Federation vs Halo species

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Federation vs Halo species

Postby Soldier of Entropy » 2006-12-28 09:16pm

Here is the scenario: a wormhole to the paralell universe of Star Trek opens on the border between Covenant and UNSC. The other end of the wormhole is right by the Bajoran wormhole at DS9 (I know it is illogical, but it is a convenient point). The Enterprise-D and Defiant are sent through the wormhole to scout the area and encounter a battle between Covenant and UNSC troops. How do events proceed?

Possible ideas:
Would the Federation decide that the Prime Directive does not apply, as the UNSC is made up of humans which are really an alternate humans of the Federation?

Does the Covenant decide that all humanoid species of the Star Trek universe are simply other versions of humans, and thus must be destroyed? Or do they decide that the humans of the Star Trek universe are not to be blamed, and try to make peace with them? Or perhaps, do they call it all just UNSC propaganda?

What's faster: slipspace or warp drive?

Anything else you can think of!!!
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Postby Batman » 2006-12-28 09:23pm

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Postby Uraniun235 » 2006-12-28 09:39pm

I could be wrong but if I remember right the Federation is so massively outgunned as for this to be a non-issue.
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Postby Uraniun235 » 2006-12-28 09:40pm

Oh also no federation ground army so they're pretty boned there too.
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Postby Batman » 2006-12-28 09:44pm

Something that just occured to me-
given that both the Covenant and therefore Halo Earth are aware of extraterrestrial life AND capable of FTL travel why would the Prime Directive apply in the first place?
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Postby Soldier of Entropy » 2006-12-28 09:45pm

Batman wrote:Something that just occured to me-
given that both the Covenant and therefore Halo Earth are aware of extraterrestrial life AND capable of FTL travel why would the Prime Directive apply in the first place?


The Prime directive also deals with not interfering in already established relations between other species.
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Postby Soldier of Entropy » 2006-12-28 09:48pm

Uraniun235 wrote:I could be wrong but if I remember right the Federation is so massively outgunned as for this to be a non-issue.


Definitely not true. I did some more research on the Halo Wiki and found that, for example, Warp is almost certainly faster than slipspace (see http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Slipspace)
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Postby Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba » 2006-12-28 10:39pm

Soldier of Entropy wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:I could be wrong but if I remember right the Federation is so massively outgunned as for this to be a non-issue.


Definitely not true. I did some more research on the Halo Wiki and found that, for example, Warp is almost certainly faster than slipspace (see http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Slipspace)


That may be true, but while Covenant ships pump out 4(?) gigatons per shot, Federation ships can only take a few hundred megatons, tops. And on the ground, it's an even more horrible butt-fuck. In any confrontation, the Federation would lose.

Assuming every high-and-mighty moral of the UFP was subverted for the purposes of this scenario, I suppose they could mount a rather effective Blitz - send a ship like an Akira to a Covenant world faster than support can be gathered, nuke the shit out of it from orbit, warp away - but unfortunately, the softness of the Feddies will be their downfall. Now the Romulans on the other hand...

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Postby Batman » 2006-12-28 10:47pm

A few hundred megatons? Trek ships regularly fall to single to low double figure numbers of photorps which are MAYBE single-figure MT and omnidirectional to boot. AQ ship resilience is single-figure MT. Maybe.
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Postby Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba » 2006-12-28 10:55pm

Batman wrote:A few hundred megatons? Trek ships regularly fall to single to low double figure numbers of photorps which are MAYBE single-figure MT and omnidirectional to boot. AQ ship resilience is single-figure MT. Maybe.


Notice the "tops". Photorps are anywhere from double-digit KT to double-digit MT, and shield-strength varies from "A couple photorps will kill us" to "it'll take a few minutes before the inertial dampeners start to give out, maybe". Hundreds of Megatons is the highest-end estimate.

But it's a moot point. Whatever happens, Covenant weapons will slice through them like the Arbiter's blade through butter.

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Postby Soldier of Entropy » 2006-12-28 10:58pm

I am sure the UNSC would be interested in an alliance with the Federation, though. I mean, think about it. Phasers and photon torpedos would be at least partially usefull to their ships, and especially hand phasers (the UNSC has no beam/energy weapons) plus, with warp, it could be the edge they need over the covenant. Finally, since all signs show a defeat is coming, or at least very posssible, they would probably be interested in the idea of escaping to the Star Trek universe. This thread was not meant to just talk about a direct conflict; any outcome is fair game for discussion.
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Postby Soldier of Entropy » 2006-12-28 10:59pm

Also, I said it was right next to the Bajoran wormhole. Dominion, anyone?
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Postby Noble Ire » 2006-12-29 01:00am

Soldier of Entropy wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:I could be wrong but if I remember right the Federation is so massively outgunned as for this to be a non-issue.


