Why (nBSG) Starbuck's fucking annoying.

[Stofsk]

That's true. Roslin AKA President Airlock, is a goddamn religious nutbar and who has all the predictable moral qualities of one. She's also a baby snatcher, and her reasons for doing that don't even appear rational or humane.

Her reaons for doing it were rational if not "humane". Like she said, the Cylons went to a lot of trouble for this baby to be conceived. Making them think it no longer existed by taking her out of Athena's hands and making everyone believe she was dead (there still being Cylons in the fleet) was adviseable at that point in time- Athena had not proven she could be trusted.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Her rationale was "The Cylons think this is important; ergo, we should do the opposite of that" which matters how? For all she could know, this was some elaborate curiosity on the Cylon's part, rather than a major development of their plan. In other words, she assumed the baby was integral to the Cylon's plans. This makes her actions one based out of fear - the fear the Cylons will discover baby Athena was alive, and that this will somehow advance their plans - rather than rationality.

Furthermore, in real life if society doesn't think a group of parents are capable of raising a child they take the child away - legally, with (one presumes) evidence to back it up. This was a recourse Roslin never even considered - she babysnatched the child away, faked it's death, and then participated in an elaborate coverup. This hurt not only Athena but also Helo. She can dismiss Athena as another toaster and blast her out an airlock if she could get the chance, but Helo is a flesh and blood human being - the fact she could this to him is also obscene (though I would argue that Athena cannot be reduced to a mere machine and thus be treated with so incredible an amount of contempt that Roslin showed her).

[Crown]

That's true. Roslin AKA President Airlock, is a goddamn religious nutbar and who has all the predictable moral qualities of one. She's also a baby snatcher, and her reasons for doing that don't even appear rational or humane.

I'm getting so sick of people referring to President Ice 'Stands-With-A-Fist' Blood as a 'religious nutbar'. The scrolls of Pythica said that the arrow of Apollo would open the tomb of Athena and show the way to Earth. Guess what ... IT FUCKING DID.

Now if this hadn't come about you all might have a case, but it is clear that whether through design by a deity or from mundane intelligence which over the years has been shrouded into myth as a deity, the ancient scrolls are based on fact. So lay off, she isn't nBSG's Bush equivalent; 'God told me to invade Iraq.' She's more like Schliemann than that.

As to the subject at hand; I hated Starbuck when she was the Mary Sue 'I'm the best shot in or out of a cockpit', I honestly don't mind that she is a sociopath, in fact I like that, but it is time that she started slowly to redeem herself somewhat.

[The Grim Squeaker]

It's very interesting that Baltar is arguably worse in terms of damage he has caused - the genocide of the Colonies, lying to Boomer about her test results, stabbing Roslin in the back and running for President, New Caprica - yet people still forgive him because he's 'likeable'.

Its rather common in fiction, Darth Vader killer of millions (And idol of millions) anyone?

[Covenant]

It's very interesting that Baltar is arguably worse in terms of damage he has caused - the genocide of the Colonies, lying to Boomer about her test results, stabbing Roslin in the back and running for President, New Caprica - yet people still forgive him because he's 'likeable'.

Its rather common in fiction, Darth Vader killer of millions (And idol of millions) anyone?

Ick! Who forgives him? I'd strangle him as I held his face under water. Like Vader, Baltar has the capacity to steal the show at some point in the future. SW was a melodrama, but nBSG hasn't used that high of a dramatic voice yet, so he merely looks like a Gollumy sort of creep. Which is fine!

I think we just LIKE him more, because he's likable. In some ways didn't you want Vader to win? Or at least keep on truckin'? It's not anything about wanting to forgive him, but Villians always get the best lines, the best costumes, and they have an appealing degree of freedom to them. Heroes can be unsatisfyingly incompetant. It's rare you get a good, strong, cynical hero without getting an anti-hero. Adama in nBSG is pretty close. Do the people who hate nBSG (GINO?) also hate Adama's character?

[Vympel]

I'm getting so sick of people referring to President Ice 'Stands-With-A-Fist' Blood as a 'religious nutbar'. The scrolls of Pythica said that the arrow of Apollo would open the tomb of Athena and show the way to Earth. Guess what ... IT FUCKING DID.

