What happened between TMP and TWOK?

[Uraniun235]

Do you think that there was another five year mission (or at least, some sort of regular duty) after the events of The Motion Picture, as perhaps portrayed by the novels and comic books? Or was Enterprise immediately pressed into training service?

Personally, I'm inclined to think that there must have been something between TMP and TWOK; for Starfleet to totally rebuild a ship only to immediately turn around and consign it to training duty seems a bit absurd to me.

[brianeyci]

Miranda?

Wing phasers more powerful, weapons pod... maybe Starfleet was phasing out its Constitutions. Last minute cancellations are not unheard of in war, well they are not in a war but if everything was hair trigger with the Klingons they could've been constantly upgrading and retrofitting Constitutions and the Enterprise was just the end of it.

[Genii Lodus]

Personally I don't feel as if the Enterprise had been a training vessel for particularly long by the point Kirk came onboard in TWoK. This feeling comes from Kirk's dialogue which felt to me as if he were seeing the training vessel Enterprise for the first time, but I feel as if Admiral Kirk would come and monitor the old bird at the first opportunity. Spock also seems to be slightly trying to prove himself in the film, at least in the beginning. This would reinforce the idea that the Enterprise was only newly assigned its role as training ship.

[Stofsk]

Miranda?

Wing phasers more powerful, weapons pod... maybe Starfleet was phasing out its Constitutions.

It masses less than a Constitution, which means less space for the powerplant as well as less cargo, which makes me doubt any claim that it was more powerful or had an equivalent endurance. The fact Kahn had to sneak up on Enterprise and get in a few hits before its shields could be raised doesn't instill any confidence in me over the design. If Kirk had followed regulations it's doubtful Reliant would have been such a terror, but then we wouldn't have had a movie.

Starfleet was phasing out its Connies... in favour of the Excelsiors. Mirandas are little more than glorified destroyers.

[Uraniun235]

I'm inclined to suspect that the Constitution's biggest advantage is endurance, given it's huge cargo capacity and ample crew facilities.

Miranda?

Wing phasers more powerful, weapons pod... maybe Starfleet was phasing out its Constitutions. Last minute cancellations are not unheard of in war, well they are not in a war but if everything was hair trigger with the Klingons they could've been constantly upgrading and retrofitting Constitutions and the Enterprise was just the end of it.

What explains the Ent-A then? ST5 seems to suggest that the -A had been recently refit as well, especially given the newer interior styling.

Part of me really likes the idea of the beautiful refit-Enterprise out on one last tour of duty before TWOK happened, even if there isn't any hard evidence to say so.

[Alyeska]

The Constitution Refit appears to be something that takes a previously outdated ship and makes it useable. Like taking the hull of a ship and updating everything else. Probably cheaper then building an entirely new ship. While the Miranda is more combat effective per size, the Constitution Refit has the advantage of relative endurance by size. Harder to disable the ship and kill it.

[Alyeska]

Miranda?

Wing phasers more powerful, weapons pod... maybe Starfleet was phasing out its Constitutions.

It masses less than a Constitution, which means less space for the powerplant as well as less cargo, which makes me doubt any claim that it was more powerful or had an equivalent endurance. The fact Kahn had to sneak up on Enterprise and get in a few hits before its shields could be raised doesn't instill any confidence in me over the design. If Kirk had followed regulations it's doubtful Reliant would have been such a terror, but then we wouldn't have had a movie.

Starfleet was phasing out its Connies... in favour of the Excelsiors. Mirandas are little more than glorified destroyers.

Firepower wise the Miranda has the relative advantage over the Constitution. Better firing arcs, more torpedo capacity, relative equal phaser capacity. Might have a smaller power plant, but its also smaller in size to compensate on the issue of shields. The Miranda is capable for what it is, but lacks the endurance in combat and range given its smaller size.

