is still closing. Lastly they quickly become innaccurate when they heat up, with barrel warping throwing shots of target. All this means they have to be carefully used, and most troops prefer the standard lasgun.

In a situation with lots of targets and an extended battle lasting days the Hellgun is not ideal. Still, with all the Replicants and UNSC troops blazing away it probably won't matter.
I have very little faith in the person's judgement insofar as 40K (or anything technical goes) really, so I'm inclined to take his claims with a huge ass grain of salt.

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Post by Lost Soal » 2007-06-02 12:16pm

First, in none of the novels I've read where Hellguns feature do they ever suffer any of the problems he's just listed.

Second, Replicants and UNSC Troops? What the hell is he blabbering on about them for. They don't exist in 40K. It sounds like some made up argument for a verses thread.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-06-02 12:38pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
andrewgpaul wrote:ghetto edit: It appears that a Hellgun and a lasgun with hotshot pack are the same thing. That's how I looked at it all along, anyway.
Did volume 5 call the Grenadier's lasgun a "hellgun" specifically though?
I quoted that bit (albeit without quote tags) a couple of posts up, just previous to the post you quoted.

One possible explanation is that a hellgun is a mass-produced weapon including the coolant shroud over the barrel, whereas a hotshot lasgun is simply a standard lasgun into which the improved power pack from a hellgun has been plugged. Same combat effectiveness, but the hellgun is less likely to overheat, suffer barrel distortion, explode, etc.

An indirect piece of evidence fot eh 'hotshot lasgun = hellgun' thing is that in 2nd edition 40K, Stormtroopers were equipped with hotshot lasguns, which became hellguns in 3rd edition (mind you, the troopers replaced the black fatigues and berets with carapace armour, too).

As for info from the earlier IA books, vol 3 has colour plates of a Raptors Space Marine, a Tau Fire Warrior, a Tallarn tank commander and an Elysian of the 23rd regiment. vol 4 has a Red Scorpions terminator and an Elysian of Detachment D-99 ( specialist Tyranid fighters), plus more 'technical' plates of a Red Scorpions terminator squad and tactical squad, as well as various Elysian Drop Trooper weapons. No real numbers on weapons though.

In addition to the stuff I've previously quoted, IA 5 has a spread on the Ogryn Beserker. There's plates on a Death Korps infantry squad, detailing all their equipment (down to the entrenching tool), heavy weapon squad, field artillery squad and a complete infantry company (consisting, on paper, of 740 men in 10 infantry platoons, 1 heavy weapons platoon and the HQ). It also features a Dark Angels Deathwing squad and tactical squad. Of note is the details on the scope on the bolter - it sends data direct to the Marine's auto-senses. It also finally specifies that heavy bolters fire a larger shell than the longarm and pistol bolt weapons (the only comparable info I've seen before was from the Confrontation game featured in WD, around issue 140, which said bolt pistols, boltguns and heavy bolters all used the same round).
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-05 05:25am

Lost Soal wrote:First, in none of the novels I've read where Hellguns feature do they ever suffer any of the problems he's just listed.
Well like I said, considering the guy who stated it, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. He's rather well known for having a low opinion of the capabilities of 40K (and the Guard) in particular. (For example, he evidently dislikes how Abnett "up-techs" the Guard, even though plenty of other Authors like Jonathan Green and Graham McNeill and Sandy Mitchell put in much the same shit. Evidently only the "Forge World" oriented IG is authentic. :roll:)

Second, Replicants and UNSC Troops? What the hell is he blabbering on about them for. They don't exist in 40K. It sounds like some made up argument for a verses thread.
Well its Spacebattles, so you expect some retarded threads there. I won't even mention how the Hellsing nazi vampires got mixed in there. :P

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-05 05:37am

andrewgpaul wrote: I quoted that bit (albeit without quote tags) a couple of posts up, just previous to the post you quoted.
Apologies, I missed that.
One possible explanation is that a hellgun is a mass-produced weapon including the coolant shroud over the barrel, whereas a hotshot lasgun is simply a standard lasgun into which the improved power pack from a hellgun has been plugged. Same combat effectiveness, but the hellgun is less likely to overheat, suffer barrel distortion, explode, etc.
I'd think that they're just using the term "hellgun" colloquially there, or not "literally", since they call it a "lasgun" as well. I mean long-las use hotshot packs too, but we don't call them hellguns. I'm fairly convinced the "standard" Krieg lasgun (the 21 mt one) is probably close to or nearly "hotshot" grade as it is due to its ammo capacity - the "grenadier" lasgun is probably just a slightly more sophisticated version. (Even hotshots can vary widely.. well so can the standard packs too. Some heavy infantry regiments can use high-powered but shorter ranged lasguns, for example. They were outlined in Grey Knights IIRC.)
An indirect piece of evidence fot eh 'hotshot lasgun = hellgun' thing is that in 2nd edition 40K, Stormtroopers were equipped with hotshot lasguns, which became hellguns in 3rd edition (mind you, the troopers replaced the black fatigues and berets with carapace armour, too).
Yes, I was aware of this. However, they're not treated as quite teh same in terms of game mechanics, so that's kinda circumstantial in that way. In fluff, Hellguns seem a lot more complex than just being "a lasgun with a stronger powerpack", Hotshots seem to be a "quick and dirty" conversion of a lasgun into a hellgun, if you mean that. Hellguns are bigger, more sophisticated, and probably more refined/efficient (and less prone to wearing out.)