Definitely not true. I did some more research on the Halo Wiki and found that, for example, Warp is almost certainly faster than slipspace (see http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Slipspace)


Several portions of Ghosts of Onyx indicate that Covenant warships are capable of traversing significant swaths of space, perhaps the full length of the Orion arm (the Covenant colony Joyus Exhultation, which lay beyond the edge of human space to Onyx, for example) in well under a day. If that is the case, slipspace travel is vastly faster than the swiftest Starfleet vessel. However, the actual distance between the two worlds is never stated, and other examples of Covenant FTL are equally nebulous, so the matter is still unclear.

I am sure the UNSC would be interested in an alliance with the Federation, though. I mean, think about it. Phasers and photon torpedos would be at least partially usefull to their ships, and especially hand phasers (the UNSC has no beam/energy weapons) plus, with warp, it could be the edge they need over the covenant.


What good are beam weapons if they are an order of magnitude less powerful than what the Covenant, and in some cases the UNSC itself, employ? Besides, Covenant shields are specifically designed to repulse energy weapons; that's why human technology is effective at all.

Finally, since all signs show a defeat is coming, or at least very posssible, they would probably be interested in the idea of escaping to the Star Trek universe. This thread was not meant to just talk about a direct conflict; any outcome is fair game for discussion.


That, at least, would be something worth considering, assuming that the Covenant didn't discover the transition and decide to follow.

Also, I said it was right next to the Bajoran wormhole. Dominion, anyone?


Even assuming Dominion intervention would significantly aid the Federation's cause, which it probably wouldn't considering known firepower disparities involved, what would induce them to fight? They're not exactly know for their charity or compassion for human kind.
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Postby Soldier of Entropy » 2006-12-29 07:53am

I believe that you may have misunderstood my dominion comment. They might attack, as they are afraid of any "solids." Also, if they didn't attack, the covenant might offer them membership, as they definitely wouldn't view them as human-i am not entirely sure on this, but doesn't the covenant offer any non-human species membership?
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Postby Soldier of Entropy » 2006-12-29 08:05am

Noble Ire wrote:
Soldier of Entropy wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:I could be wrong but if I remember right the Federation is so massively outgunned as for this to be a non-issue.



Definitely not true. I did some more research on the Halo Wiki and found that, for example, Warp is almost certainly faster than slipspace (see http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Slipspace)

Faster than Human ships I should have said. Maybe not an edge over the covenant, but at least an improvement and something the covenant doesnt have. Plus, if you recall, I never ruled out an alliance between the covenant and humans from Star Trek. It all depends whether the Covenant views them as equally responsible for whatever the covenant holds humans of the Halo universe responsible for; that is, however they were "an affront to the gods" according to the Covenant page of the Halo Wiki.
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Postby Aaron » 2006-12-29 03:17pm

Soldier of Entropy wrote:I am sure the UNSC would be interested in an alliance with the Federation, though. I mean, think about it. Phasers and photon torpedos would be at least partially usefull to their ships, and especially hand phasers (the UNSC has no beam/energy weapons) plus, with warp, it could be the edge they need over the covenant. Finally, since all signs show a defeat is coming, or at least very posssible, they would probably be interested in the idea of escaping to the Star Trek universe. This thread was not meant to just talk about a direct conflict; any outcome is fair game for discussion.


Why the hell would the UNSC want anything to do with phasers? Their own weapons are just fine and in fact superior to anything the Federation fields in small arms. THe fact that the UNSC Army in fact actually wins their ground engagements against Covenant forces tells me that their tech is perfect. And retooling to use phasers and photon torpedoes (both inferior to UNSC technology, both small arms and ship mounted) would be monumentally stupid.
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Postby Sephirius » 2006-12-29 03:47pm

Just adding to the Cpl's point -
it takes a whackload of plasma bolts to take down an elite, but only one shotgun shell :D
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Postby Soldier of Entropy » 2006-12-29 03:59pm

Still, as I said, this never had to be a direct confrontation. Some speculation on whether or not a direct conflict would be the end result, and what else could happen, please! I personally think that a direct conflict could be likely, but what else do you think could happen?
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Postby Solauren » 2006-12-29 07:13pm

Covenent;
Most likely decides that all human/nearhumans are a problem (remember, Star Trek humanoids are all descended from one 'progenitor' species) and must be elminated.

Genetic analysis would reveal there relation or at least cross-breeding capability. Usually, sexual viable hybrid offspring mains species relation. (i.e Dogs and Wolves, various Great Cat species, Horse subtypes).

The Cov's decide that Star Trek must fall.

Halo-Humans
Probably ask for help. I can imagine the devestating effect Halo weapons fired from a Warp-driven ship would do. Arm an Akira with Halo warheads and off ya go

Star Trek
The Cov is genocidable and aggressive. Odds are, they'd reaise they'd have to fight.