In a straight up fight the Miranda would have probably a 50/50 chance of beating a Constitution. The problem is Khan doesn't know how to captain a Starship nor does he truly comprehend its strengths and weaknesses. Worse, Khan doesn't want a 50/50 chance. He wants his best chance at victory. So he pulls a sucker punch.

[Darth Wong]

Miranda?

Wing phasers more powerful, weapons pod... maybe Starfleet was phasing out its Constitutions.

It masses less than a Constitution, which means less space for the powerplant as well as less cargo, which makes me doubt any claim that it was more powerful or had an equivalent endurance. The fact Kahn had to sneak up on Enterprise and get in a few hits before its shields could be raised doesn't instill any confidence in me over the design. If Kirk had followed regulations it's doubtful Reliant would have been such a terror, but then we wouldn't have had a movie.

Starfleet was phasing out its Connies... in favour of the Excelsiors. Mirandas are little more than glorified destroyers.

Firepower wise the Miranda has the relative advantage over the Constitution. Better firing arcs, more torpedo capacity, relative equal phaser capacity. Might have a smaller power plant, but its also smaller in size to compensate on the issue of shields. The Miranda is capable for what it is, but lacks the endurance in combat and range given its smaller size.

In a straight up fight the Miranda would have probably a 50/50 chance of beating a Constitution. The problem is Khan doesn't know how to captain a Starship nor does he truly comprehend its strengths and weaknesses. Worse, Khan doesn't want a 50/50 chance. He wants his best chance at victory. So he pulls a sucker punch.

You know, Alyeska, the thing that's always bothered me about the way you describe Federation ships is that you act as if you have numbers, and you don't. How the fuck do you know that a Miranda has a 50/50 chance of beating a Constitution? Counting the bubbles on its hull? Pure guesstimation about power output vs shielding? You do the same thing with all Fed ships; you literally make guesses about how powerful it is, based on how it looks. And it's not just you; this disease is endemic among the Trek fan community. They take gut-level responses to the way things look, and then they dress them up with numbers as if they actually have some kind of empirical basis.

[Alyeska]

They have the appearance of relatively equal firepower. Constitution probably bests it in the phaser department due to available power while the Miranda can fire torpedoes aft while the Constitution can't. Miranda has less surface area on shields allowing for less power to potentialy produce equal shields to the constitution. Toss in the Constitution having greater endurance from its size. So I was being a little generous on the Miranda's favor since I didn't add in the Constitution Endurance. Still comparable enough that the captain can make a big difference, which it did in TWOK since Khan can't compete against an experienced Starfleet captain in a straight up fight.

And you know what Mike? There is little else to do. No canon resource books detailing the ships. The non-canon ones rarely agree on the facts as it is. So I could say "we don't really know", but then it makes all discussion kinda pointless since we have nowhere to go. So I make a few assumptions bassed on some known points. Stofsk more or less did the same thing I did.

[brianeyci]

For the record, the reason I said "wing phasers more powerful" was that I heard someone saying something in PST about that awhile back, about some kind of behind the scenes thing or director's cut. I am not sure about that now, you're right appearances are deceiving. The first time I saw TWOK I thought the Miranda was more powerful than the Connie just because its weapons pod looked cooler and it had "two phaser banks instead of one" with its wing phasers instead of the Connie's forward ball turret, but that was when I was like, 12 .

One thing about judging Khan's performance in TWOK was Khan wasn't shooting to kill in the first battle.

[Darth Wong]

They have the appearance of relatively equal firepower. Constitution probably bests it in the phaser department due to available power while the Miranda can fire torpedoes aft while the Constitution can't. Miranda has less surface area on shields allowing for less power to potentialy produce equal shields to the constitution. Toss in the Constitution having greater endurance from its size. So I was being a little generous on the Miranda's favor since I didn't add in the Constitution Endurance. Still comparable enough that the captain can make a big difference, which it did in TWOK since Khan can't compete against an experienced Starfleet captain in a straight up fight.