Besides, long-las use hotshots, and we don't call them hellguns. And according to "Cities of Death" a regular lasgun can be plugged into any portable or fixed power source (reactor) via some sort of cable and have virtually infinite firepower (and possibly higher output, if for no other reason taht you can fire it on max power without running out of juice.) So you probably could have a lasgun connected to a power source like a hellgun.

Calc-wise, a hotshot lasgun and a hellgun are close in terms of power, but a hellgun has a slightly higher output (comparing for example Larkins Long-las, which can vaporize heads in Sabbat Martyr with a hotshot pack, whereas a hellgun volley can vaporize most/all of a person, as per FTE.)

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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-06-05 05:53pm

Where are you getting these details of the long-las gun from? The Gaunt#s Ghosts series? It seems like the Imperial Guard are now using a totally different style of sniper rifle than they used to :) It's hard to tell, though, because none of the Rulebook, Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Space Marines refer to needle sniper rifles any more.

Oh, by the way, the Agripinaa-pattern autogun is apparently not the same weapon as manufactured on Necromunda; that appears to be the M40 Armageddon pattern (WH40K rulebook, p35). Cosmetically very similar, no details on actual performance, other than the M40 has a 12-round box mag, rather than the 30-round mag on the Agripinaa.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-07 02:31am

andrewgpaul wrote:Where are you getting these details of the long-las gun from? The Gaunt#s Ghosts series? It seems like the Imperial Guard are now using a totally different style of sniper rifle than they used to :) It's hard to tell, though, because none of the Rulebook, Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Space Marines refer to needle sniper rifles any more.
I guess they got kicked out of the Guard around 3rd-4th edition I guess. its hard for me to pinpoint. The long las mainly showed up in various novel series (Gaunt's Ghosts in particular, but also some of the other authors like Sandy Mitchell and I think Jonathan Green used them.) It gets a mention in the 2003 Guard Codex (like the microbeads and tube charges and whatnot) which points to Abnett's influence. But I'm not sure if Abnett is the reason why the needle rifles got dropped (he mentions "needlers" in some books but they aren't the same thing as near as I can tell.) The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer has 'em as well.

I just suppose its like all those other weapons (stubbers, webguns, vortex grenades, etc.) just got written out. Not that it's drastically different - the needle sniper rifle was also a las-weapon, it just had the funky toxic needle effect as well (it could even be used as a las weapon against inorganic targets IIRC.)

As for the "Details" yeah, it comes from the novel fluff, particularily the calculations.

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Post by Ford Prefect » 2007-06-07 04:41am

andrewgpaul wrote:It's hard to tell, though, because none of the Rulebook, Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Space Marines refer to needle sniper rifles any more.
There was a relatively recent Index Astartes article on Scouts that detailed their sniper rifles, which where the pulsing laser/toxin combo (possibly the same sort of stuff used in Hellfire bolts).
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-06-08 07:02pm

Ah. Needle rifles, then. That makes sense, since the crouching scout sniper model is loading a cartridge into his rifle.

is the '03 Guard Codex the updated 3rd ed one with the Doctrines rules?
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Post by Lost Soal » 2007-06-08 07:54pm

One of the short Stories in Let the Galaxy Burn mentions Eldar using Needler's, unfortunatey theirs no telling how old that story is.
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Post by defanatic » 2007-06-09 02:44am

In Inquisitor, hellguns are more powerful lasguns with recharging power packs that you have to carry on your back. It holds more charges than any other type of lasgun (except multi-laser, maybe).
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-06-09 04:17am

Lost Soal wrote:One of the short Stories in Let the Galaxy Burn mentions Eldar using Needler's, unfortunatey theirs no telling how old that story is.
What's the title of that story?
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Post by Steel » 2007-06-09 06:15am

andrewgpaul wrote:
Lost Soal wrote:One of the short Stories in Let the Galaxy Burn mentions Eldar using Needler's, unfortunatey theirs no telling how old that story is.
What's the title of that story?
I think hes talking about "Know Thine Enemy" that has space marines being killed by rangers sniping them with some kind of needle (/small shard firing) rifle.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-10 02:12am

defanatic wrote:In Inquisitor, hellguns are more powerful lasguns with recharging power packs that you have to carry on your back. It holds more charges than any other type of lasgun (except multi-laser, maybe).
Got a quote/page number?

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