The scene where Roslin went through every thing that had transpired and what the Scrolls said (ie. "fact: the scrolls say so and so, fact: so and so is true, fact: ...") was a great scene.

[Turin]

I think we just LIKE him more, because he's likable. In some ways didn't you want Vader to win? Or at least keep on truckin'?

Vader was undeniably cooler than, say, Luke -- but frankly Luke was a dork. But I can't say I ever felt like I wanted Vader to win at any point in the original trilogy (except for that last redeeming moment when he throws the Emperor). The new trilogy messes with this somewhat, but I think ultimately Vader is the opposite of the anti-hero we're talking about with Baltar... a genuine through-and-through villain except for that final moment.

It's not anything about wanting to forgive him, but Villians always get the best lines, the best costumes, and they have an appealing degree of freedom to them. Heroes can be unsatisfyingly incompetant. It's rare you get a good, strong, cynical hero without getting an anti-hero. Adama in nBSG is pretty close. Do the people who hate nBSG (GINO?) also hate Adama's character?

There are hero characters in scifi that overdo the Good Guy image, but Han Solo and Mal Reynolds are both good examples of the Cynical Hero archetype that resonate with audiences. Adama is a character like this, but Baltar definitely is not.

Slightly more on topic, there's an interesting potential redemption for both Baltar and Starbuck. Baltar can really only redeem himself through sacrificing himself, I think (continuing the twisted Christ theme, incidentally). Essentially redeeming himself only in his last moment, much like Vader. Whereas Starbuck can be redeemed but only by fundamentally changing her personality over a long period of time and making amends for the emotional hurt she's done to others (she can't really redeem herself for causing the deaths of others, but I'm fairly certain this will end up being glossed over by the writers).

[TheDarkling]

The entire crew is made up of people who make questionable decision and only some of them get called on it.

Look at the Adama, held in demi-god like esteem by fans and characters a like.

Initially he (like Starbuck in that list) was willing to abandon the civilian fleet just for personal gratification (going down fighting against the Cylons in some vain attempt at payback).

He put the civilian fleet at risk, in addition to wasting fuel plus adding wear and tear to vipers in a quest to save Starbuck (even after the point when it was obvious she was dead to anybody looking at the facts available) just because he felt guilty over his last conversation with her.

He deposed the lawful President just because she disagreed with him (and was right) and exercised what is probably her legal rights under the law.

In this action he set up the no win situation hat Tigh found himself in when he took command (although Tigh's drinking arm and Lacy Mactigh pushed the situation to it's worst).

He was again willing to abandon the civilian fleet and willing to let humanity splinter because some of the fleet chose to follow the President and her (again quite right) mission.

He refused to listen to Tigh's warnings that Cain couldn't be trusted.

He bottled taking out Cain and only escaped because he got very lucky n that Cain also momentarily backed down and that Gina came to his rescue.

He is directly responsible for Baltar being President and the New Caprica disaster, not because of his respect for democracy (which his previous coup demonstrates he doesn't really have) but because he thought it would destroy his friends spirit (for those keeping score at home that is twice Tigh or all people has been right on issues that Adama wasn't).

Lets weigh one woman's spirit against putting the human race in jeopardy shall we?

Then he goes forth with a rescue plan for the people on New Caprica which had zero chance until Lee disobeyed orders and came riding to the rescue.

Now this isn't to say I don't think Adama isn't a good man or even that he is a bad commander (and I fully expect to see dozens riding to defend the Adama-Saviour for what will be perceived as an attack on him) only that just about everybody on the series screws up regularly and often spectacularly.


Of course with that said Starbuck is a fairly reprehensible person at the moment (although I dislike Baltar more simply because he acted in manner far exceeding Starbucks, I doubt she would gie the Cylons a nuke in a fit of pique like he did) but it is worth remembering that there isn't a huge gulf between her and the rest of the regulars in the decision making department.

[Patrick Degan]

Well... bang goes any danger I might develop an interest in nBSG. I mean, really, this sort of soap-operaish bullshit was one of the things which put me off Deep Sleep Nine.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I have to say that Starbuck has made the third season pretty much unwatchable. If it weren't for the slight hints of Earth's location and some fo the actors' skills, I would have stopped watching completely.