The concept of a Federation-Romulan-Klingon-Cardassian-Dominion-Breen-Whomever else would see the Covienant as a threat- Halo Humans vs Cov'ie war is interesting, to say the least. The Alliance would have speed advantage, but would get owned in military engagements with the Cov's.

It would be one hell of a war, and I'll give it to the Alliance, but it would be very devestating.

However, if the Cov's get a working Warp Drive and can reverse-engineer it quickly, or even worse, adapt there drives to work on as Warp drives and at Warp speed, then that war would go badly for everyone.

On the plus side, the idea of Jem'ha'dar arguing with Spartan's is funny

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Postby brianeyci » 2006-12-29 07:52pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Oh also no federation ground army so they're pretty boned there too.


Tsk tsk how could you forget Nor the Battle Too Strong and the Federation soldier Jake saw kick the can. He was wearing some kind of rubberized uniform, evidence of a totally separate uniform from fleet, and he was a soldier. The Federation clearly has regulars wearing rubberized phaser resistant uniforms (which would really suck in a hot environment, dehydrate soldiers like shit and probably need a fucking IV just to keep him alive, but oh well).

First forgetting the high definition pictures of Spock's antimatter injectors, now forgetting one obscure extra in a special uniform. Next you'll be telling me Kirk wore a green shirt, and Picard was gay. You're getting old, time to move over for the next generation of Trekkies.

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Postby Uraniun235 » 2006-12-29 08:12pm

brianeyci wrote:The Federation clearly has regulars wearing rubberized phaser resistant uniforms (which would really suck in a hot environment, dehydrate soldiers like shit and probably need a fucking IV just to keep him alive, but oh well).

First forgetting the high definition pictures of Spock's antimatter injectors, now forgetting one obscure extra in a special uniform. Next you'll be telling me Kirk wore a green shirt, and Picard was gay. You're getting old, time to move over for the next generation of Trekkies.

How "rubberized" are we talking? I mean US Army troops wear those big flak jackets and those can't be terribly cool either.

Besides, one obscure extra in a series I've only half-watched... no, I think I've still got a few years left. :P
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Postby brianeyci » 2006-12-29 08:16pm

Uraniun235 wrote:How "rubberized" are we talking? I mean US Army troops wear those big flak jackets and those can't be terribly cool either.


I'm too lazy to look for a screencap so... about an inch thick at the wrist. Last time I brought it up, the mess came in and ridiculed it as ignoring everything mankind knew about body armor.

Besides, one obscure extra in a series I've only half-watched... no, I think I've still got a few years left. :P


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Postby Balrog » 2006-12-29 11:53pm

brianeyci wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:Oh also no federation ground army so they're pretty boned there too.


Tsk tsk how could you forget Nor the Battle Too Strong and the Federation soldier Jake saw kick the can. He was wearing some kind of rubberized uniform, evidence of a totally separate uniform from fleet, and he was a soldier.

Even if it's true (my memory of the episode is foggy) and it's equally resistant to Covvie plasma weapons, what good is a rubberized suit going to do against a flying piece of shrapnel, or Needler shots, or the Brute gun? Federation 'soldiers' don't even wear helmets, much less have the level of protection energy shields offer to Covenant ground forces; hell, they don't even have anything that can take down a Wraith, much less a Scarab.
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Postby brianeyci » 2006-12-30 01:04am

It's not any good at all. It's a useless nitpick so I can annoy U235 about his failing Treklore. I wouldn't have made it if the thread was any serious at all, but just a quick search and you can tell it's too big of a firepower difference, so might as well get some fun out of this.

Everybody in Trek is optimized to fight other Trek powers and would do poorly fighting most other science fiction, even if you take Trek at their best. The rubber trooper armor, if that's what it is, is probably only useful on phasers and disruptors. If ramming speed works in Star Trek, railguns would devastate Trek ships.

By the way, needler guns are fucking stupid.

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Postby Noble Ire » 2006-12-30 02:14am

brianeyci wrote:By the way, needler guns are fucking stupid.


The Covenant war machine is not exactly streamlined for effectiveness. Although its not a hard and fast rule (there are certainly practical Sangheili commanders, like the Arbiter and Rtas 'Vadumee), Prophet and Elite military doctrine seems to revolve around maintaining ancient strategies and technology even when they become obsolete and ensuring that battles, especially ground conflicts, are as glorious and violent as possible, either for personal honor or for that of their gods. What could be more glorious than pumping a sniveling human worm full of huge, jagged crystals and then walking through a rain of its entrails after the shards explode violently?

To be quite frank, the Covenant is quite deficient when looked at from an objective, military standpoint, especially considering the fact that it does use a tenth of its technology's capabilities because of theological limitations. Nevertheless, Covenant tactical and strategic abilities are still impeccable compared to the utter retardation of their Federation counterparts; the technological disparity is simply another nail in Starfleet's coffin.
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