Wow, more qualitative bullshit.

And you know what Mike? There is little else to do. No canon resource books detailing the ships. The non-canon ones rarely agree on the facts as it is. So I could say "we don't really know", but then it makes all discussion kinda pointless since we have nowhere to go. So I make a few assumptions bassed on some known points. Stofsk more or less did the same thing I did.

So if you don't know, just make it up? If you're going to pull that shit, you should at least put a disclaimer before your made-up figures to say that you pulled them out of your ass.

[Alyeska]

Yep, I pulled "Miranda has less surface area" out of my ass. I stated the facts and gave my opinion. I didn't initialy state the facts in my first post because they were largely covered by other posts in the thread.

[Darth Wong]

Yep, I pulled "Miranda has less surface area" out of my ass.

Do not fuck with me, you worthless little uneducated no-science no-math pissant dipshit. Your ability to participate in these debates is buttressed solely by the fact that you know how to operate a goddamned computer keyboard, because you have precious few other relevant abilities. Saying that it has less surface area does precisely dick to prove that the ratio of its powerplant output to shield surface area is the same, which is what you went on to conclude.

I stated the facts and gave my opinion. I didn't initialy state the facts in my first post because they were largely covered by other posts in the thread.

It takes quite the ignorant little fuckwad to believe that you can generate a number with a denominator and no numerator.

[brianeyci]

Well if you go straight by the numbers, and assume that Reliant was doing her best, Sean Robertson, Star Trek and Babylon 5 calculation god, figured a 30 kT phaser from TOS (the scene with the whole D7 disappearing). Then you could take the exact same technique Sean did with calculating the minimum firepower of a Shadow warship... the Narn cruiser a Shadow warship cut in half, instead apply it to however thick the midsection of the Enterprise was and assume the Reliant was doing its best. So if I didn't fuck something up that's 4.19e2 TW phasers versus the site's calculation of 1-10 TW phasers (I just went straight from 30 kT to TW and took the 10 TW from the main site, I assume that was what was done with the 5 cubic meters per second cutting assumption). So a Reliant would not appear to be a match for a Constitution since it is two orders of magnitude off, maybe three.

But again Khan wasn't shooting to kill so the whole thing goes out the window. And if Constitutions and Reliants used the same torpedoes, it again makes it uncertain.

I am also thinking of the scene in DS9 where a Cardassian phaser punches clean through a Miranda. Could calculate a lower limit for Cardassian phasers, using the same Sean Robertson technique assuming iron hull and 95% air, and a lower limit for the Miranda's hull.

[Skylon]

Do you think that there was another five year mission (or at least, some sort of regular duty) after the events of The Motion Picture, as perhaps portrayed by the novels and comic books? Or was Enterprise immediately pressed into training service?

Personally, I'm inclined to think that there must have been something between TMP and TWOK; for Starfleet to totally rebuild a ship only to immediately turn around and consign it to training duty seems a bit absurd to me.

Well, a good number of years takes place between TMP and TWoK (I think the official sources put it at somewhere between 10 and 15 years, maybe more).

I'd guess at least one five-year mission was conducted after the refit, possibly two, with some other assignments in there.

It's also possible the academy stint for Enterprise could have been a temporary thing, a light duty prior to an overhaul. After the whole Khan debacle Starfleet might have decided to cancel the refit though and retire the ship due to repair costs.

[brianeyci]

Uh, in TSFS they did want to cancel the refit and retire the ship, but Kirk flew it to Genesis and lost it a Bird of Prey remember?

[Stofsk]

Firepower wise the Miranda has the relative advantage over the Constitution. Better firing arcs, more torpedo capacity, relative equal phaser capacity.

More torpedo capacity? The torpedo 'pod' doesn't look so special. I say at best the Miranda and Connie have an equal capacity, because I don't see how you can assume one is greater than the other.