Also, this season has had a lot of really, really stupid moments.

[Crom]

I think what bothers me about Starbuck is that the writer's seem to think I would care about her relationships. I would much rather that the show get a little bit less relationship focused. Go ahead and keep the messed up relationships, it just would be nice if they were pushed a little bit more the periphery and we get to see people be professional about things.

It would be nice to see Starbuck do something that wouldn't make me cringe. Even in that scene (SPOILER)






where she gave Kat the sleeping pills, I imagined that writers wanted the viewers to see that as a benevolent act when it came off to me as pretty fucked up.

I understand the concept of the anti-hero but they already have the ultimate anti-hero of Baltar, a man constructed entirely out of human flaws. Starbuck's emotional agony, which seems to propel her through the series, seems to have no foundation in reality. I at least like Lee Adama because his character is constantly struggling to do what he thinks is right.

[Stofsk]

I have to say that Starbuck has made the third season pretty much unwatchable. If it weren't for the slight hints of Earth's location and some fo the actors' skills, I would have stopped watching completely.

Also, this season has had a lot of really, really stupid moments.

Agreed. Season three has been positively tepid in comparison to the first two seasons.

I didn't like the New Caprica subplot. I didn't like the character arcs of a lot of the characters (like Apollo, Starbuck, Tigh). The first four episodes seemed like an elaborate reset button but I can forgive it to an extent - however, the more I remember Pegasus's firey end the more I roll my eyes. If both Battlestars had gone on this mission both would have stood a reasonable chance of surviving, particularly with the battleplan Adama came up with. The only reason why Pegasus was destroyed was writer's fiat.

Now, there have been some highlights: Baltar and his adventures in the Cylon Basestar have me intrigued. A lot of episodes this season have been utter shit, but their one saving grace was Baltar. Other than that, Helo and Athena have found out that their baby is alive, and we finally have the plot pointed in the direction of earth.

It's really something how a year ago I was wondering what the hell is going to happen next on nBSG (re: the mid-season cliffhanger) whereas this time around I am only vaguely interested.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

^ Total agreement with the last two points. I really, really enjoyed the New Caprica arc, but it was over way too fast and everything since then has been, well, pretty shitty.

[Sam Or I]

Baltar is the MacBeth of the series.

I thinking the best thing to do with Starbuck would to break her back. That way she would no longer have her "skill set" to cover up her flaws. I know they played with it in the first season with a broken leg, but I don't think they took it far enough. Put the bitch in a wheel chair, make her face her sins with out her tools which she usually falls back on. This takes away sex, her piloting ability, her ability to be used as a soilder, which leave us with her tactical ability. It would create some good drama. Too bad they took away Kat, if Kat turned out to be almost an image of Starbuck as if she was now looking in on herself, it would be awesome story telling. Maybe they can start doing that with Hotdog ? Just what I would do. She can be redeemed but not in a single episode.

Roslin has not done to much this season, personally I think she needs to start having "religious" visions again. Heck make her a cylon model. They need to show more of her this season, her character is loosing importance. Personally I think SHE should have been the one going down to the planet to find the Eye of Zues, err, I mean Jupiter.

Baltar and Adama make the show, then to a lesser extent Roslin. Next would be Six and Boomer/Athena. I see everyone else as expendable.

[Vympel]

Agreed. Season three has been positively tepid in comparison to the first two seasons.

I disagree. I think "Collaborators" for example was a fantastic episode that easily matches anything that's happened in previous seasons for sheer ... erm ... untepidness?

however, the more I remember Pegasus's firey end the more I roll my eyes. If both Battlestars had gone on this mission both would have stood a reasonable chance of surviving, particularly with the battleplan Adama came up with. The only reason why Pegasus was destroyed was writer's fiat.

I don't know about that- re: the chances. Remember that to destroy the Resurrection Ship and a mere two Basestars, Cain needed Pegasus and Galactica. And we're supposed to believe that two half-strength Battlestars are going to stand a reasonable chance of surviving against four Basestars without one of them giving up their life, never mind some of the Vipers having to assist the escape of the civilian ships?

There was of course a chance that both of them could've made it out, but there were no guarantees. The more I think about everything that happened, I don't think Apollo can be reasonably faulted for the approach he took. He's not omniscient. He went in assuming worst case scenario, leaving everything behind he could. As it stands, Galactica didn't kill any Basestars and Pegasus at most damaged one severely and only destroyed two more by a suicidal ramming attack.

Of course, it was still writer's fiat- it always is. The reason is simple- they wrote Apollo as Pegasus commander and dramatically, he wouldn't be in close proximity to any of the other cast unless they got rid of Pegasus. So they did.

[Stofsk]

I disagree. I think "Collaborators" for example was a fantastic episode that easily matches anything that's happened in previous seasons for sheer ... erm ... untepidness?

The problem I had with that episode was Gaeta having to actually say he was the source inside the Baltar administration... it's like everyone had their IQs drop to their knees. It was entirely obvious that he was the source even if he didn't say so right away. I just got a bad vibe out of that episode. It seemed like the characters were stupid because the writers wanted them stupid, so that they could do that pathos scene at the end where their stupidity could be revealed to them and they could feel stupid.

Other than that, it was a good episode.

Of course, it was still writer's fiat- it always is. The reason is simple- they wrote Apollo as Pegasus commander and dramatically, he wouldn't be in close proximity to any of the other cast unless they got rid of Pegasus. So they did.

I find it a more compelling idea to have Apollo stay as Pegasus commander, his character evolving as a result. He loses his command and then gets put back into the role he was in before he got his promotion - CAG. This was one of those 'reset button' moments. I actually would have welcomed him growing as a character and not being in close proximity to the other cast members, particularly how that was one of the plot developments that would have happened in Richard Hatch's continuation idea.

Pegasus's death was too cute. It died taking two Basestars down with it - don't these things take evasive maneuvers, or do they like just sitting there getting chewed up? - everyone got out of there neatly, and when they returned to Galactica it was like everything was back to normal. If they wanted to destroy Pegasus then they could have written it better - have both ships jump into the rescue but Pegasus is lost during the mission. But I guess they had to have the "Lee comes in at the last second to save Galactica lol!" moment. I mean, it's such a necessary cliche.

[Crom]

I wish that the Galactica had been destroyed at New Caprica and the Pegasus had escaped, with most of the Galactica's crew. Then, once they rejoined the fleet, they changed the Pegasus's name to Galactica. I think that would have been pretty cool and would have been a way to keep the Pegasus and the name of the show.

[Vympel]

The problem I had with that episode was Gaeta having to actually say he was the source inside the Baltar administration... it's like everyone had their IQs drop to their knees.[ It was entirely obvious that he was the source even if he didn't say so right away.

Erm- how? It was obvious to us, because we saw him. I don't see how it would be obvious to the characters in the show. This is a man who worshipped the ground Baltar stepped on from the start. He was almost a fanboy. He's also the reason Baltar became President (discovering the fraud), and Tigh knew that. The notion that Gaeta, Baltar's lackey, was assisting the Resistance is outrageous in light of just those facts.

I find it a more compelling idea to have Apollo stay as Pegasus commander, his character evolving as a result. He loses his command and then gets put back into the role he was in before he got his promotion - CAG. This was one of those 'reset button' moments.

He also ceased being Fat In Space

I actually would have welcomed him growing as a character and not being in close proximity to the other cast members, particularly how that was one of the plot developments that would have happened in Richard Hatch's continuation idea.

Meh, I can't imagine how him being alone on Pegasus with Dualla would assist his growth. IMO, he should never have been made Commander in the first place. Tigh has constantly whinged that he didn't want a command. That's who you give Pegasus to if you want growth.

Pegasus's death was too cute. It died taking two Basestars down with it - don't these things take evasive maneuvers, or do they like just sitting there getting chewed up?

It's not like Battlestars and Basestars are maneuverable- Battlestars have never evaded incoming fire either.

- everyone got out of there neatly, and when they returned to Galactica it was like everything was back to normal. If they wanted to destroy Pegasus then they could have written it better - have both ships jump into the rescue but Pegasus is lost during the mission. But I guess they had to have the "Lee comes in at the last second to save Galactica lol!" moment. I mean, it's such a necessary cliche.