Although we never see the Miranda fire torpedos in rapid succession like we see the Enterprise do so in ST3. Yes, the Miranda has rear-firing capability... that's only useful for running away. The Enterprise appears able to bring more firepower to bear on its forward arc, which is more useful in combat.

Might have a smaller power plant, but its also smaller in size to compensate on the issue of shields. The Miranda is capable for what it is, but lacks the endurance in combat and range given its smaller size.

A Miranda is a saucer section with nacelles. A Connie has that fat, juicy secondary hull which is where its powerplant is located. The only thing we've got to go on is this: the Connie masses more than a Miranda. This suggests it has a bigger powerplant, and greater cargo space. The two ships are not equal.

In a straight up fight the Miranda would have probably a 50/50 chance of beating a Constitution. The problem is Khan doesn't know how to captain a Starship nor does he truly comprehend its strengths and weaknesses. Worse, Khan doesn't want a 50/50 chance. He wants his best chance at victory. So he pulls a sucker punch.

He wants his best chance at victory? That's why he stopped to gloat?

I don't see how you can justify your opinion that a Miranda would have a 50/50 chance in a straight fight. We see in WoK a rigged fight, and the Miranda still loses. Later in the movie when things are equalised by fighting in the Mutara nebula, Reliant gets whipped.

[brianeyci]

One thing I always wondered was, without the TNG style phaser strips, how the ball turrets of the Constitution could ever hope to hit swarms of Bird of Prey.

The Constitutions were meant to fly in formation like in the M5 episode. But even still it would not be too difficult for a swarm of BOP to wheel around like they did in TSFS (Man for you old timers seeing that BOP waste the Merchantman for the first time must have been really cool) and hit a squadron of Constitution from behind. Meanwhile the Constitution formation tries to move with thrusters or impulse like a beached whale.

And then the D7's move in for the kill.

"Clean their chronometers" indeed.

[Uraniun235]

For the record, the reason I said "wing phasers more powerful" was that I heard someone saying something in PST about that awhile back, about some kind of behind the scenes thing or director's cut.

I don't remember any of the interviews on the TWOK Director's Edition DVD mentioning it, although it's been awhile since I watched those so I could be wrong.

I know that a lot of the fan-based material in the early to mid 80's described the wing phasers as "megaphasers", although something that seems telling to me is that these wing phasers were never seen again on any subsequent Federation starship. I cannot help but wonder if they're basically the same basic phaser, only mounted in a different place; it would certainly help put it closer to the Constitution-refit in terms of total phasers, which has phasers mounted on the stardrive section as well (four on the belly and two above the shuttlebay).

[Alyeska]

More torpedo capacity? The torpedo 'pod' doesn't look so special. I say at best the Miranda and Connie have an equal capacity, because I don't see how you can assume one is greater than the other.

If we take the visual appearance of the torpedo launcher, there is relative similarity. Failing that, in the Dominion War we saw similar refire rates from a Miranda escorting the Defiant as compared to the Enterprise A when firing on Chang's BoP.

Although we never see the Miranda fire torpedos in rapid succession like we see the Enterprise do so in ST3. Yes, the Miranda has rear-firing capability... that's only useful for running away. The Enterprise appears able to bring more firepower to bear on its forward arc, which is more useful in combat.

If all they do is face each other off, then yes. But if either ship manuevers or moves, this gives the opportunity for possible flank shots. The Enterprise has 7 forward phasers on its saucer, 4 topside, 3 bottom. The Miranda has 6 in the saucer, 3 top and 3 bottom. It also has the 2 rollbar phasers which have superior foward coverage over any saucer phaser (at the cost of vertical coverage). The rollbar phasers have rear emitters as well.

A Miranda is a saucer section with nacelles. A Connie has that fat, juicy secondary hull which is where its powerplant is located. The only thing we've got to go on is this: the Connie masses more than a Miranda. This suggests it has a bigger powerplant, and greater cargo space. The two ships are not equal.