Yeah, everyone saw that "here comes the cavalry" scene coming. Of course, Pegasus being destroyed in the process was surprising.

[Vympel]

I wish that the Galactica had been destroyed at New Caprica and the Pegasus had escaped, with most of the Galactica's crew. Then, once they rejoined the fleet, they changed the Pegasus's name to Galactica. I think that would have been pretty cool and would have been a way to keep the Pegasus and the name of the show.

I hope you're joking- I know I was when I IIRC suggested it. I know the Pegasus was a beautiful ship and every nBSG fan gets all hot and bothered when they see a new ship (Battlestar Valkyrie!) but that's a bit far to go to save a cool(er) design, don't you think?

The show's called Battlestar Galactica. It's also bad taste to rename a warship generally- and how would they change the ship name on the flight pods?

And, from a practical perspective- such a thing costs money. The Pegasus sets were gotten cheap from the failed Lost in Space pilot and done up, that's the only way they could afford it in the first place. But basing the show on Pegasus entirely would require lots of money to flesh out the ship in a way that they didn't need to when it was just a secondary location (ie. prison cell, Admiral's quarters, CiC, one corridor).

It doesn't matter that much, from a dramatic perspective, if an advanced Battlestar like Pegasus or an old bucket like Galactica is the only ship left.

[Crom]

I hope you're joking- I know I was when I IIRC suggested it. I know the Pegasus was a beautiful ship and every nBSG fan gets all hot and bothered when they see a new ship (Battlestar Valkyrie!) but that's a bit far to go to save a cool(er) design, don't you think?

I actually was serious when I wrote that so now I feel embarrassed. I admit that I was a big fan of the Pegasus and it hurt to see it go. I especially enjoyed that the Pegasus looks far more like the oBSG Battlestar designs.

Arguing from a practical standpoint, even Admiral Adama recognized that the Pegasus was more valuable to the fleet than the Bucket. But yes, you're correct, it is a bit far to go to save a cool design.

The show's called Battlestar Galactica. It's also bad taste to rename a warship generally- and how would they change the ship name on the flight pods?

I didn't realize it was bad taste to rename a warship. Actually, and embarrassingly, my only real experience with renaming of ships comes from Star Trek, specifically a novel co-written by Shatner, during which a Defiant-class starship is renamed Enterprise.

As for changing the name on the flight pods, I'm sure Starbuck would turn out to be an expert in ship design and modification, and with a little elbow greese and Outside-the-Box-Thinking (TM), she would fix it up in no time.

Which may be too bitter, , and I don't want to come off as a misogynist or irrational.

And, from a practical perspective- such a thing costs money. The Pegasus sets were gotten cheap from the failed Lost in Space pilot and done up, that's the only way they could afford it in the first place. But basing the show on Pegasus entirely would require lots of money to flesh out the ship in a way that they didn't need to when it was just a secondary location (ie. prison cell, Admiral's quarters, CiC, one corridor).

The financial issue I never considered, I guess that would explain why we actually saw so little of Pegasus. In my scenario I just assumed they would continue using Galactica sets since I assumed that warships of similar design are probably, at least by interior asthetics, fairly similar.

Of course not it hits me that Pegasus was also stuffed full of things that Galactica was intentionally without, sci-fi technology like automatic doors and advanced computers.

It doesn't matter that much, from a dramatic perspective, if an advanced Battlestar like Pegasus or an old bucket like Galactica is the only ship left.

Ah, but the Pegasus can produce Vipers. How useful would that be later on in the series assuming (perhaps a bit optimistically) roughly ten seasons like Stargate?

[Stofsk]

Erm- how?

Common sense, really. All the points you bring up are true but they're not damning evidence, and the characters were going to space Gaeta simply because they were morons. As far as his connection to the resistance goes, while it was true that he idolised Baltar it's also true that Gaeta has been a member of the crew for however many years prior to that. Given that we didn't see anyone else in Baltar's administration who could have that personal connection to his former shipmates, I think it's quite obvious that if anyone was going to be the source it was him. At the very least, they should have interrogated him straight away and get the truth rather than this 'loller let's kidnap him push him around and then threaten to blow him out the airlock'.

What can I say? I like Gaeta. And I fucking detest every last sonofabitch that participated in that 'shadow tribunal' farce. At least Anders had the integrity to realise what a bunch of bullshit it was, and quit.

He also ceased being Fat In Space

I still don't understand what they were doing with that. It's as though they turned him fat solely to get EJO to say the line "fatass".

Meh, I can't imagine how him being alone on Pegasus with Dualla would assist his growth. IMO, he should never have been made Commander in the first place. Tigh has constantly whinged that he didn't want a command. That's who you give Pegasus to if you want growth.

Um. Why not promote Tigh to Commander, Galactica? Adama's an Admiral, he can't get bogged down with the day-to-day running of the ship, he has to look after both battlestars and the civvies.

Pegasus's death was too cute. It died taking two Basestars down with it - don't these things take evasive maneuvers, or do they like just sitting there getting chewed up?

It's not like Battlestars and Basestars are maneuverable- Battlestars have never evaded incoming fire either.

That's always bothered me actually.

Yeah, everyone saw that "here comes the cavalry" scene coming. Of course, Pegasus being destroyed in the process was surprising.

It was - I thought Galactica was actually going to perish when I saw the intro sequence. I saw this Battlestar on fire as it plunged through the atmosphere of New Caprica and I thought "Holy shit, did they just slay her?"

That was a massive psych-out. Especially when we found out what that brief shot really meant. Of course, I would rather have had both battlestars in the fight from the beginning and one of them perishing during the course of the battle, if you absolutely, positively, MUST have one of them die. I'd rather neither died though - I like Pegasus.

[weemadando]

Starbuck is singlehandedly killing nBSG. Kill the bitch off and get it done with. She has ruined every episode in s3 with her fucking terribly written character and IMO bad acting.

[Uraniun235]

I wouldn't say it's bad acting. I think the actress is doing a fine job of portraying the character; we just happen to hate the character.

My problem is that Starbuck's ego goes unchallenged. Apollo just whines about how she gets to bend the rules, and she just sees that as resentment. Someone needs to be able to bust her down a couple of notches, even moreso than what Adama did.

[weemadando]

I would say its bad acting, she almost hams it up with her fucking facial expressions.

[tim31]

I actually was serious when I wrote that so now I feel embarrassed. I admit that I was a big fan of the Pegasus and it hurt to see it go. I especially enjoyed that the Pegasus looks far more like the oBSG Battlestar designs.

I rewatched Pegasus the other day and felt like I was seeing an old friend when the big Beast appeared on screen "like a dream." Then I choked up when the camera panned up to Galactica's DRADIS screen: BATTLESTAR
PEGASUS

[Darwin]

I wouldn't say it's bad acting. I think the actress is doing a fine job of portraying the character; we just happen to hate the character.

My problem is that Starbuck's ego goes unchallenged. Apollo just whines about how she gets to bend the rules, and she just sees that as resentment. Someone needs to be able to bust her down a couple of notches, even moreso than what Adama did.

Maybe this is what we get when we don't have Tigh riding Starbuck's ass for a year and a half? Granted, the girl's had a pretty fracked up time of last five years or so. Granted, the Galactica needs all the good pilots she can spare. Granted, everyone's under a lot of stress with this whole 'survival of mankind' thing. Still, Starbuck seems out of control. Maybe after the busting she got from the old man, she doesn't fell she has anything left to lose? If Bill starts showing her some affection again, she just might turn around for him. She also formed a close bond with Tigh during the Second Exodus as they had both been through a lot on New Caprica. With Tigh back, she might shape up. Right now though she's still more of a mess and a liability.

Do I hate the character? Nah. But I don't have much sympathy for her either. I can even ignore some of her Golden Girl, Mary Sue aspects. So she's the best shot in the fleet? I can go with that. I've never been in the military and I can outshoot most Marines. Pyramid? Well she's good, but remember Anders was more interested in scoring than making points. In all ways, she kind of reminds me of a combat-optimized RPG character. Really good at what she does, but inept at everything else (Including social skills) and sort of played with the mentality of a 14-year old. I don't think she's CAPABLE of being in a proper relationship until she starts acting more mature. I don't think we're supposed to like her as she is right now though.