In theory the Miranda could have its powerplant horizontaly layed. Views of the Constitution itself show much of the powerplant is horizontal with some vertical elements. That big secondary section also has a lot of other things in it including a big shuttlebay. Both ships have the same style nacelles. Now, I haven't disagreed that the Constitution likely has greater available power. I just pointed out that it doesn't necessarily mean less shields due to surface area (though I did concede the Miranda phasers could be less powerful).

He wants his best chance at victory? That's why he stopped to gloat?

That would be arrogance. He did cripple the Enterprise. The Enterprise apparently couldn't fire torpedoes, lost main power, and never raised any shields. The initial setup was massively in his favor and he threw it away to gloat.

I don't see how you can justify your opinion that a Miranda would have a 50/50 chance in a straight fight. We see in WoK a rigged fight, and the Miranda still loses. Later in the movie when things are equalised by fighting in the Mutara nebula, Reliant gets whipped.

The only reason the Reliant lost the initial fight is because Khan choose not to kill the Enterprise outright and it cost him. He could have finished Enterprise without incident. As it is, it was the prefix code that really cost him since it made him vulnerable. Without that, Enterprise could hardly have scratched him. The second battle involved the ships technical capabilities being equalized in most regards. What was left most important was the crew capabilities. Kirk demonstrated that Khan didn't know tactics worth dick and the Enterprise had a better trained crew more familar with their ship.

[Patrick Degan]

Khan also wanted the specs for the Genesis Device, which he assumed were in the Enterprise's main computer. So there was a reason to simply not blow the ship out of space that instant.

[Uraniun235]

One thing I always wondered was, without the TNG style phaser strips, how the ball turrets of the Constitution could ever hope to hit swarms of Bird of Prey.

Well, the ball turrets can probably turn and swivel and... you know, aim at things. Plus, there are two phaser turrets sitting right above the shuttlebay; any ship that came in directly behind a Constitution would find itself under fire.

Another thing is that the captain of a Bird of Prey believed that a Constitution-refit outgunned his ship by an order of magnitude, so a few BOPs slipping in behind a whole squadron of Constitutions probably wouldn't be terribly fatal.

And, if we're talking a whole squadron of Con-refits (oh my fucking god if such a scene were filmed in high quality I would have to change my pants) then the squadron could manuever such that some of them were covering each other's asses should their rear phasers prove inadequate to deal with the BOPs.

[Alyeska]

And, if we're talking a whole squadron of Con-refits (oh my fucking god if such a scene were filmed in high quality I would have to change my pants) then the squadron could manuever such that some of them were covering each other's asses should their rear phasers prove inadequate to deal with the BOPs.

Thats the best I can offer.

[Uraniun235]

More torpedo capacity? The torpedo 'pod' doesn't look so special. I say at best the Miranda and Connie have an equal capacity, because I don't see how you can assume one is greater than the other.

If we take the visual appearance of the torpedo launcher, there is relative similarity. Failing that, in the Dominion War we saw similar refire rates from a Miranda escorting the Defiant as compared to the Enterprise A when firing on Chang's BoP.

Enterprise pulls off a faster firing rate (with one operational tube) in The Search for Spock than her successor achieved in The Undiscovered Country.

[Alyeska]

More torpedo capacity? The torpedo 'pod' doesn't look so special. I say at best the Miranda and Connie have an equal capacity, because I don't see how you can assume one is greater than the other.

If we take the visual appearance of the torpedo launcher, there is relative similarity. Failing that, in the Dominion War we saw similar refire rates from a Miranda escorting the Defiant as compared to the Enterprise A when firing on Chang's BoP.

Enterprise pulls off a faster firing rate (with one operational tube) in The Search for Spock than her successor achieved in The Undiscovered Country.

She fired only two torpedoes from one launcher IIRC. TUC had a slower overall refire rate but the Enterprise fired more. There is the reload rate to consider.